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Originally posted by depthoffield
You can search "debris in space" with google and find 5000000 results too, and growing too. So what? Do you think "regular Joe" search this? So, for them is a tottaly missed point.
But "debris" is a more dedicated and mundane world, and doesn't attract.
Originally posted by Funklestiltzkin
Playing games is your purpose?
Originally posted by spymaster
The item [s] contained within this video have their own power, as they can be seen manoeuvreing in 3[three] different directions, debris and similar will only ever move in one direction and will Not change course.
Top Post
Originally posted by RFBurns
If you guys are trying to tell us that ice particles and dust particles (again define "particle) all over the place up there that are large enough to be seen at either 20 feet or further out, then the shuttle and ISS and every other satellite up there would be slamming into these things consistantly, because according to the ice particle junkies...thats all there is up there in all these videos.
Unless all these ice particles and dust particles magically move out of the way of a speeding shuttle going 18,000 mph before smashing through the windows or the hull, I would say that the ice particles are so tiny and so INSIGNIFICANT to not be of any concern at 18,000 mph that if one were to hit a window or the hull, it would simply vaporize on impact.
Originally posted by RFBurns
The cameras can barely pick them up 20 or so feet away much less be picking them up 80 some odd miles out.
[edit on 11-3-2009 by RFBurns]
Originally posted by JimOberg
Originally posted by RFBurns
If you guys are trying to tell us that ice particles and dust particles (again define "particle) all over the place up there that are large enough to be seen at either 20 feet or further out, then the shuttle and ISS and every other satellite up there would be slamming into these things consistantly, because according to the ice particle junkies...thats all there is up there in all these videos.
Unless all these ice particles and dust particles magically move out of the way of a speeding shuttle going 18,000 mph before smashing through the windows or the hull, I would say that the ice particles are so tiny and so INSIGNIFICANT to not be of any concern at 18,000 mph that if one were to hit a window or the hull, it would simply vaporize on impact.
RF, sometimes I am compelled to wonder if you apply your intelligence on purpose to deliberately MISunderstand the contrary opinions being expressed.
Originally posted by JimOberg
NOBODY to my knowledge has ever postulated that the space shuttle is zooming THROUGH a stationary cloud of debris, ice, whatever, at 18,000 mph. Heck, nobody I know could even imagination how such a cloud could exist in space just beyond the atmosphere -- are you suggesting that dust and ice and junk can just float around out there in the zero-G vacume waiting to be rammed by orbiting satellites? Your wording sure seems to suggest that -- so please clarify.
Originally posted by JimOberg
What I have suggested is that debris frequently comes off space shuttles and floats along with it, sometimes getting hit with plumes of various origins and effluents, sometimes just letting air drag sweep them slowly away into lower orbits. None of this shuttle-origin stuff is going at harmful impact speed with the shuttle.
Originally posted by JimOberg
We know there's lots of this stuff because witnesses (that may be a difficult concept for you on this subject matter -- it means somebody who directly saw the material or video of it in real time -- you really ought to try to find out what they have to say, if you dare) see it and talk about it, and lots of videos show it drifting close enough to pass in front of shuttle and station hardware. Like, really really close.
Originally posted by JimOberg
This kind of stuff can also wind up looking like the famous 'space UFO videos' -- their appearance and motion is indistinguishable, leading to the conclusion that there's no evidence to suggest they are anything else. Now, they could be cleverly-disguised alien vehicles -- that can't be disproven -- but they look like ordinary space junk to those who know how ordinary space junk looks and behaves.
Originally posted by JimOberg
But the stuff isn't just floating idly, waiting for a streaking shuttle to ram into it. It's floating along with the shuttle at essentially the same velocity, because it came from the shuttle. How is that not clear?
Originally posted by JimOberg
And how -- please explain -- you imagine that particles could just naturally float motionless out there in near-earth space? You can't be serious.
Originally posted by JimOberg
PS -- I was teasing about the misspelling of 'vacume'. Sorry, couldn't resist. Real space experts know how to spell it.
Originally posted by Phage
Yes, there is danger from space junk. Witness what happened with the ISS today.
Originally posted by Phage
The ice particles and debris seen around the shuttle comes from the shuttle
Originally posted by JimOberg
Originally posted by RFBurns
The cameras can barely pick them up 20 or so feet away much less be picking them up 80 some odd miles out.
[edit on 11-3-2009 by RFBurns]
It's never been in dispute. The issue is -- what is the evidence any of these dots is 80 miles, or even 8 miles, or 800 feet, away?
Originally posted by JimOberg
The main argument I've heard is that some of them 'appear' in mid-screen with Earth in the background, and the presumption is that this means they were occluded by something out near Earth's surface -- such as clouds -- and the 'appearance' is proof they are out at the range of Earth's surface -- hundreds of miles.
Originally posted by JimOberg
My counterargument is that sudden appearance is not proof that the object was previously occluded by the distant Earth (or clouds). It's equally plausible -- and much more common, in other videos -- for the 'appearance' to be caused by emergence of a nearby particle from the shuttle's shadow.
Originally posted by JimOberg
Now, there is a 'proof' that this hypothesis is by far the more likely explanation.
Originally posted by JimOberg
Here's how it goes: when you actually determine WHEN the 'UFO videos' were taken and the actual illumination and orbital conditions at the time of the event (stuff that learhaug denounces as useless and distracting info, or in RF's term, 'clutter'), a curious and highly unlikely coincidence becomes apparent.
Originally posted by JimOberg
The shuttle's darkened umbra only exists for a minute or two every orbit, as the shuttle emerges from Earth's shadow but before passing across the terminator and overflying sunlit surface -- from which reflected sunlight fully illuminates anything within the umbra.
Originally posted by JimOberg
Funny thing is, the famous videos with 'appearing' UFOs... an undeniably weird and unearthly lighting effect ... all seem to be taken ONLY during those unique and rare intervals of the missions. Not in full darkness. Not in full sunlight. Just at dawn (dusk is physically possible too, but the MLE camera pointing doesn't get set up until after full sunset). No other time.
Originally posted by JimOberg
I suggest this strongly implies causality, not coincidence. Stuff appears during these particular intervals, and gets seen and recorded and identified as UFOs. And by NOT understanding the illumination context, by closing their eyes to a fuller understanding of the entire situation, naive observers misjudge what they are 'seeing'.
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by RFBurns
The ice forms around the shuttle as the result of a water dump. The ice eventually sublimates and does not remain in orbit as particles. There are not clouds of ice but there is a lot of junk.
Yes, there is danger from space junk. Witness what happened with the ISS today.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Originally posted by spymaster
Excellent piece of footage, one that i have "laid my eyes on before", but nonetheless still "brilliant! No way at all is this "space-debris" of any kind.
Originally posted by JimOberg
spymaster, i've been away -- what link are you referring to, please.
Originally posted by JimOberg
RF: "You know, unless you been sleeping under a "Mars/Moon/ice/debris" rock, there have been plenty of astronauts from the Apollo era, including the Gemini era (John Glenn), who have stated there are far more things up there than your typical ice/debris/junk. "
Uh, RF, John Glenn was 'Mercury Era', not 'Gemini Era'. Slight difference.
Now, what do YOU say he said about 'far more things up there'?
As I recall, he was the first orbiting pilot who spotted ice particles -- coming out of his flash evaporator, as it turned out. Shuttles also have flash evaporators.
Why did you bring his name up? What do you claim he helps you prove?
Originally posted by Majorion
Originally posted by Phage
The ice particles and debris seen around the shuttle comes from the shuttle
I have seen DOF's illustration of dust/ice particles dispersing from a shuttle, and they behaved and looked nothing like the objects we are discussing regarding STS-114. And up till now, even after 50-plus pages of debate on this issue, I haven't seen any conclusive evidence to support the notion that these objects are ice particles.
Originally posted by Majorion
He's referring directly to this footage;