Jews and forced Natural selection

reply to post by Res Ipsa

"FORCED" natural selection....OK LETS STRIKE NATURAL all together.... "forced selection" is the issue. JEWS.....whether a "race" a "religion" a "nationality" are a "distinct" group of people. They have been chased out of almost everywhere or killed.
of course they haven't!!! That is my point. Should I dare use the term "endangered species"? over hunted?

You, sir, don't follow your own directions. You chide people for not reading your directions carefully, which by the way I did, and then:
1.) You change the directions or your hypothesis, when valid objections are raised, since it was YOU that brought up natural selection:

Approach this scientifically....what do we understand about natural selection? Now apply it to the Jews through history and replacing "nature" with "man" survival of the fittest. Those traits that are essential to survival get passed down through generations. "gifts" "intelligence

2.) You obviously don't bother to READ peoples response. That is apparent, when you said this:

To the one poster that said something like "Jews haven't grown in numbers" or something like that to refute my theory..

Why don't you take the time to actually READ what I posted? Actually, I believe that you know the answer, namely, that I used the scientific method to DISPROVE your theory, so now you can obfuscate and dodge responding to the proof.

You don't want an open debate, You merely want to spout your disproven theory, and expect people to accept it as fact, which it is not. That is your prerogative, but don't expect people to waste time responding when you don't take the time to respond back in kind, addressing the respondents points. Have a nice day. I will not waste my time any more with someone that is not interested in a two-way discussion.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

) to Res Ipsa: Why don't you take the time to actually READ what I posted?

I did. As Res Ipsa says, you presented the obvious decline in the Jewish population in recent times as evidence that Jews aren't evolving.

Your argument is based on a false assumption: that evolution is the same thing as evolutionary success. It isn't: evolution is the process by means of which species acquire new traits and attributes and are eventually transformed into other species. It is marked by genetic variation; in a sense, it is genetic variation, so deviations from the genetic norm in a population sub-group are actually a pretty good measure of how far that sub-group has evolved from the rest of the population.

Population size is a fair indicator of evolutionary success but it has nothing to do with measuring or tracking evolution itself.

Actually, I believe that you know the answer, namely, that I used the scientific method to DISPROVE your theory, so now you can obfuscate and dodge responding to the proof.

That's a bit unfair. First, you didn't use the scientific method at all; you used ordinary logic, and though you used it well enough, your premise was false and so your argument fails. Res Ipsa wasn't obfuscating and dodging; he was making a valid point.

[edit on 10-2-2009 by Astyanax]

Prof,
you did make a valid point in that I should not have used the term
"natural" to begin with. I have been reading alot of different posts to "develop" "refine" "narrow" the theory. I know you, and almost everyone here, are accustomed to reading OP's that are used as some bully pulpit.
The poster right above me responds to my issue with your post better than I could myself, so I can't add anything regarding that.

but being a real hater of ignorance, I reserve the right to change, modify, and if need be, throw the whole theory out the window when reason compels.

...now before I add anything new I need to read some posts and links.

In describing what they see as the result of the Ashkenazic mutations, the researchers cite the fact that Ashkenazi Jews make up 3 percent of the American population but won 27 percent of its Nobel prizes, and account for more than half of world chess champions. They say that the reason for this unusual record may be that differences in Ashkenazic and northern European I.Q. are not large at the average, where most people fall, but become more noticeable at the extremes; for people with an I.Q. over 140, the proportion is 4 per 1,000 among northern Europeans but 23 per 1,000 with Ashkenazim.

(ok...this explains a bit of DNA stuff as a result of being isolated) but this is just one group however and wouldn't explain away other Jewish groups like Saphradic (sic) jews like Benjamin Cardozo. must read more))))

Ok...looks like the Ashkenazi Jews can be explained as far as the link between their intelligence and persecution. (read Craeker's post) (didn't spell it right but he posted on page 2 and had 3 links.

I now wonder if any other group has been looked at? Is there a specific group of Jews that have a disproportionate representation in the music and movie business? The legal field? The Ashkenazi's are only one group but if other groups of Jews have a niche or even share to some degree with the IQ measure with the Ashkenazi's, then we are on to something.

I haven't read through all the posts but I will offer a thought or two.

I have often wondered about the business of only being Jew if your mother was Jewish. So what is it? Is it something in the matrilineal DNA? This was started in the old testament with son's having to go back to the mother's family for a wife and continues today. And as we know, matrilineal DNA passes to both children but can only be passed on through the female. Could it be something in this heritage that gives them a)intelligence and/or b)stamina. Just a thought.

Also, someone posted about men needing their wives and apparently being submissive to them. I don't know the answer but could circumcision on the 8th day, after the infant has bonded with the mother, then is taken away and circumcised with no comfort from the mother have an effect on this? This is a crucial psychological period in an infants life. Sorry. I know this is off topic but could be relevant to the poster.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

How math furthered evolution
The rise of settlements also promoted the breakdown of labor into specialized jobs. That, coupled with food surpluses from farming, led to systems of trade and the need to track the flow of resources, which in turn could have selected for individuals with specific cognitive strengths.

"Mathematical ability is very important when it comes to keeping track of crops and bartering," Wang says. "Certainly your working memory has to be better. You have to remember who owes you what."

The researchers point to China's Mandarin system, a method of screening individuals for positions as tax collectors and other government administrators. For nearly 2,000 years, starting in A.D. 141, the sons of a broad cross section of Chinese society, including peasants and tradesmen, took the equivalent of standardized tests. "Those who did well on them would get a good job in the civil service and oftentimes had multiple wives, while the other sons remained in a rice field," Moyzis says. "Probably for thousands of years in some cultures, certain kinds of intellectual ability may have been tied to reproductive success."

Harpending and Cochran had previously-and controversially-marshaled similar evidence to explain why Ashkenazi Jews (those of northern European descent) are overrepresented among world chess masters, Nobel laureates, and those who score above 140 on IQ tests.

In a 2005 article in the Journal of Biosocial Science, the scientists attributed the Ashkenazis' intellectual distinction to a religious and cultural environment that blocked them from working as farm laborers in central and northern Europe for almost a millennium, starting around A.D. 800. As a result, these Jews took jobs as moneylenders and financial administrators of estates. To make a profit, Harpending says, "they had to be good at evaluating properties and market risks, all the while dodging persecution." Those who prospered in these mentally demanding and hostile environments, the researchers posit, would have left behind the most offspring.

Critics note that the association between wealth and intelligence in this interpretation is circumstantial, however.

Happy 200th birthday to Darwin.

I don't think a single theory can explain it. Culture, Religion, Persecution, all probably contribute to the penumbra of "forced selection"

Someone, who has time and the inclination, may break down those three catagories and show how they inter relate to support my "gee I wonder" theory I postulated in the opening post. Then again someone might prove it silly and then I will have to respond, "I said good day to you!"

reply to post by Res Ipsa

I don't think a single theory can explain it. Culture, Religion, Persecution, all probably contribute to the penumbra of "forced selection".

Understanding comes easier if you start with the fact of genetic selection (which has undoubtedly taken place; the inherited diseases are proof of that) and work outwards.

Why has selection taken place? Obviously the selection was not for inherited diseases but for other characteristics that promoted survival and reproduction under threatening circumstances. And it took place unconsciously, in the usual way - those with traits that favoured survival and reproduction survived and reproduced, passing on the traits without even thinking about it.

Sure, culture and religion helped: other people's culture and religion, mostly. People like Russi's forebears hated Jews and restricted their lives at every turn. It was, in a sense, a form of domestication, in which Jews were forced to adapt to the tiny, twisted circumstances their Eastern European overlords forced them into. You could say the Ashkenazim were bred for intelligence - but accidentally, and more by their soi-disant masters than by themselves.

Astyanax: Are you sane? or just ignorant in what you are talking about?

\People like Russi's forebears hated Jews and restricted their lives at every turn.\

The Ashkenazi here have been occupying the best positions in the society... Restricted? how restricted? from working as farmers and workers? i can also say that your forbears hated the Jews... and will be right...
and my forbears as you say didnt even know the word Ashkenazi at the time you mean, they knew Khazars and their Kaganat that made the Slavs pay them contribution...and restricted them in every turn on their land or just exterminated... the time of Khazar kaganat was worse than the Mongol yoke

\It was, in a sense, a form of domestication, in which Jews were forced to adapt to the tiny, twisted circumstances their Eastern European overlords forced them into. \

which overlords? which jews you mean again? which "tiny", "twisted" circumstances? what time period you mean?
why making such ignorant comments?

And please, when mentioning genetics, dont forget, that the Ashkenazi is not a group! But a CATEGORY!!! Mr. Cohran knows it well enough, but prefers to stun the brains of the english-speaking public with falsy researches! Good sales evidently following his researches of homosexuals... the next logical step was another one - the ashkenazi...


[edit on 13-2-2009 by Russi]

reply to post by Res Ipsa

I don't think a single theory can explain it. Culture, Religion, Persecution, all probably contribute to the penumbra of "forced selection"

I kinda put my 2 cents on this on the lower page 2. But it warrants further attention. I actually like this whole thread and concept, but let me take it a step further.

Are the Jews the only group that have specific traits that SEEM exclusive to them? What about other groups? Obviously, the black race is noted for abilities in sports, dance and agility, but also have a predisposition to a disease (cannot remember which) that is exclusive to them. I will have to give this some more thought.

Supposing this argument could be proof of a divine creator who instilled predetermined traits in groups that would then manifest through forced selection? Creating variety that would distinguish themselves from other races/nationalities? Creating diversity?

Regardless of where everyone stands on the Bible, there is the account of the Tower of Babel where it is said that God made everyone associated with it take a permanent hiatus in other parts of the world, thus creating eventually, new nations, races, etc. If there is any element of truth to this, this would indeed have created the beginning of "forced selection" you are speaking of. Mankind would then add their twist on it.

See, I have no problem with a Creator who uses science to create evolution/natural selection, and creation, wherever he sees fit.

[edit on 13-2-2009 by MatrixProphet]

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Res Ipsa

 

I don't think a single theory can explain it. Culture, Religion, Persecution, all probably contribute to the penumbra of "forced selection"

Are the Jews the only group that have specific traits that SEEM exclusive to them?

Supposing this argument could be proof of a divine creator who instilled predetermined traits in groups that would then manifest through forced selection? Creating variety that would distinguish themselves from other races/nationalities? Creating diversity?

Actually, I think...making this up as I type actually...that a divine creator would create a "genetic safeguard" that would "force" humans to work together as an inclusive community..."forced intergration" maybe is a better term.....I think if a group of people say, "screw it, we want to be left alone, no outsiders allowed." you would get inbreeding over time of course until some disease or something like Downs syndrome grabs ahold of the DNA and wipes them all out. Because: If we as humans lived like that in the world we couldn't communicate with other "communities" to trade for things each might need to survive, fighting over resources would ensue because we couldn't communicate something as easy as..."hey, I'll give you this for that" instead it would be tribal warfare all the time.
...so the genetic gene pool keeps us from trying to live in isolation...I guess that is a better way of saying it.

Regardless of where everyone stands on the Bible, there is the account of the Tower of Babel where it is said that God made everyone associated with it take a permanent hiatus in other parts of the world, thus creating eventually, new nations, races, etc. If there is any element of truth to this, this would indeed have created the beginning of "forced selection" you are speaking of. Mankind would then add their twist on it.

again, I think the story of Babel sounds like what I'm trying to proffer but does it much better. We need a global community to exist because everyone has a piece of the DNA puzzle to sustain our species.

Now when it comes to African Americans....and I mean...African Americans
they were bred like cattle for a specific purpose and its nice to see that Karma has given them its own form of reparations by having them dominate professional sports with amazing $$$$ for "playing". It seems any group that gets hosed over gets some aid from Karma. Native Americans have Casino's. (please don't point out that everyone in these groups doesn't get the Karma loving) The native American example, now that I think about it, is retarded as far as it comes to the whole "forced selection" argument because the Casino thing has nothing to do with genetics.
....but...I'm glad I'm the one who brought them up because someone could have argued that they were persecuted like the Jews big time.
a) Jews were for much longer and were/are more resistent to genetic intergration. (you can still piss off a Jewish mother for thinking about marrying a Goium)
b) African Americans were plucked out of Africa for a specific purpose and those that couldn't survive the trip across the ocean were literally victims of "survival of the fittest"
c) Native Americans were....well...they just were screwed over.

...the hell was my point??? oh... No, I don't believe that God gave one group great athletic dormant genes, and a group with great intelligent dormant genes...and so on. I do believe that we were all created equal in concept, but location, culture, religion, external forces, and mother nature (dudes in Pompay) (dudes in Atlantis)...these things all contribute to desernable and objectively verifiable differences in ethnic and racial groups today.

Saying we are all created equal...today...is more of a value statement, meaning that we all should be "treated equal" than it is a statement of scientific certainty.......

reply to post by Res Ipsa

..the hell was my point??? oh... No, I don't believe that God gave one group great athletic dormant genes, and a group with great intelligent dormant genes...and so on. I do believe that we were all created equal in concept, but location, culture, religion, external forces, and mother nature (dudes in Pompay) (dudes in Atlantis)...these things all contribute to desernable and objectively verifiable differences in ethnic and racial groups today.

Saying we are all created equal...today...is more of a value statement, meaning that we all should be "treated equal" than it is a statement of scientific certainty.......

If I am understanding you correctly, I think that we feel the same or at least very similar. As I said in my post on page 2, conditioning is the basic answer, although did a Creator want automatons? Or DID he create or set in motion certain traits according to races and eventual nationalities?

I don't know, but it would create equality in being different. Not all exactly the same, but each having their own dominant and recessive traits. Everyone giving according to their talents and strengths. Man, though, with the limited free will we have, has forced segments of society to live according to their plan: right, wrong, or indifferent, as that may be.

I want to make note of the usage of "Black" individual (in my former post) as not all are African Americans, but am talking of those from all countries.

reply to post by Res Ipsa

It seems any group that gets hosed over gets some aid from Karma. Native Americans have Casino's. (please don't point out that everyone in these groups doesn't get the Karma loving) The native American example, now that I think about it, is retarded as far as it comes to the whole "forced selection" argument because the Casino thing has nothing to do with genetics.
....but...I'm glad I'm the one who brought them up because someone could have argued that they were persecuted like the Jews big time.
a) Jews were for much longer and were/are more resistent to genetic intergration. (you can still piss off a Jewish mother for thinking about marrying a Goium)
b) African Americans were plucked out of Africa for a specific purpose and those that couldn't survive the trip across the ocean were literally victims of "survival of the fittest"
c) Native Americans were....well...they just were screwed over.

I neglected to comment on these points as they are worthy.

Anyone who argues that free will doesn't exist, your statements above prove that it does, however rudimentary in its form.

There is no doubt with anyone who has ever read the Bible, that the Jews/Hebrews/Israelite's, were Gods chosen people, and hence, part of the reason for their persecution... I won't go into a religious discussion as to whether this is still the case or not. It's not for me to say, and I don't believe in religion, anyhow. But it cannot be denied that they have been a closed knit group from the beginning and the orthodox, wish to maintain this.

It is nice to see that karma or Gods blessing would eventually come back to serve the downtrodden of history. In many peoples views; better late than never!!

Native Americans have to some extent inherited a genetic predisposition to addictions, ie., alcohol especially. Working in the field of human behavior and addiction, and in a well populated state of Native Americans, I see it a lot. So casinos are a huge money maker for them, but unfortunately possibly addiction in motion as a primary consequence of their subjugation? Some have been able to step outside this generalization and have great pride for their heritage, while others enforce it.

[edit on 13-2-2009 by MatrixProphet]

Originally posted by Russi
The Ashkenazi here have been occupying the best positions in the society...

I believe the Nazis said something similar about the German Jews just before they began exterminating them. It simply isn't true. The history of Jews in Eastern Europe and Russia is hardly a secret. It's a little late for revisionism.

Restricted? how restricted? from working as farmers and workers?

From owning land, of course. The most fundamental restriction of all in an agrarian society where social acceptance and stature are based on real property.

And that's only to be going on with.

i can also say that your forbears hated the Jews...

and will be right...

Probably. My ancestry is mostly South Asian but also Western European, so it's quite likely.

But it doesn't matter - my forebears, like yours, probably hated somebody - some ethnic or religious group. People, whatever their race, are good haters. But you know what? I don't hate anyone. Can you say the same for yourself?

my forbears as you say didnt even know the word Ashkenazi at the time you mean, they knew Khazars and their Kaganat that made the Slavs pay them contribution...

The theory that the majority of Ashkenazic Jews are the descendants of the non-Semitic converted Khazars was advocated by various racial theorists and antisemitic sources...

Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have largely disproven the Khazar origin theory for the vast majority of Jews, including the Ashkenazi.

Bernard Lewis (the preeminent English-speaking historian of the Middle East): 'This theory… is supported by no evidence whatsoever. It has long since been abandoned by all serious scholars in the field, including those in Arab countries, where the Khazar theory is little used except in occasional political polemics.'

Source

No wonder you hate Wikipedia. But even a site like Khazaria.com concurs that there is no genetic evidence of a link between the Ashkenazim and your Khazars.

All existing studies fail to compare modern Jewish populations' DNA to ancient Judean DNA and medieval Khazarian DNA.

Jewish Genetics: Abstracts & Summaries at Khazaria.com

The Ashkenazi is not a group! But a CATEGORY!!!

And what about 'anti-Semite'? Is that a group or a category?

The Jews rock!

Ignore the Haters!

\I believe the Nazis said something similar about the German Jews just before they began exterminating them. It simply isn't true. The history of Jews in Eastern Europe and Russia is hardly a secret. It's a little late for revisionis\

Really? You know better?
Ignorance always knows better!
Its not a secret at all indeed. the ashkenazi have been much better-off than the aborigens in eastern europe...

\From owning land, of course. The most fundamental restriction of all in an agrarian society where social acceptance and stature are based on real property. \

The land-owners were all the Ashkenazi!... Check the parents of Trotsky, grandparents of Lenin... The Ahskenazi owned the land and the Slavs worked on this land. Check the history of Russia, Ukraine and other slavic countries - who were the owners of public house, pothouses, landowners, illicit dealers, top criminals, bankers, pawnshop owners, heads of warehouses etc, 100% the Askenazi! family businesses! no slavs admitted!
Check the names of the russian\ukrainian oligarchs of nowdays...

Read the history of Kiev in tsarist time and after the revolution - try to find there at least one slavic name in the categories I mentioned!
Give it to me!!!
If you cant, stop repeating the shablons like a zombie!


You know who arranged the Baby Yar in Kiev - helped the nazis to kill the jews and slavs there? the mayor of kiev - an Ashkenazi! Check all the names of the admisnistration of Kiev, Moscow and other main cities!
Who were the members and leaders of NKVD, CHK who, instead the Zionists, killed the Slavs?


being a psychiatrist and dealing with genetics, I dont need to consult wiki on this subject. But I do know whats going on in this direction, the problems and real value of such researches...
the ashkenazi is a category, not a group and it cant be analized as a group! all this research of mr.cohran is based on controvercial results (without any proof because there can be NO proof yet!) and stereotypes of mainstream theories of the ashkenazi "history". This research is a bubble!

you call me a hater?
You may call me anything you like. Its your problem that you give silly shablons instead of plausible argumentation... develop critical thinking!

I do hate the professionals, in any sphere, who cynically cheat people, their profession and abuse Moral...
Look at yourself! What trash you are repeating! But its not your fault, you believe the professional who has written a book for you to read...



[edit on 14-2-2009 by Russi]

Interesting argument, possibley true. I would like to see proof that the average jew is smarter ect then the average person from another race. I'm sure you know their are a lot of streotypes such as Asians tend to be smarter blacks not so much, but are they true? If they are is it linked to genetics? or are their other factors.

You seem to think that "intelligence" is evolution. There is more than one criteria by which to judge the extent of evolution of a race.

But lets talk about intelligence for a minute anyway.

Have you ever met a musical prodigy? Or a child who could paint like the best masters when he was only 7 years old? Perhaps a little kid who only wanted stacks of blank paper for Christmas because the only thing he enjoyed doing all day was working with mathematical equations.

... Or a girl who was brilliant at caring for animals. That kid down the street who was always taking apart appliances and toys to get parts to build robots with. Or that girl you knew in college who was always taking black and white photographs and mixing them in with collages of living flowers or her own blood. What's that all about?


You see... there are MANY kinds of intelligences. As a human family we NEED all of them. Everyone has a unique talent to contribute to the betterment of the human race. Diversity is the key to survival.

If you don't have diversity, you have a crop that is susceptible to attack. Plant your fields with just 1 species of food crop, and if any disease or parasite comes along that can kill 1 single plant, then your entire harvest is gone. Plant it with a variety of foods, and you're much more likely to have something to eat later on.

The same is true with people. We are different sizes, shapes, colors, and personalities for a reason. We need each other, with all our differences included.


Now, there's another talent out there that I haven't spoke of yet. Another "genius," if you will. And this one is different than all the rest.

This talent is not one of coming up with new ideas to make manufacturing more efficient. It doesn't create any form of beauty or art to make life more enjoyable. It doesn't have any talent with its hands to do the work that is needed to create civilization. Instead, this talent is one of manipulating those that do, and taking from them what they want. It is called "parasitism."

There are some who live among us who have no talent, and no genius other than finding clever ways to take from those with the ability to create. And their genius also includes that special talent of evading discovery, capture, or punishment.


Historically, they have existed as many different races and people. They pop up everywhere. And yes, sometimes they have been given racist labels.

But I would never call them "evolved."


It is only by mere coincidence that this particular talent happens to be the one which also "rules" the world, but they congratulate themselves and believe that it is by virtue of the design of nature that they possess the right to do what they do. They believe that wealth and power are the only true measure of value, so they naturally see themselves as "most fit" in a Darwinian sense. But only by chance does the talent to steal from many happen to be the talent to gain so much. Had playing the piano carried with it the auxiliary bonus of political and economic power, then the world would be run by musicians.

However, it is not. It is run by thieves.



[edit on 14-2-2009 by username371]

reply to post by MatrixProphet

Well what about the Chinese? Haven't they been around the longest? At least in recorded history? Are they not a tough, resilient group? Excuse my naivete but I believe they warrant some attention, as I believe they were here long before the Jews.

Eu, as they say, reka.

How math furthered evolution

The rise of settlements also promoted the breakdown of labor into specialized jobs. That, coupled with food surpluses from farming, led to systems of trade and the need to track the flow of resources, which in turn could have selected for individuals with specific cognitive strengths.

“Mathematical ability is very important when it comes to keeping track of crops and bartering,” Wang says. “Certainly your working memory has to be better. You have to remember who owes you what.”

The researchers point to China’s Mandarin system, a method of screening individuals for positions as tax collectors and other government administrators. For nearly 2,000 years, starting in A.D. 141, the sons of a broad cross section of Chinese society, including peasants and tradesmen, took the equivalent of standardized tests. “Those who did well on them would get a good job in the civil service and oftentimes had multiple wives, while the other sons remained in a rice field,” Moyzis says. “Probably for thousands of years in some cultures, certain kinds of intellectual ability may have been tied to reproductive success.”

From a very cool (for a change) MSNBC article entitled Human Evolution Kicks into High Gear - which reports that not just the Jews, but maybe the whole human race has been evolving away like fury for the last few thousand years.