Good question about hell

There is no "hell" since practically everything in the scriptures are metaphorical!
God IS unconditional LOVE!!! (for this is 'perfect' love!)
and someone said about a woman has unconditional love when she keeps going back to an abusing husband... that is not entirely true, battered wife syndrom comes to mind. We take flesh to a too high of a value in both pain/suffering and joy/happyness, remember the flesh profits not. 90-100 years in life is no where near 'justice' when it comes to eternity. The poster who spoke of punishment from an unconditional loving parent is very true. But we can only parallel earth and Heaven, cause I am sure that we are in a different state of being when not incarnated here or on some planet.
Ziggy da man!!
www.youtube.com...

Peace and Harmony through Unconditional LOVE!

Originally posted by constantine70
someone said about a woman has unconditional love when she keeps going back to an abusing husband... that is not entirely true, battered wife syndrom comes to mind.

listen to what your saying...

unconditional love. love without conditions. this means that no matter what you do, no matter how disgusting of a person you are, no matter how much you hate god, your claiming that he will still love you.

that is the most contradicting, illogical thing i have ever heard. and thats without adding justice to the equation.

if you say that god is just too then it makes no sense at all. how can a god who is perfect in justice love someone who is disgusting?

think... it doesnt make sense.

reply to post by moocowman


agree

reply to post by miriam0566


Mabey love and Justice to Thee is the exact things being played out here, a path that leads one to finally accepting the spirit (true nature) over the darkness (material nature). Mabey Justice is layed as a path that makes sure there is a way for all and the love you have trouble understanding is like a love of mother and child, no matter how much the childs light darkens, the mother always keeps hope that her love for that child will bring he/she to be a better person.

If it is unconditional love, that never loose hope and makes sure there is a path for all to return, then one also finds themselves investigating the idea of reincarnation and the divine using the darkness (material) to sift and measure the vibration of spirit.

Love wouldnt be a choice, but a will, a function, a natural order that does not sway.

Just thoughts
LV

Originally posted by hardcoremusiclover
We all know that heaven is reward for embracing God.

But if your a terrible evil person, then why would you be tortured in hell? Wouldn't the devil want to embrace you? Reward you for being such an evil person?

The idea that God rules heaven and Satan rules hell is extrabiblical and has nothing to do with the "truth" we rely on, but relies on pur fiction written a couple of hundred years ago, by fiction writers like Dante and Milton. If you read the bible Satan is God's right hand man in questions of sin. Satan means opponent or enemy and holds a key role in the courts of God where he acts as accuser. One day he will be cast in hell in favor of a better way of knowing who is evil and who isnot. If that's even a question worth answering....

[edit on 18/2/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Bless the one who can see the light in the darkest of souls.....

Even the disgusting ones who fell to the temptation of flesh...hope remains and love for that soul will find a way for all. A hardening of hearts is what I call this place...and I believe one can come here many times....into the cycle of 'time'.

So hell could be exactly that, the plain where we 'feel' separated, but are not. A place that one can find themselves as a 'one' separate from many others, the tempts of being 'special' smarter, better, different, less then, ect...are a part of this world but its an illusion. When one sees it as we are all of a ONE self somewhere outside of this time...then you love and forgive, even the ones that seem ugly, evil, whatever. Hell is somewhere with chaos and confusion...I think Earth is a pretty good pick of choice for that kind a place. But its not a eternal damnation, its experiencing the plain of matter filled with spirit in separate forms, cycling together.

Just adding thoughts
LV

Here is the thing. You are here now and alive with whatever blessings or misfortunes you've experienced.

You are fretting over a place that only exists in a place that not one person can confirm or deny as an actual witness.

Since this is the case, what you or anyone else choses to believe these places to be are strictly personal, be it the pope or your next door neighbor.

I always find it funny that in order for something to be confirmed true, according to some religions, witnesses must attest. I believe this is a good practice, but one that no one ad hears too.

People preach things that they truly don't know and that is the line you must stand at...What do you know for sure, now in life. Start there and see only what is real, not fantasy. It is easy to get drawn into superstions and fear but always remember. All you are accountable for in life and in death is your life and what you choose to do with it.

If you believe in God, then start with his dependable "truth" recalling to yourself, truth is real and can be seen and talked about and known by anyone, not secret societies. God doesn't lift those up in generations but lets those die. Stay in truth God or not and you will be "set free".

Jesus said, "know the truth and be set free"...Free is Free, not "undergod" as that is not truly free, but being God to the betterment of his body...the human race.

A pen is just a tool to write with, to hold the ink. It funnels the dye and directs it in to shapes one can recognize, but the message isn't signed "Pen"...more likely Teller.

Peace

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Mabey love and Justice to Thee is the exact things being played out here, a path that leads one to finally accepting the spirit (true nature) over the darkness (material nature). Mabey Justice is layed as a path that makes sure there is a way for all and the love you have trouble understanding is like a love of mother and child, no matter how much the childs light darkens, the mother always keeps hope that her love for that child will bring he/she to be a better person.

lose the rosy colored glasses and open your eyes.

there are people that are irredeemable. they are self centered and haughty, lacking mercy and ruthless. and they live among us. they go to work with you, they play with you. they interact with you whether you notice them or not.

they wont change how they feel. to them its ¨me, me, me, me, me¨. to them, happy are the meek, because they are easier to rip off.

i think its real noble for you to give them the benefit of the doubt, but political correctness ≠ correct.

even a mother will have limits in her love for her child. how do you think she will react after the child repeatedly hurts her without remorse?

unconditional love is not just. nor is it taught by the bible.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Mabey love and Justice to Thee is the exact things being played out here, a path that leads one to finally accepting the spirit (true nature) over the darkness (material nature). Mabey Justice is layed as a path that makes sure there is a way for all and the love you have trouble understanding is like a love of mother and child, no matter how much the childs light darkens, the mother always keeps hope that her love for that child will bring he/she to be a better person.

lose the rosy colored glasses and open your eyes.

there are people that are irredeemable. they are self centered and haughty, lacking mercy and ruthless. and they live among us. they go to work with you, they play with you. they interact with you whether you notice them or not.

adf

they wont change how they feel. to them its ¨me, me, me, me, me¨. to them, happy are the meek, because they are easier to rip off.

i think its real noble for you to give them the benefit of the doubt, but political correctness ≠ correct.

even a mother will have limits in her love for her child. how do you think she will react after the child repeatedly hurts her without remorse?

unconditional love is not just. nor is it taught by the bible.

You are missing the point of Mercy, which is in great foretitude (sp) in unconditional love. Look deeper and calculate both physical and spiritual, though the flesh profits nothing it does play a major role. Yes some are dark spirits and are necessary for teaching and to show the opposite of God... but to be truthful God is above good and evil, for they are both created by God.
Though we can not see nor pureify the goodness in man, God CAN do such things... to say otherwise is to say that God has not the power. Do you want to say that God does not have that type of power? I have said this before that you can take all of the evil in creation and put it against first light and see that it is the smallest nano existance compared to the universe that is God, and this analogy is lacking given maybe a better one would be the smallest form of matter up against a thousand universes back to back (still not doing justice here). I hope you understand what I mean. We can not judge man's heart, not even 'Hitlers' (hate to use this cliche) lol,
Peace and Harmony through Unconditional LOVE!

Originally posted by constantine70
You are missing the point of Mercy,

mercy is giving someone who wants a second chance, a second chance even though they dont deserve it.

a murderer sits on death row. he deserves to die and he knows it but he gets sick when he thinks about what he has done. he thinks, if he had to do it all over again, he wouldnt have been a monster.

that is a candidate for mercy. mercy doesnt cover over unrepentant gross sin.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Let me ask you a question, since you believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for your salvation, have you sinned? Has there been a day that has gone by, that you haven't sinned? Is there a particular sin in your life that you keep going around the mountain on, falling into it, more times than you care to acknowledge? (You do not have to answer this publicly, this is just a general question.)

What does Paul mean when he said, " Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me ." [Romans 7:17] Do you see how he is separating himself from sin?

What of this "willful sinning?" When you sin, you make the choice to sin, it is a willful choice you make. And, knowing how our human nature is, there is one sin that every believer is "struggling" with and, willfully falling into, several times over.

So, does this mean then "no more sacrifice remains for that believer?

reply to post by moocowman

In order for the insect to do the opposite of what it's doing, it must have an incentive to do so. But the incentive for it to do so, like everything else has to be created and we've agreed that the creator, is the creator of all that there is, and nothing cannot not be created, by the creator, or this would preclude omniscient s/omnipresence of the creator itself.

Okey dokey Miriam you agree, you also agree from logic each step that got us this far so we are in total agreement.

Here for some lays a slight problem , for this insect to operate/act/do anything of its own volition as described. This would immediately preclude the omniscience/omnipresence of it's creator, to which we both agree.

It could perhaps be imagined that the creator of all that there is could design a way that could allow the insect to act according to it's own volition.
But again this is impossible if the creator is to remain omnipotent/omniscient, as the creator will always be responsible for the design and cannot, not know the outcome of any event as previously agreed.

We could perhaps somehow imagine, a third party incentive for the insect to act contrary to its design. However this scenario would necessitate the preclusion of the creator being the creator of all that there is, as the third party could not be created by the creator.

Agree or Disagree ?

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by constantine70
You are missing the point of Mercy,

mercy is giving someone who wants a second chance, a second chance even though they dont deserve it.

a murderer sits on death row. he deserves to die and he knows it but he gets sick when he thinks about what he has done. he thinks, if he had to do it all over again, he wouldnt have been a monster.

that is a candidate for mercy. mercy doesnt cover over unrepentant gross sin.

Are you being the judge here? who is to make such claims as 'unrepentant gross sin'? We judge others in order to 'test' truths that we may take on ourselves, but when it comes to 'labeling' or 'judgment in whole' we should not do such a thing. You can not measure anything by Gods ruler since we do not posses such a ruler, and no scriptures are not that ruler.
Peace and Harmony through Unconditional LOVE!

Originally posted by moocowman
Here for some lays a slight problem , for this insect to operate/act/do anything of its own volition as described. This would immediately preclude the omniscience/omnipresence of it's creator, to which we both agree.

i agree, if the fly is only designed to act on stimuli provided by the creator, then the fly would not be capable of reacting to some third party stimuli

It could perhaps be imagined that the creator of all that there is could design a way that could allow the insect to act according to it's own volition.
But again this is impossible if the creator is to remain omnipotent/omniscient, as the creator will always be responsible for the design and cannot, not know the outcome of any event as previously agreed.

i disagree. in fact i suspect (if im reading you correctly) that you are making a jump.

we were talking about an insect that is designed with no freewill. now you are saying that if god designed that same insect with free will that this would conflict with his knowing what any outcomes would be, but (i suspect) you have not provided anything reasoning to back up that assumption.

We could perhaps somehow imagine, a third party incentive for the insect to act contrary to its design. However this scenario would necessitate the preclusion of the creator being the creator of all that there is, as the third party could not be created by the creator.

i agree. if a fly is designed to react only to stimuli provided by god, but then racted to a third party stimuli, it would preclude that the first conclusion (that this creator created all things) is not true

reply to post by miriam0566


And who says some dont deserve Mercy. Again, this idea basically involves a reincarnation of learning from life's former falls, possibly a soul being the victim of the crime in the next round. I know when I watched my mother seeing all the things she saw in her NDE, she looked at me very serious and said, 'we relearn everything'. This was right after she was talking about how she had to stand up for or against everyone that she has crossed paths with. So it seems, from that experience anyways, that we ourselves judge ourselves. When we are not ruled by the flesh, the humble actions are known by nature, and so also, your not so humble actions become prevalent to you.

How can you be so sure to know that God will loose hope or find anyone not worth saving, even if it happens through recycling? How do you know Thee's works are not that magnificant?

And a mother always will love the child, no matter what. Its a perfect sign to show, unconditional love conquers the deepest darkness. The mother may have negative feelings, but the love does not end.

Some have trouble seeing that the negative holds a purpose here and want to believe that God will fix that wrong. But....it is through Thee that this came to be and its not a mistake. I can only assume, that it is the way it was meant to be.

This kind of love, is not measurable. But Im sure you have felt it...when you go to Thee with a humble heart and feel that eternal love. Unless you are seeking a God that demands worship....then mabey you have not felt this.



Just thoughts, always
LV

Originally posted by constantine70
Are you being the judge here? who is to make such claims as 'unrepentant gross sin'? We judge others in order to 'test' truths that we may take on ourselves, but when it comes to 'labeling' or 'judgment in whole' we should not do such a thing. You can not measure anything by Gods ruler since we do not posses such a ruler, and no scriptures are not that ruler.
Peace and Harmony through Unconditional LOVE!

lol so you cut off god´s word because its inconvenient to your belief?

your so wrapped up in your story that you couldnt see evil if it was standing right in front of you.

some people are bad. period.

unconditional love is a contradiction. it goes against the very moral fiber god himself put in us.

no matter how much you want to say everyone will be saved, we must be held accountable for our actions. any society based on the opposite notion will fall.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by constantine70
Are you being the judge here? who is to make such claims as 'unrepentant gross sin'? We judge others in order to 'test' truths that we may take on ourselves, but when it comes to 'labeling' or 'judgment in whole' we should not do such a thing. You can not measure anything by Gods ruler since we do not posses such a ruler, and no scriptures are not that ruler.
Peace and Harmony through Unconditional LOVE!

lol so you cut off god´s word because its inconvenient to your belief?

your so wrapped up in your story that you couldnt see evil if it was standing right in front of you.

some people are bad. period.

unconditional love is a contradiction. it goes against the very moral fiber god himself put in us.

no matter how much you want to say everyone will be saved, we must be held accountable for our actions. any society based on the opposite notion will fall.

Hi miriam0566,

I hope that I am getting an honest discussion with you instead of things taught that are parroted. You have made some assertations about my character that are frankly untrue. I am not a universalist, but an anihilist. I think that a common misconception is that in universalism 'evil' is accepted and tolerated, which is probably incorrect. I am an anihilist because the second baptism is 'fire' because it (fire) consumes and leaves only ashes. a being that is evil in totality will cease to exist (no ashes after the fire) when duality is no longer needed. A being that has good in it will become new and from the ashes the being will emurge without sin. We are far from perfect as our Father is perfect, but in order to do so we must know/live the Mysteries of the Father. These Mysteries are all around us and a part of our daily lives. As we are in the image of First Light, we will parallel the characters of First Light, in example would be a family who loves each other unconditionally. This does not mean that they do not fight, for as long as self/ego is involved we will. The family does reconcile their differences and learning is done by all parties involved.
Peace and Harmony through Unconditional LOVE!

reply to post by miriam0566


I too hope this can be a civil discussion without the defender needing to feel like they should laugh lol at someone because their belief differs from their own or feel the need to tell the other they are so blind they wouldn't know evil if it was right in front of them.

I respect the one that can reach understanding of the divine nature without a book....totally relying on a book. I have read that book many times over...it is not perfect. Which that is fine, one can learn many things from the book...but there is more to learn.

Exuse me...I need to go find where I layed my rose colored glasses. If I dont reply to keep this convo going....its only because this is another merry go round that has no ending.

Best intentions,
LV

Originally posted by jdposey
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

Let me ask you a question, since you believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for your salvation, have you sinned? Has there been a day that has gone by, that you haven't sinned? Is there a particular sin in your life that you keep going around the mountain on, falling into it, more times than you care to acknowledge? (You do not have to answer this publicly, this is just a general question.)

What does Paul mean when he said, " Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me ." [Romans 7:17] Do you see how he is separating himself from sin?

What of this "willful sinning?" When you sin, you make the choice to sin, it is a willful choice you make. And, knowing how our human nature is, there is one sin that every believer is "struggling" with and, willfully falling into, several times over.

So, does this mean then "no more sacrifice remains for that believer?

You are describing minor sin, and there is endless sacrifice for that.

There is a big difference between minor sin & major sin. Minor sin is practiced by all, we have no control over it, that's what the Apostle Paul was talking about. Major sin is different from minor sin, and it can be controlled, things like Murder, Fornication, Adultery, theft, things like these.

Jesus ransom covers us off only when we actually feel sorry for what we have done and repent. And God can tell when we are just sorry we got caught too. There comes a time when God views us as having crossed that line where even Jesus sacrifice won't even cover us anymore. Good thing for the 7 billion people on the earth relatively few have crossed it. Because only a certain class of false Christians and former Christians can. Ultimately God is the judge of coarse. But one thing you can't deny is that the category does exist. Thus that means God's love is not unconditional.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


That idea involves a blood shed at the will of God. This is what my soul struggled with for so long until I was able to let go of that belief. Jesus offered the life of flesh out of love for people and faith that this life was not the life to fight for.

Blood sacrifices were abundant in many religions. Its no surprise that the Bible takes this stance as well, for it was the most popular traditions amongst all 'lords' that were worshiped. That in itself was a red flag to me as I began to study deeply the history of the the OT. Why is it, if the book is so divine, the spirit does not speak to the follows clinging to the book? They strictly go by what only the book says. The spirit uses what is not material to teach....it is invisible, it is the spirit within you and depending on the nature of your spirit at that time will depend on what you are going to learn and find. The book is full of things that are not of divine nature. But yet, they are meant to be there...as there is no mistakes. It is a lesson of discernment of two natures. It is a giant parable that teaches discernment.

Just adding thoughts,
LV