is SETI just a smokescreen?

Originally posted by SaviorComplex

Originally posted by grantbeed
i agree. if we are seeing UFO's then im sure they are slightly past CB radios!!!

While it is true that civilizations more advanced than our own will have moved past using radio-signals for communications, the search for extraterrestrial communications is limited by our current level of technology. Once we develop new methods of communication, we can start searching for extraterrestrials based on that. Until then, we are fettered to what we have and know.

Very true SC and can I add that they are not searching for radio sources as we know them. They are searching for energy and interference signatures that are not naturally produced.

Originally posted by shadow Clown
knowledge of the transmission sent and more then likely high mathematical knowledge

The Arecibo Message has been public knowledge since the day it was sent and the methodology behind the message is readily available. Those creating the the "reply" glyph would only need an understanding of mathematics, binary code, and fields such as chemistry; nothing outside of the field of human understanding was created in this glyph.

Originally posted by shadow Clown
Go do all that work and tell people they didnt do it yet its a definte hoax?!?!

There is a very good reason for not telling anyone you pulled off this hoax: it is illegal. It is vandalizism of a farmer's crops and charges could be brought.

Originally posted by shadow Clown
Or it would've taken a team of 10 or something working like all night(without any lightsource as tyhis would attract attention) and continually for what like 2 weeeks not to mention renting a helicopter to see if its aligning right, i mean it wiould be impossible to make that from guess work

A helicopter would be unnecessary, using simple math and measurements along with attention to detail, a group could pull this off (after all, one does not need a helicopter to see that you have painted a football field right, or that a street is being built the right size and direction.) The only light they would need would be to read their measurements; a simple pin-light would do.

Originally posted by shadow Clown
As to why would aliens communicate in crop circles, probably to show the whole public while remainning discreet from higher powers.

If you are a UFO believer, then this explanation holds no internal logic. At a bare minimum, if the stories of UFOs are true then these beings can fly in and out of our airspace without discrimination. "Higher powers" are powerless to stop them. If they created this agro-glyph, then they also did it without discrimination. Considering this, they could communicate in more direct manners without the discretion of "higher powers." And creating an argo-glyph in a little known field in a little known part of the UK is not the way to show "the whole public" anything. The whole public doesn't know about the Chilbolton Reply, only afficiandos do.

[edit on 12-2-2009 by SaviorComplex]

[edit on 12-2-2009 by SaviorComplex]

Originally posted by majestictwo
Very true SC and can I add that they are not searching for radio sources as we know them. They are searching for energy and interference signatures that are not naturally produced.

Exactly, Mr. Majestic. SETI is not exactly looking for the extraterrestrial version of Casey Kasem's Top 40 Countdown.

And what we are looking for is constantly evolving. Centaur Dreams is an excellent website to keep up-to-date on the latest advances in SETI, along with deep space exploration and exobiology.

This alien stuff is already up our ass and gaining momentum. They are not out their but here in large numbers and they are not what you think. And a third were cast out following the father of deception and lies. If you shoot me shoot me through the heart for it is a bed of deception.

Originally posted by gaslaugh123
This alien stuff is already up our ass and gaining momentum. They are not out their but here in large numbers and they are not what you think. And a third were cast out following the father of deception and lies. If you shoot me shoot me through the heart for it is a bed of deception.

Now that we've gotten a dose of of the old fire-and-brimstone, I don't have to go to church this Sunday! Awesome, thanks Mr. Laugh!

(Not that I was going to go to church in the first place, but still!)

reply to post by SaviorComplex

The same could be said of UFO researchers; it's been 60 years since Kenneth Arnold's sightings and believers are no closer to the supposed truth than they were then. They have produced nothing that has convinced the world once-and-for-all.

Whats the ratio of believers to non-believers? If 95% of the worlds population is either skeptical of ufo existence or simply non-believing then what major media outlet will risk exposing all the covered-up evidence? Mainstream media does not fear the government but it does fear going out of bussiness if its popularity #s are not high enough....

This is the reason believers have not been able to convince everyone. A lack of evidence IS CERTAINLY NOT the case and if anyone who bothers to do their own alternative research they will be awestruck/amazed!

To answer your other question, SETI projects are privately funded.

Yes but in the past it was financed by the *never a straight answer* agency. You probably already know that but others may not. Now they are being financed primarily by the military-industrial complex and any other *interested in covering-up the overwhelming evidence* parties.

The peculiar attitude of UFO believers towards SETI plumbs the depths of both stupidity and hypocrisy. Those behind SETI and METI are doing work that, by all measures, the believers should support. In fact, if SETI/METI's work proves successful, it will only lend weight to the believers arguments.

I do not support con-artists who waste money and computer resources to continue fooling people into complacency!

However, because those behind SETI/METI are not focusing exclusively on flying saucers, the believers idiotically attack it. These hypocrites bash it for not producing the results the believers themselves have failed to produce themselves in 60 years.

As far as I know, they have NOT studied ANYTHING ufo related. They just pretend to listen for "intellligent signals" that will never arrive. 60 years of listening and not even one reply....give me a break!!!

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Whats the ratio of believers to non-believers? If 95% of the worlds population is either skeptical of ufo existence or simply non-believing

Please back this up.

Polls show that you are wrong. A 1997 CNN/Time Poll shows 80% of Americans think there is a UFO cover-up. A 2002 Roper Poll commission by the Sci-Fi Channel found similar number, with 72% saying there is a UFO cover-up.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
then what major media outlet will risk exposing all the covered-up evidence? Mainstream media does not fear the government but it does fear going out of business if its [ratings] are not high enough...

As you can see from the above polls, there is an interest and belief in the subject. Taking this into consideration, we can see that the media outlets would not be risking anything in regards to ratings if they ran stories about a UFO cover-up. Your supposition is wrong and not supported by the evidence.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
This is the reason believers have not been able to convince everyone. A lack of evidence IS CERTAINLY NOT the case

As demonstrated above, this supposition is wrong. So there must be another reason the world has not been convinced; could it be a lack of substantive, definitive proof?

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
and if anyone who bothers to do their own alternative research they will be awestruck/amazed!

I've been studying this subject for almost two decades, and yet I am, a skeptic.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Yes but in the past it was financed by the *never a straight answer* agency.

Please document this.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
They just pretend to listen for "intellligent signals" that will never arrive. 60 years of listening and not even one reply....give me a break!

First, how do you know this will never find a signal?

Second, once again, you prove my point. You are attacking SETI for not accomplishing what UFO researchers themselves have not been able to accomplish...otherwise we would not be having this discussion.

Originally posted by SaviorComplex
I've been studying this subject for almost two decades, and yet I am, a skeptic.

I am also a skeptic but not in the same regard as you. I know ufos exist due to the volume of sightings, reports, whistleblower testimony, etc...

My quest is in the details! What percentage are et; what percentage are military; what percentage are ultra-terrestial; what planet and/or solar system do the et come from; is the government in cahoots with some or all of them; do reptillians and/or greys live within the earth and boss us around; what are ghosts; is the earth, moon and mars semi-hollow; what about the monuments on mars(face, pyramids, mounds); the glass structures on the moon;etc..........

You my friend on the other hand seem to not care about anything other than debunking the believers and skeptics. You never post anything constructive nor do you show any consideration for the little evidence we do have.

Originally posted by SaviorComplex
Second, once again, you prove my point. You are attacking SETI for not accomplishing what UFO researchers themselves have not been able to accomplish...otherwise we would not be having this discussion.

Actually, ufo researchers have done an awful lot more than what seti has or will ever do! And I am not attacking anyone or anything, it just happens that the truth hurts sometimes and I can see that you don't like it.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Actually, ufo researchers have done an awful lot more than what seti has or will ever do! And I am not attacking anyone or anything, it just happens that the truth hurts sometimes and I can see that you don't like it.

And what have they accomplished?

As far as I know, whether we are alone in the universe or not is still a question that is open for debate.

i mean they have been listening in for a long time with no concrete results

I know I've said it before, but I don't think people are really considering all of the factors as to how and why SETI is statistically almost doomed to fail detection of an alien signal.

And it's not the factor of if or even how many aliens are out there...it's a simple matter of distance and time...(and technological window)

Now, that doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile effort, and I think the people involved (and these days, that includes many home PC users by the way) genuinely want to find a contact....but, they're up against monumental odds.

Lets say a receiver here on Earth (we'll call him MAN A) is trying to detect a signal from an alien (we'll call him ALIEN B)....

ALIEN B is say 100 light years away...(that's practically next door, as far as a cosmic scale is concerned)....It's been say 300 years since their last radio or tv signal (they've since gone digital or to some communications means beyond our current tech to detect).

MAN A is listening for the signals from ALIEN B.

ALIEN B's last transmissions (using a technology we could detect) hit Earth 200 years ago (travels at light speed in a vacuum, etc., etc,).

Unfortunately for MAN A, even though ALIEN B is cosmically right next door, those alien tv show transmissions left us around 1800. If MAN A had a tv back then, great! But now....he's out of luck.

Space could be FILLED with such signals, but the distances mean those signals could have either come and gone (within a given technological window), or could even still be on their way if they are further away...or just now developing the tech.

So it's all of these factors, that allow us to pick up a signal that we'd actually recognize as something made by an intelligent being. The odds are like finding a particular grain of sand, on a particular beach...but I certainly wish them luck...

Why haven't they found anything?
Why haven't you won the lottery?
The answer is the same....it's a matter of odds....

reply to post by Gazrok


You are right it is exactly what would happen and that’s why they don’t do it that way. They are not searching for radio sources as we know them. They are searching for energy signatures that are not naturally produced. It doesn’t solve the time issue you rightly point out but it does eliminate the detection issue.
Okay in your example if a signal arrived that we did not have the technology to decode it would be lost perhaps not even recognized. However the energy from the source does still arrive and that is what we can in fact sense. If it is detected the next step is to analyze simply put if its chaos it’s rejected if there is any kind of pattern its further analyzed.

I tend to think that SETI is not so much a smokescreen as it is a waste of time and effort. There are many, many assumptions being made when they make their decisions about how to look for aliens that are probably just flat out wrong that I doubt they will ever find what they're looking for.

That being said, it's not hurting anything, and I could be wrong. I guess you gotta start somewhere, even if it's just to find out for sure what doesn't work.

P.S. -- Just another thought. As hard as it might be to find somebody like us out there who is actively trying to be found, imagine how hard it can be if they're actively trying to hide. Which might be a really good idea. If life in the galaxy is anything like it is here on Earth, where you're either predator or prey, then the stupidest thing you could do is announce as loud as possible to the galaxy and any predators out there that we're here. We might already be too late in that regard. Oops.

[edit on 13-2-2009 by Nohup]

good point nohup. maybe we are all on the menu in the future!! lol

if ET's were using so called "wormholes" could signals still be sent and detected tho that are worthwhile??

would it not be more useful to try other means, possibly using the mind?

i mean we have more or less proven that to travel these immense distances would be out of the question unless some sort of wormhole is used.

Jeff Ritzmann and I recently had Dr. Matloff on our Paratopia show. Matloff is an astrophysicist who has worked for NASA and is buds with Seth Shostak from SETI. Essentially what he taught us is that the people at SETI really do believe in what they're doing. They're not a smokescreen, BUT... the reason they play the part of debunker on shows like "Larry King Live" is because they know that they are already suspect in the corridors of power and their budget is always on the chopping block. Therefore they have to make themselves look more legit for monetary purposes by dissociating themselves from ufology. ("See? We're not fringe nutballs! We're scientists! Now fund this telescope!")

[edit on 13-2-2009 by Jeremy_Vaeni]

Originally posted by Nohup
I tend to think that SETI is not so much a smokescreen as it is a waste of time and effort. There are many, many assumptions being made when they make their decisions about how to look for aliens that are probably just flat out wrong that I doubt they will ever find what they're looking for.

That being said, it's not hurting anything, and I could be wrong. I guess you gotta start somewhere, even if it's just to find out for sure what doesn't work.

P.S. -- Just another thought. As hard as it might be to find somebody like us out there who is actively trying to be found, imagine how hard it can be if they're actively trying to hide. Which might be a really good idea. If life in the galaxy is anything like it is here on Earth, where you're either predator or prey, then the stupidest thing you could do is announce as loud as possible to the galaxy and any predators out there that we're here. We might already be too late in that regard. Oops.

[edit on 13-2-2009 by Nohup]

Hi Nohup, Radio or tv signals that escape and travel into space probably wouldn’t make any sense to another civilisation. We announce ourselves every day in a far more fundamental way and that’s by all the light we emit we cannot hide from that. It’s a simple detection method that we have started employing hear on earth. If we notice a planet dark side emitting light then its worth investigating further.

Gazrok’s time issue cannot be overcome even with this method. But I feel that if we detected something even as far as their civilisation my have faded its still a justification to continue and the knowledge we are not alone would be quite satisfying.

MJ2

Originally posted by Jeremy_Vaeni
Jeff Ritzmann and I recently had Dr. Matloff on our Paratopia show. Matloff is an astrophysicist who has worked for NASA and is buds with Seth Shostak from SETI. Essentially what he taught us is that the people at SETI really do believe in what they're doing. They're not a smokescreen, BUT... the reason they play the part of debunker on shows like "Larry King Live" is because they know that they are already suspect in the corridors of power and their budget is always on the chopping block. Therefore they have to make themselves look more legit for monetary purposes by dissociating themselves from ufology. ("See? We're not fringe nutballs! We're scientists! Now fund this telescope!")

[edit on 13-2-2009 by Jeremy_Vaeni]

Yeah but this is precisely the kind of lousy attitude that stiffles progress.

If we are going to start off a real investigation for the detection of extra-terrestial life then it only makes sense to incorporate ufology and alternative science into the equation.

Otherwise it becomes painfully obvious to any person with half a brain that seti and/or nasa is nothing more than a smokescreen for the ptb! Why listen for far away radio signals when all the action is right on your doorstep??

And by the way, why the hell does nasa have to answer to the department of defense? Was it not the idea that it should serve the public and for scientific research? I guess many people, including me, were naive to assume that they had our best interest in mind....

[edit on 16-2-2009 by EarthCitizen07]

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Otherwise it becomes painfully obvious to any person with half a brain that seti and/or nasa is nothing more than a smokescreen for the ptb! Why listen for far away radio signals when all the action is right on your doorstep??

As I said, this attitude is both idiotic and hypocritical. Despite the fact they are doing work that if success would lend weight to their own beliefs, short-sighted UFO believers attack it for not concentrating on UFO reports.

They are searching for energy signatures that are not naturally produced.

I used radio waves only as as example. The point remains that we still have the possibility of other signals hitting us every day, that may be beyond our detection due to technology issues.

For example, there were times we couldn't detect radio waves, there were times we couldn't detect gamma rays, etc. To assume we can now detect and recognize every kind of energy is extremely arrogant, and there may be far more going on in reality than our instruments and senses can currently tell us. Doesn't have to be anything "metaphysical", just beyond our current tech....

reply to post by SaviorComplex


Why do you keep repeating the same non-sense

I wasn't even talking to you!

Despite the fact they are doing work that if success would lend weight to their own beliefs, short-sighted UFO believers attack it for not concentrating on UFO reports.

More than just weight, SETI offers the possibility (however unlikely due to the time/distance/technology issues) of providing actual PROOF instead of just evidence, of extraterrestrial life. That alone makes it extremely valuable to UFOlogy, and it irks me to no degree to hear UFOlogists belittle their efforts. They are trying to solve the same mystery, albeit with a different angle. I say, good for them, and wish them the best of luck...

On the flip side, many SETI personnel believe the other UFOlogists to be "nutcases", so the bias exists on both sides. However, both methods contribute to solving the same issue.