A Question of Time

I've been thinking a lot about time lately in what some might call an obscure or even ignorant way. My main thoughts relate the actual direction of time itself.

I guess when we think of time in the classical sense, we see it running forwards. Imagine for a second a person swimming downstream with the flow of a river and that's how I see the classical theory of how time flows and how we move within the 'currents' of time.

However, lately I've been questioning where time flows from. Does it have a source from where it flows and does it have a destination? It was then that I visualized time flowing a completely different way. Imagine, if you will, a treadmill and imagine the belt of the treadmill being a representation of time. The belt itself runs backward but the person on the treadmill belt moves forward... The analogy being that time comes from the future ahead of us, passes us by, and is then behind us becoming the past.

Could the future move toward us instead of us moving toward the future? How would this affect our quantum reality if time did indeed run the opposite way to which we think? Or could the choices we make project slightly into the future so when we meet that future, quantum reality has already changed to reflect the choices we made.

Of course I'm talking about a process here that would be so quick (nano seconds) that the human mind could not even perceive it happening.

I just find it hard to rectify the future becoming the past with time running forward. The only other way I can visualize that is if time is static and we move across it like the head of a VCR.

Please note, I'm not saying any of this is the case. I would just like to talk about the possibilities of it and how we could know or confirm either way. Another thing I would like to ask is would this affect entropy, i.e. could entropy still work under this model?

I have many other questions about time but I will save them for another thread as I do not wish to confuse the focus of this one.

Best,
IRM

I really like the question you brought up about time being the tread of a treadmill, and us being the person who is running atop of it.

I like this theory, because that would mean that the passage of time is uncontrollable, and we are all just "running to stay caught up".

I think you may be on to something here. I wish I could elaborate more, but my brain is too full of theories right now. I will write more tomorrow.

If we can take a look at Newton's 3rd law of motion, it states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This being said, if we move toward time, then yes, time moves towards us, as well.

HOWEVER, time is a human existential concept.

Well I recall reading an old theory of existence that everything started with the Big Bang and would continue out until the force of the explosion would no longer be greater than the gravity of the singularity from which the Big Bang originated. At that point we would begin the Great Collapse and everything would reverse, including time.

The idea behind it was an explanation of precognition because this Bang and Collapse had been played over and over so many times that we would recall things from all the times it had been replayed.

I guess it was an interesting thought at the time, since this is an old theory indeed.

Gday IRM
before I settle down to dinner and a wine... mind you I should post after the wine to make more sense on this topic
I once dated a Prof of Quantum Physics, and I need to note he was in no way religious or spiritual.
He explained a possibilty regarding time in simple terms for me
Im not sure if its right or not. but it is considred 'physical' by him.

Time is what defines the 3rd dimension.

The dimensions are possible to move through.

Time is an illusion.

Imagine if you walk into a art galley and you notice a couple of pictures from ancient greece.
You then return to the gallery and notice other pictures from the renaissance,
Another trip and you notice the floor is carpet and the ceiling is white. another trip and you modern art on the other walls...and so on. We have different experiences of it, but the room and all thats in it is always there.
Its our experiencing the different aspects of the room that makes us experience time. And so the 3rd dimension is always here, and we come in and out we experience time through different moments, different things, but the 'room' was always there.

If we infact have a spirit (im not getting into a religious discussion that sucks) we go to either the 2nd, 4th or 5th. The 2nd he thinks is chaos, like a TV static that once you project a image comes through, and that image for us is the 3rd dimension...

Oh cr*p Im useless at describing it, Im a archaeoloist by training, not a physicist....but it really made sense, I'll email him and see if he can re-explain it...keep going about your business people nothing to see here ...





[edit on 17-2-2009 by zazzafrazz]

Originally posted by Schmidt1989
If we can take a look at Newton's 3rd law of motion, it states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This being said, if we move toward time, then yes, time moves towards us, as well.

That's very interesting. I know about the law of motion but I hadn't seen it applied to time in such a manner.

HOWEVER, time is a human existential concept.

I've always wondered about this myself... that time is a man made construct and may not exist in the way we think it does. When I was a child, I imagined that the universe was just a static space where 'things happened'... of course I was probably wrong!

Fascinating though!

IRM

reply to post by Ahabstar


I've always found the theory of a big crunch to be fascinating. I'm not sure what force would achieve this though... there's certainly not enough dark matter to get the job done.

Still it doesn't explain to me which way time actually runs.. and if it's remotely possible it could run the opposite of what we think.

IRM

Originally posted by zazzafrazz

Oh cr*p Im useless at describing it, Im a archaeoloist by training, not a physicist....but it really made sense, I'll email him and see if he can re-explain it...keep going about your business people nothing to see here ...

LOL zazzafrazz!

I liked where you were going with it all. I was intrigued! I'm looking forward to hearing your full explanation!

Until then....




IRM

where does time flow from?
does it have a destination?

past? future?
how much time have we as a species spent pondering your very thoughts?

my spin on time.

time is the gauge by which we measure development.
carve it up as you may, seconds, days, eons...

the only time that truely exists is NOW (and this will vary depending on when you read this....)

Originally posted by Schmidt1989
If we can take a look at Newton's 3rd law of motion, it states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This being said, if we move toward time, then yes, time moves towards us, as well.

HOWEVER, time is a human existential concept.

Newton's 3rd Law applies to physical objects.

Time is a physical concept.

Concerning the OP...

Time's source is still questionable; sometimes when I think of time dilation, it reminds me of doppler effect of waves, I then try to imagine time as a wave or torrent. Thats highly speculative though.

Originally posted by Zeus187
the only time that truely exists is NOW (and this will vary depending on when you read this....)

I completely understand what you're saying but when I think of it that way, I have to also believe that time spontaneously manifests in this briefest of moments we call the 'now' and then spontaneously disappears back out of existence.

Surely there must be some mechanism before the now that allows time to manifest? That moment must have been generated by something and from somewhere .. and when that moment passes, where does it go? It existed so it must have gone somewhere. Back to where it came from perhaps so it could be regenerated as the next 'now'?

I don't know.. just thought I'd ask!

IRM

Technically, you're not able to percieve "Now".

"Now" is the fastest thing in the Universe, faster than light, your brain isn't capable of streaming real-time by that speed. As such, what you experience is the past, because the "Now" is too fast.

Think of a camera on your computer...

When you move your hand fast enough, the camera's stream is a bit slower than the movement, so you reach where you're headed before the camera can capture it.

Originally posted by ChronMan
Technically, you're not able to perceive "Now".

"Now" is the fastest thing in the Universe, faster than light, your brain isn't capable of streaming real-time by that speed. As such, what you experience is the past, because the "Now" is too fast.

I completely agree! I kind of touched on this in the Op.

Of course I'm talking about a process here that would be so quick (nano seconds) that the human mind could not even perceive it happening.

However, our perception aside, the 'now' still exists no matter how brief it's existence. The question is still open IMHO... where did it come from, what generated it, when was it generated and where did it go?

IRM

[edit on 17/2/09 by InfaRedMan]

Greetings IRM

I came across lyrics from Canibus' 1998 "Lucifer Project" that has a recorded version as well as a banned version - the following is the first part of the banned version that speaks about gravity - thought it gave it an interesting twist to say the least - and since you started this post it seemed appropriate to share it here - enjoy - I'm interested in everyone's thoughts. I don't know this guys music at all, my children do - I personally found the lyrics of both versions really intriguing

Banned Version:

"Yo, the holy script from Genesis 1-26 says, "Let us make man in our image under our likeness."
First of all who's THEY?
You see if God was truly a single entity that's not what he would say.
We as the Elohim, Gods and Goddesses possess a marvelously monsterous subconscious.
Life forms that speak, in very high pitched sounds and squeaks
Short staccato clicks and beeps.
A highly advanced form of speech.
Even though to us it seems like they only chatterin they teeth.
They used to swim deep in the oceans beneath.
Til they fins transformed into limbs and they started to creep.
They they evolved into mammals with feet.
And walked right from the shorlines onto the beach.
They used gravity, cause it's actually the only force around that could slow time and the speed of light down.
The energy grid network, opened the gateway from Earth to any point in the universe. Livin organisms and various, geomagnetic gravitational, anomaly areas.
Space expedition teams in the lunar regions reported seein' decapyramids and tetrahedrons.
Liquid filled shoes, is what they used to walk across the moon without leavin a clue of where they been for the past twenty-three billion years ..."

Edit to add comment -
The idea that gravity is used to slow down time is something that I've never heard of before but it sure makes sense - his other lyrics seem to be dead on, so presume he's gotten this premise from somewhere too - Hmmm....

[edit on 17-2-2009 by kshaund]

reply to post by kshaund


Hey kshaund!

Long Time No See! I'm honored to have you contribute in this humble thread.

Most definitely interesting lyrics! Specially for a rap song? He's truly 'kickin' the science' as they like to say.

Though I'm certainly no scientist, it does make a degree of sense. We know positively that gravity can bend light and in the case of black holes, devour it completely - so perhaps it can also manipulate time?

I know speed effects time... or at least the way that we perceive it. I often wonder what the true speed of time actually is given we are in a solar system that's speeding through the galaxy that's speeding through the universe. Surely that effects the time we experience.

If everything that was moving in the universe came to a grinding halt, how would that effect time or the way we perceive it?

I'm sure someone will say it's all relative though...

Thanks again.. and great to see you!

IRM

[edit on 17/2/09 by InfaRedMan]

I suppose if time ceases at the speed of light, then anything slower than light is where time begins.....which puts our present 1 second in the past.

[edit on 17/2/09 by John Matrix]

reply to post by InfaRedMan


Hey there - Yeah, I was totally impressed with his lyrics - and the concept of gravity being a means to slow time - I don't have a lot of success wrapping my head around time and space being illusion because that just means we're extra limited here which - of course - just adds to my overall frustration of even being here in the first place !

I've also heard contradicting theories and claims about whether or not time travel is in fact possible -

Can't wait for the first edition of 'Life for Dummies' ...

Originally posted by kshaund
I don't have a lot of success wrapping my head around time and space being illusion because that just means we're extra limited here which - of course - just adds to my overall frustration of even being here in the first place !

Are you speaking about a holographic universe? I can't wrap my head around that one either... in the sense that I can't believe it's true. There really is no need for a holographic universe.... It's a highly convoluted theory if ever there was one. Just like String Theory, Branes, Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Super Symmetry etc... I'm sure it's all far more simple than all of that.

Occam's Razor! (my brain hurts) Z

IRM

[edit on 18/2/09 by InfaRedMan]

occams razor? IRM!!!

Have simple theories a higher record of being correct than more complex ones? If that was the case we would still think the world was flat.

It was used before the 20TH century, but we have since relied more on logic, pragmatism, and probability to explore.....

Simple theory being most likely right, just means:
'It makes my head hurt...I dont want to think about it too much!!'

Cmon IRM!

[edit on 17-2-2009 by zazzafrazz]

heres a video that talks about different ideas about what time actually is how it actually flows and i think the idea that time and space grow out of the past into the future like grains of sand sounds reasonable

Google Video Link

www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 18-2-2009 by constantwonder]