Britain accuses Bush team of threat over terror case

Originally posted by slicobacon
What I gather from this is - we very much disagree with your interrogation of terrorist techniques BUT you had better share the info you get!

Then I suggest you go gather some more my friend.

This is about bringing criminals to justice - whether they are military or civilian.

It is a very dangerous path indeed when you remove the accountability of the people in positions of power and trust.

[edit on 5/2/2009 by skibtz]

Originally posted by Victoria 1
Give me a break! It is sick how dumb people are. First of all who the hell thinks the Brits should have a say in anything! They are soooo dumb and liberal that their cops don't carry guns. It is amazing how stories get turned around and are so misleading. You know what all this is? He said, she said. I never understood all this worry about the torture of terrorists. Who gives a crap. I think they should die without trial. And you say it like Bush was there and did it. You do know that he wasn't right? Or are you that stupid? Another funny thing is how countries are so anti-american, but when their country is in trouble who do they call first???? The USA! And that is because they can't do anything on their own. And besides waht britian calls torture is probably not giving them advanced health care and 4 meals a day. Don't speak on subjects that you have no evidence about, it makes you look STUPID!

Being a Brit, my initial intention when I first read your response was to jump to my countries defense. However after reading the rest of your post, it became clear that you've said more than I ever possibly could to discount any opinion you've put forward - so thanks for that.

OP: Just another example of American governments blatant disregard for anything but their own agenda.

Originally posted by Victoria 1
Give me a break! It is sick how dumb people are. First of all who the hell thinks the Brits should have a say in anything! They are soooo dumb and liberal that their cops don't carry guns. It is amazing how stories get turned around and are so misleading. You know what all this is? He said, she said. I never understood all this worry about the torture of terrorists. Who gives a crap. I think they should die without trial. And you say it like Bush was there and did it. You do know that he wasn't right? Or are you that stupid? Another funny thing is how countries are so anti-american, but when their country is in trouble who do they call first???? The USA! And that is because they can't do anything on their own. And besides waht britian calls torture is probably not giving them advanced health care and 4 meals a day. Don't speak on subjects that you have no evidence about, it makes you look STUPID!

Wow that rant is almost funny and worthy a response....anyway.....

Lets not forget this is our governments doing this, not the general public, not the members here.

I hope this doesn't slide into another rant against each other on here.

CX.

reply to post by CX


Too true CX

I try and add government after mentioning a country

It is all too easy to forget that usually what we are talking about are the results of actions/in-actions of governments here and not specifically the people!

Originally posted by Victoria 1

Don't speak on subjects that you have no evidence about, it makes you look STUPID!

You are so right, as ably demonstrated below:

And that is because they can't do anything on their own. And besides waht britian calls torture is probably not giving them advanced health care and 4 meals a day.

Yeah, that's our definition of torture, alright.

reply to post by ItstheShizzle


The ironic thing is...

...those prisoners (aside from the torture aspect!) are probably receiving better health care than the average US citizen.

The general feeling I get from US media is a constant stream of strong, upstanding morals, highly valued Christian beliefs and a general "Can do" attitude. And that's fine -- I'm not bashing that, nor the people that believe in that -- it's their choice and above all, their right.

[I can't say that I watch a great deal of US television or news programming, in fact I avoid anything with the Fox News logo like the plague and stick to the Daily Show and the Colbert Report ]

But what i can't get is how the US [govt that is, not the regular people] can imply that they *may not be able* to share further intel with the UK because we question the US' means of information extraction [torture], especially when it's against a UK national.

The US used torture as means to extract information from *suspected* terrorists. And I highlight the word suspected -- not confirmed. I find it absolutely deplorable that a country who uses the word 'God' and 'Trust' so frequently in most of their daily lives, one that decides which countries 'need' democracy next, would get the hump with the UK's questioning of their [US] using torture and to go public with it.

I'm not saying the UK is the shinning example for the world -- far from it -- we have our own history and current issues to be burdened with.

But the fact the US govt/agencies would hold back intel because we question them?! That's just downright shocking


EDIT - just wanted to reiterate that this wasn't directed at individual Americans but at the US govt and their local/foreign policies.

[edit on 5-2-2009 by noonebutme]

reply to post by noonebutme


Of course the other side of coin may well be that the US really doesn't give a damn.

It could just as easily be that the UK are using the 'it would harm future US/UK intel' excuse to cover up the fact that they allowed a british national to be tortured.

And who is to say that it wasn't UK special forces doing the torturing?

With the issue out in the open the US may well be non-threating and just pointing out the fact that future intel may well be harmed.

reply to post by skibtz


Point taken. I have since read that indeed, it could be MI5 that did the actual torturing. Yahoo UK News

Though, one could still argue the treatment, policies and conditions the prisoners were subject to at Gitmo were tantamount to torture.

Originally posted by Victoria 1
Give me a break! It is sick how dumb people are. First of all who the hell thinks the Brits should have a say in anything! They are soooo dumb and liberal that their cops don't carry guns. It is amazing how stories get turned around and are so misleading. You know what all this is? He said, she said. I never understood all this worry about the torture of terrorists. Who gives a crap. I think they should die without trial. And you say it like Bush was there and did it. You do know that he wasn't right? Or are you that stupid? Another funny thing is how countries are so anti-american, but when their country is in trouble who do they call first???? The USA! And that is because they can't do anything on their own. And besides waht britian calls torture is probably not giving them advanced health care and 4 meals a day. Don't speak on subjects that you have no evidence about, it makes you look STUPID!

That is the only reason I quoted your post.
The chance to laugh at you publicly was too good an opportunity to miss. I almost had to respond to the American who doesn't know the difference between a comma and an apostrophe too, but their credibility is just as non-existent as yours, so why bother?

Learn ENGLISH, please?


I am not surprised at the actions of America in this instance. I am certain it goes on all the time. We just never get to hear about it.

Never believe this "close relationship" BS, it was and is all PR. Nothing more.
We have spies over there, you have spies over here.

We are in a business relationship, and these businesses do not play by any set rules.
In contrast, I don't believe the UK would make such a demanding threat to the USA, because it's in our nature to be more diplomatic than outrageously arrogant. And it seems to be favored by American government to make demands, block progress and generally act like a stubborn child whenever it feels it's not getting what it wants.
That's my impression of the US government, not the US people.

America should let this one go. After all, they can now blame this entire thing on the last government.
The revelations that torture was used against prisoners is not new. We all knew this was going on, to deny such is naive and stupid. America now needs to face up to the facts that their government broke international law.

Whether you agree with torture under certain circumstances or not, it is against international law.
The American government broke international law and those responsible should be punished.

There is no debate needed here. You break a law that you are obliged to comply with and you face the consequences of your actions. Just as any of us would find sympathy lacking if we broke a law of our nation and then demanded that it be "overlooked"

War crimes can be ignored when it's Israel.
International law over torture can be ignored when it's America.

The hypocrisy and arrogance is truly astounding.

Originally posted by noonebutme
Though, one could still argue the treatment, policies and conditions the prisoners were subject to at Gitmo were tantamount to torture.

Absolutely.

The guy being interviewed on TV this morning stated that, as part of the legal team, he had been privy to the documents and was certain, beyond doubt, that torture took place there.

[edit on 5/2/2009 by skibtz]

Originally posted by CX
I posted this last night....

Miliband denies US intel threat

It was on page two of breaking news with no replies when i woke up this morning, i was quite shocked it didn't get a response considering the subject.

Then again the title might not have been that interesting, i just copied what Sky News had written.

I think it's just a matter of timing - some of us non-US members post when most folk are in bed. 11 hours prior to the OP my more inflammatory topic title UK judges accuse Obama Administration of suppressing torture claim also garnered no response.

This was also a direct quote from a MSM headline (Times, February 4, 2009 ).
See the topic for links to more mainstream coverage. In fact BBC Newsnight covered the story at some length yesterday evening.

Specific mention that Obama is upholding this came in these two newspaper quotes:

Lord Justice Thomas and Mr Justice Lloyd Jones said lawyers for the Foreign Secretary had told them that the threat by the United States still applied under President Barack Obama's Administration.

It was also revealed that Mr Miliband had recently checked and that Barack Obama’s administration was standing by the threat

Edited to add:

Originally posted by detachedindividual
America should let this one go. After all, they can now blame this entire thing on the last government.

That's where your analysis breaks down I think. The "they" you refer to will continue to protect themselves and their puppets.


[edit on 5-2-2009 by EvilAxis]

Originally posted by noonebutme
The general feeling I get from US media is a constant stream of strong, upstanding morals, highly valued Christian beliefs and a general "Can do" attitude. And that's fine -- I'm not bashing that, nor the people that believe in that -- it's their choice and above all, their right.

[I can't say that I watch a great deal of US television or news programming, in fact I avoid anything with the Fox News logo like the plague and stick to the Daily Show and the Colbert Report

]

But what i can't get is how the US [govt that is, not the regular people] can imply that they *may not be able* to share further intel with the UK because we question the US' means of information extraction [torture], especially when it's against a UK national.

The US used torture as means to extract information from *suspected* terrorists. And I highlight the word suspected -- not confirmed. I find it absolutely deplorable that a country who uses the word 'God' and 'Trust' so frequently in most of their daily lives, one that decides which countries 'need' democracy next, would get the hump with the UK's questioning of their [US] using torture and to go public with it.

I'm not saying the UK is the shinning example for the world -- far from it -- we have our own history and current issues to be burdened with.

But the fact the US govt/agencies would hold back intel because we question them?! That's just downright shocking

EDIT - just wanted to reiterate that this wasn't directed at individual Americans but at the US govt and their local/foreign policies.

I do not intend to start a fight or disrespect you in any way; however, you obviously do not know very much about this country. I am quite uncertain where you get your information from, but please allow me to help you understand the US a little better.

First, our media has no morals. It's all about just two things, money and control. If this is being reported in American media, it has an obscured purpose behind it. I do not know what it may be at the time, but it will come to light eventually. Perhaps the new President is up to something and this is their diversionary tactic, who knows, ask me in 3 months I could probably tell you then.

Second, If we had ANY Christian beliefs or morals, we would not be in the mess we are now. They don't even allow the kids in school here to say the Lord's prayer anymore. Some of us PEOPLE do in fact have strong Christian morals and values; however, our government does NOT share these qualities. Again I say, if that were the case, we would not be in the mess we are now.

Third, you can watch any form of news medium you wish; however, if you do not use it in comparison against 4 or 5 other sources you will never get anything close to the truth. Most of our media presents approximately 15% truth to give the story some validity, if you use some critical thinking and comparisons you can at least get half the story.

Fourth, No-one has yet been able to understand the motivations of evil people, don't feel bad if you can't either. These people do not think the same way that you and I do; therefore, it is exceptionally difficult for us to understand them and their motives (That is in reference to the comment that you can't understand why they would threaten to withhold intel).

Fifth, every single one us of here are hypocrites in this discussion. I would like to meet the person that would not resort to primitive behavior and torture if their child was kidnapped and they found someone with information regarding it and they refused to talk. I do not know about any of you, but myself, I use ANY MEANS AVAILABLE to get that information from them, my children are far more important to me than any of your laws or beliefs. I am not making excuses for what has been done as I myself find it detestable; however, put in a similar situation, I think we would all respond similarly.

Lastly, if your "NOBLE" people were so concerned about this, why did they take the cowardly path and wait til Bush was out of office? Surely if it meant that much to them, they would have had the testicles to stand up to the atrocity. Again I am not agreeing with what happened, I detest it, but, the fact is this: You don't try to help someone after the fact, unless your only looking for attention. Your judges, should have been a little more brave. If you want my honest opinion, it looks bad for your whole country, makes you look like cowards. I am not saying this is how you are so please do not misinterpret what I am saying, it just gives that impression.

[edit on 2/5/2009 by DarrylGalasso]

Gordon Brown today insisted that the UK did not support or condone torture as the foreign secretary defended the government's decision not to disclose US documents on a British Guantánamo detainee.

Asked whether he was satisfied that no British officials had been complicit in the torture or ill-treatment of detainees, the prime minister told a Downing Street press conference: "Our policy is not to support torture or to condone torture, and we support President [Barack] Obama in his decision that the US will not use torture either."

UK does not support or condone torture, says Gordon Brown
Guardian, Thursday 5 February 2009

The British government are in damage limitation mode. The prime minister's comments are transparently diversionary.

The UK "does not support or condone torture". Wow. Gordon Brown utters this platitude while supporting the obstruction of the fair trial of a man who almost certainly was tortured.

Notice how he refuses to answer whether he's "satisfied that no British officials had been complicit in the torture or ill-treatment of detainees".

@DarrylGalasso, But what does it say about America? Also I agree with the child thing etc etc but if you found someone SUSPECTED, i repeat SUSPECTED, not confirmed to be a terrorist, so might not have any info, would you torture him for it? Your comparison is flaw

reply to post by ho chi minh


I don't take anyone as a joke being an American, and to actually see you think all Americans might not actually like you guys is ..well..I don't know..guess all I'm really saying is I'll always have a place in my heart for the brothers across the pond. Hell..wish I was there, in stead of here right now..but what do I know...

reply to post by Victoria 1


What about innocent so called terrorists! I suppose they should all die as well?? You come here calling the OP dumb. I think you need to have a good look in the mirror, all I see is you describing yourself!

I am so shocked at the responses of some of my so called countrymen that I barely know what to say.

Torture is wrong, no discussion necessary. I personally don't have it in me to do horrible things to another human being regardless of the offense committed. Please understand the opinions here are just that opinions and you know the old American saying about opinions. We all have them along with other parts.

I know one thing, if the Obama administration is also complicit in holding this information, dissapointment is mild compared to how I will feel!!! We cannot say one thing out of one side of our mouths, torture is wrong, and with the other side, we will not prosecute!!!!

When we behave as barbarians and disregard the Geneva Convention and other national treaties and laws regarding treatment of prisoners of war................we can't complain when our men and women are treated in like manner.

Though the US and the UK are similar in many ways we have our own unique cultures. I could no more understand the way things are done in England than they could over here. Bottom line is this:we all bleed red, love our children and want the same things...........safety and security for our loved ones. STOP THE HATRED! Please know that the ignorance you hear on this thread is NOT the majority.

let the games begin (as usual)

Peace
Kirky

I thank you for your honesty,at the end of the day the uk is a small country and is punching well above it's weight. Let's face it most Americans see the British as a joke,to be treated as equal or with any respect is far too much to hope for.

The UK has always punched above it's weight, that's what makes it Great Britain. Its pound for pound world champ for the past 1000 years. If you can't repsect that your a fool. Time tells the tale, you've only been on top 50 years, and your already slipping.