Good question about hell

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
And a mother always will love the child, no matter what. Its a perfect sign to show, unconditional love conquers the deepest darkness. The mother may have negative feelings, but the love does not end.

oh you mean unconditional like this?

Times

or this perhaps?

Irish Times

this is love?

Daily Mail

what about this?

MSNBC

yes, a love a mother has for her children truly is an example of unconditional love.

reply to post by miriam0566



These are people with issues due to mentality or personal ego and selfish impulsive actions. I never said this was heaven and I never said that ALL MOTHERS on this earth can show an example of this. But take the general mother who is humble and tries to do good....yes, unconditional love will not falter. People learn through others, there are things like that you posted that are lessons to others why to fight impulsive or selfish behaviors. If it was all peaches and cream...we wouldnt be able to value good things.

We are still creature here....I can show you stories just as you showed me, where sons and daughters showed hate, evil and wrath to their parents...yet those parents still always had love for them, somewhere or some way. They might have to suppress that love, in order to not allow that darkness to sink them also...but in the end, the love still stood.

When people behave in those ways you posted, there are most likely psychological issues that come into play OR the person thrives in selfish decisions, probably due to some environmental influence in their life.

I see your point...but I still have seen and witnessed this unconditional love between a mother and child and the idea that this is what divine nature is deeply resonates with me. Some how, some way, I dont claim to know exactly how this would work, but again, its what lead me to also believe in possible reincarnation.

reply to post by miriam0566


Are you trying to equate god to those? I mean, we all know humans screw up and make bad decisions, but using examples of what humans do as an example of god is rather wrong IMO.

I dont think she was saying that....I began the topic that a mothers love to her child is an example of a divine nature of unconditional. So the discussion of Gods love being the same, is my point of view. Then the idea was taking out of context more or less, with Miriam point of not all mothers are showing this unconditional love and I believe her point to that was to say...God is not unconditional love....so the images were not displaying what God was...but is not.

The unconditional love in those pictures, was the children....and those who felt empathy for them and desired some way to take away their pain. It will be the light in that persons darkness when those mothers leave the flesh and see their life from the perspective of the divine. IMPO of course....then the next issue comes to...are those mothers damned, or corrected and sent off again to live in the flesh and learn.

What say you badmedia?

LV

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
These are people with issues due to mentality or personal ego and selfish impulsive actions. I never said this was heaven and I never said that ALL MOTHERS on this earth can show an example of this.

but what im understanding from you, is that god will eternally love these people no matter how ghastly their actions. whether or not they are even trying to change or not.

I see your point...but I still have seen and witnessed this unconditional love between a mother and child and the idea that this is what divine nature is deeply resonates with me. Some how, some way, I dont claim to know exactly how this would work, but again, its what lead me to also believe in possible reincarnation.

i agree that there are times when someone just refuses to give up on someone. that no matter how low they go, they are still loved.

but that is not perfect love. and it rehabilitates people only some of the time.

some people are monsters. pure and simple. and they are monsters because they want to be monsters. because they are happy being monsters.

a utopia cannot be started with monsters.

reply to post by miriam0566


Unconditional love doesn't mean unconditional praise or getting everything you want. It means giving you what you need at the time. Sometimes what people need is a swift kick in the butt.

The parent who loves their child does punish the child. Not because the parent wants to harm or hurt the child, but because it is in it's best interest.

This discussion reminds me of a scene from Waking Life.

reply to post by miriam0566

i disagree. in fact i suspect (if im reading you correctly) that you are making a jump. we were talking about an insect that is designed with no freewill. now you are saying that if god designed that same insect with free will that this would conflict with his knowing what any outcomes would be, but (i suspect) you have not provided anything reasoning to back up that assumption. We could perhaps somehow imagine, a third party incentive for the insect to act contrary to its design. However this scenario would necessitate the preclusion of the creator being the creator of all that there is, as the third party could not be created by the creator. i agree. if a fly is designed to react only to stimuli provided by god, but then racted to a third party stimuli, it would preclude that the first conclusion (that this creator created all things) is not true

God ? I've not mentioned any gods but the alleged creator of all that there is.

Fly ? where do you keep getting a fly from ? Insect woman insect lol.

Free will ?, i haven't mentioned free will.

The insect (not a fly lol) cannot act in any way other than how it was designed to act by the creator of all that there is, for if it were to do so then this would mean that the creator of all that there is did not create it, no jump here I hope ?

Are we still agreed on that bit ?

reply to post by miriam0566


Utopia will never occur in this world of flesh.

People have their reasons to act selfishly. Usually those reasons are from them allowing the environment to shape them. And yes, God still loves them. Why? Because that is what its about...that is why things are recycles and made anew...Thee needed a way for all light to return. So there is a way...and I hate to see what kind of karmic life those selfish souls would have to live when they return to flesh without the memory of what divine nature was. Their hearts will be harden...and a path will lead them to understand it somehow and teach them how to shine just as bright as any star has ever shown.

Ever heard of the stories about an angel feeling sorry for the angels that did wrong...and they beckoned to God to allow a way for those angels to see their wrong and learn from it. The theme of a story like that runs through many beliefs. Someone stands up and claims a voice in heaven or hell for other souls.

Thanks for the convo today Miriam....and others...I's got's children's getting ready to come home

Peace,
LV

Originally posted by miriam0566
a utopia cannot be started with monsters.

Thus the reason you were removed from the garden to begin with. The utopia already exists, it's just a matter of walking the path back to it properly.

reply to post by badmedia


nice post badmedia!
My wife said the same thing, unconditional love does not omit 'tough love' Eternety is a long time and what people fail to remember that is has already been going on for a long time. (at least the birth of this universe/time construct)

Hell is as described because the concept was directly lifted from Norse Mythology and religion when the Vikings raided and intermingled with the locals. Nifhel and HelHeim; Misty hell and rainy hell. 7 levels within 7 levels.

The goddess Hel. If you died without valor you walked north to meet the goddess who was half living and half dead.

Now you know.

FYI according to the myths and sagas, both Odin and Balder lives in Helheim. Balder was sent to Helheim after Loke had him killed with an arrow made from misteltoe, while Odin died of desease and old age in Svitjod, that is Sweden.

But to compare Niflheim with Helheim is fallacy. Niflheim was the oposite from Muspelheim lying on each side of a canyon where the sagas and myths start off. It has nothing to do with Hel or Helheim.

Saying Hel was half dead is fallacy too. She was half black, which made her incredibly beautiful, but also "half rotten", meaning she was quite moody and often a bit egoistic.

Originally posted by hardcoremusiclover
Thanks for the replies!

If the devil and other evil spirits are in hell then why are they torturing the new evil ones? It's almost as if they would be working for God by torturing them?

This confuses me so much! I understand Catholic view of Purgatory... but If your already damned to spend eternity in hell wouldn't the people in hell be trying to plot evil things on earth and such instead?

Im not an evil person, Im no where near perfect.. Just don't feel like I belong in hell and dont feel im perfect enough for heaven..

Heaven is Self.
Hell is a self-concept.
A self-concept is a belief.
Self is a truth.
Unbelief in Self is belief in a self-concept.
A self-concept is a "sin".
A sin is a seriously insane notion(s) about Self.

Self is one.
The number of the self-concept is *many*.
The many destroys the One.
The many are hell.
The One is Heaven.
Hell is something to "be".
Heaven is what you are.
Hell is halloween, 24/7/365
Hell is a masquerade.
Hell is mischieviousness.
Hell is self-deception.
Hell is a belief.
Belief in lies is the beginning of hell.
Belief in truth is the end of hell.

This is hell.
Jesus preached to those in hell.
Those who believe in "Christ" will be saved...from hell.
Those who disbelieve are "condemned already".
Hell is self-condemnation.
Hell is self-crucifixion.
Hell is ruled by confusion.
Confusion is supported by gnashing of teeth.

Hell is a hallucination within your own mind.
Hallucinations are "seen", but they are not there.
So,
Hell is a kind of insanity.
Insanity is the basis of "sin".
Sin is unbelief in Christ.
Christ is reality.
Unbelief in reality is the beginning of insanity.
As a rule of thumb, if you see people, you've withdrawn into your own little world inside your own mind.

You are Christ.
Deny it, and what is left?
Hell.
You are Heaven or hell.
You decide.
One is the truth.
The other is an illusion.


Christ!






[edit on 19-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by hardcoremusiclover
But if your a terrible evil person, then why would you be tortured in hell? Wouldn't the devil want to embrace you? Reward you for being such an evil person? I dont get it?

The devil hates you. Even if you do his bidding he just thinks of you as a useful idiot. A tool. He hates you. He won't reward you. That's just one of his lies.

The best explaination of the 'fires' of hell I have read is this -

God will not destroy your soul. You are alive forever. And God holds everything together. The person in hell, or in a state of hell, hates God. Hates Him. So even the lightest touch of God's goodness is loathsome and painful for the soul. That lightest touch being God keeping the soul in existence.

The Saints in Heaven bask in God and love him. God's love warms them. They would find Hell freezing cold because the only part of God there is Him keeping the soul in existence. To a heavenly saint - they would freeze from lack of contact with God.

It's the contact with God that the hateful soul in Hell finds to be like fire and painful. Whereas the loving soul in heaven finds it beautiful and warm.

I love when people use passeges from the bible to override common sense, then quote it as proof of their irrational thought.

Is it rational to think that a person who lives a marginally worst life than someone else deserves to spend ETERNITY in hell while the other in heaven?

Guy in hell, "All this for smoking weed?"
Guy in heaven, "Fing sucks to be you dude. *slaps wife* and you, wash my feet."

reply to post by FlyersFan


I Just want to say....I think that is rubbish.

Wouldnt it make more sense that a divine most high make a way for all, somehow someway....

HOW IN THE WORLD can people think they are going to be in heaven, with God, singing and la te da....and not considering the ones who had a rough life and couldnt hop on the whole GOD IS MY SAVIOR wagon. WOW, it is a shallow way to think about how a divine almighty all powerful one would work. I would rather believe that since he is divine, all powerful, just IS because he IS....that Thee would find a way, place that soul in another life that will awaken them to love and allow them to feel the desire to seek a humble nature.

Just cant see God allowing something so horrid and heartless to occur and yet alone...happen for a eternity.

There are souls who stands up for lost souls....I think this is always the case....so there is found a way....to make sure NO LIGHT IS LOST.

Ill stick with the God that can make all things possible, even turn the horrid soul back into a good vine and seed.

Im sorry, Im just so tired of people talking about the fear tactic. Come on, give God a little bit more of a credit that anything is within his power.

HOw can someone be in heaven and TURN A BLIND EYE TO LOST SOULS. THEY CANT....so they too, come back, into the cycle, to aid and be a light unto the darkness.

Sorry, I just got up and the whole devil talk got under my skin...

LV

reply to post by LeoVirgo


You disagree? That's fine. I'm just repeating the theology I have read.

People have free will. They are free to hate God. If the love of God touches someone who is deep in hate, THAT is what is the 'pain of fire' that is spoken about. Those in Hell want to be there. They picked it. They hated God. They don't want Him to touch them. But He does, because He holds all things together. That slight touch is what causes the pain. Those in Hell hate it.

Those in Heaven would freeze if they had to venture into Hell because God is there only minimally. Those in Heaven love God and want him and therefore his touch soothes and warms. It doesn't burn.

It has nothing to do with smoking dope.

Anyways .. that's the theological explaination I've read.
Sounds as good as anything else.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Ok...so for a moment, give me a couple examples of what kind of life these peoples live....give me just a opinion of how a person ends up in hell because they hate God.

Its not possible to hate God, but Ill give it the benefit of the doubt.

Most likely, something in their life effected them deeply and their actions of hate towards others was their way of coping. OR mentality could of played a part.

Do you not think that God cant make a way to reach those bitter hearts?? A eternity in hell....while what...others sit in eternity of worship?

God never looses hope, never stops reaching, and has made a way for all who have become lost. There is no 'time line' that God one day will decide....well guys, time is up, sorry if you didnt find my love for you by now....too bad so sad for you.

Really...what is so divine and almighty about that.

Dont take me wrong...we can agree to disgree....I can participate in a civil conversation...just got to get this coffee in me

Free Will can be a cover of something we really dont have.

Say that when we die, we leave the flesh body are are brought into the divine essence of God. Say that all the things we did now become flashed before us and we are able to see what we did selfishly and selflessness. Say God doesnt need to tell us what was wrong or could of been done better, because in the divine essence, its prevalent what falls we made. So we re learn...and come back, be born again, with karmic debts to pay. In between the death and life....we also see how former lives before the last aided in how our heart became bitter or how the environment (darkness) formed us more so then we allowed the humble spirit to mold us.

If we get booted back in because our vibration wasnt raised, then where does free will come in? The will of THEE takes over, because Thee wont give up on you. You might keep bucking like a horse, but eventually, you will find that there is no other way....you are a part of God forever...and one day, in some life, you will see and hear and be humbled.

Just thoughts
LV

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
You are describing minor sin, and there is endless sacrifice for that.

Nowhere in the scriptures does it convey that Jesus' sacrifice only covers the minor sins. Your understanding of Hebrews 10:26 is out of line, as for, sinning and crossing a line of no more forgiveness.

You have to ask yourself, who is the letter of Hebrews addressed to? Who is the audience? They are the Jewish Believers . Those who were accustomed to the Temple and every aspect of it as it pertained to the necessity for atonement through the animal sacrifice and shedding of animal blood for the atonement of their sin.

To these, the author of Hebrews is unfolding the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ and His blood for the atonement of their sins, to such an extent, that he reveals the warning and danger of holding onto the old sacrificial system and ignoring the only atonement now allowed for their sins, the shedding of Christ's blood. Here the warning surfaces: if they continued on sinning willfully: by ignoring Christ's shedding of blood for the atonement of their sins and held onto the atonement which they were accustomed to through the shedding of animal blood, as carried out in temple sacrifices, no longer would there remain a sacrifice for them . After all, how could there, since they were rejecting the sacrifice of Christ and thereby counting his blood as not being worthy enough to cover their sins?

So you see, there is no minor sin in comparison to major sin. Sin is sin, and to be quite honest with you, anything that is not of faith, is sin.

[edit on 2/19/2009 by jdposey]