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Originally posted by Stillresearchn911
What exactly would one have to go through to obtain a job at AA or UAL flying one of the 757 or 767 model aircraft?
To be precise say if someone with no experience at all woke up and decided they wanted to fly the above mentioned aircraft for those airlines, what would it entail please be as precise as possible especially in things like needed flight hours, needed exams or licenses, or any other details you can give.
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It would take YEARS, I think its the same now but back when I trained you had to have as minimums 40 hours (under various situations and conditions) of flight time to be qualified to take the exam for a private pilots license. 250 for a commercial license, not counting a needed instrument rating, a jet type rating and the multiengine rating.
all the detail you need can be found in the FAR/AIM.
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Also would the answer to the first question be different if it was changed to no experience wanting to learn how to fly 757/767 for say another airliner say in the cargo business follow me? Would it be drastically different from answer one?
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No, it would be the same
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Also, say you owned a 757 jet and wanted to fly it. What would be required to take it off the ground legally in the US.?
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A pilots license and the required type certificates and ratings
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What exactly is a Multi engine license (I gather its a license to operate a aircraft that has multiple engines) but and If you cover this in the above question never mind. What is the significance of this license and what do you have to do to obtain it, what does the test involve?
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Multiengine is an add on rating, not a license, you must show proficiency and knowledge required for safe operation of the aircraft.
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These aircrafts cockpits look incredibly sophisticated is this not the case?
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They are incredibly sophisticated.
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Is it really possible with the knowledge of a few key things one could operate the aircraft with relative ease without ever had even flown these aircraft before ever except for a multiple hours in a simulator.
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Possible? yes, probable?, a resounding no.
Again, google FAR/AIM all your questions will be answered.
From the ridiculous to the sublime...
Federal Aviation Administration records show [Hanjour] obtained a commercial pilot's license in April 1999, but how and where he did so remains a lingering question that FAA officials refuse to discuss. His limited flying abilities do afford an insight into one feature of the attacks: The conspiracy apparently did not include a surplus of skilled pilots. [Cape Cod Times]
Flight Academy Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot. "I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon," the former employee said. "He could not fly at all." [New York Times]
At Freeway Airport in Bowie, Md., 20 miles west of Washington, flight instructor Sheri Baxter instantly recognized the name of alleged hijacker Hani Hanjour when the FBI released a list of 19 suspects in the four hijackings. Hanjour, the only suspect on Flight 77 the FBI listed as a pilot, had come to the airport one month earlier seeking to rent a small plane.
However, when Baxter and fellow instructor Ben Conner took the slender, soft-spoken Hanjour on three test runs during the second week of August, they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single-engine Cessna 172. Even though Hanjour showed a federal pilot's license and a log book cataloging 600 hours of flying experience, chief flight instructor Marcel Bernard declined to rent him a plane without more lessons.
In the spring of 2000, Hanjour had asked to enroll in the CRM Airline Training Center in Scottsdale, Ariz., for advanced training, said the center's attorney, Gerald Chilton Jr. Hanjour had attended the school for three months in late 1996 and again in December 1997 but never finished coursework for a license to fly a single-engine aircraft, Chilton said.
When Hanjour reapplied to the center last year, "We declined to provide training to him because we didn't think he was a good enough student when he was there in 1996 and 1997" Chilton said. [Newsday]
"This guy could not solo a Cessna 150 ... and what I mean by solo is a pilot's first time out without anyone in the cockpit with him. It's the most simple, the most fundamental flying exercise one can engage in..."
On December 12, 2000, [Nawaf al Hazmi and Hani Hanjour] were settling in Mesa, Arizona, and Hanjour was ready to brush up on his flight training [Brush up? He could barely fly a Cessna]. By early 2001, he was using a Boeing 737 simulator. Because his performance struck his flight instructors as sub-standard, they discouraged Hanjour from continuing, but he persisted.
At a speed of about 500 miles an hour, the plane was headed straight for what is known as P-56, protected air space 56, which covers the White House and the Capitol.
"The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane," says O'Brien. "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe." [NATCA]
But just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot [Hanjour] executed a pivot so tight that it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver. The plane circled 270 degrees to the right to approach the Pentagon from the west, whereupon Flight 77 fell below radar level, vanishing from controllers' screens, the sources said.
Less than an hour after two other jets demolished the World Trade Center in Manhattan, Flight 77 carved a hole in the nation's defense headquarters, a hole five stories high and 200 feet wide.
Aviation sources said the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm, possibly one of the hijackers. Someone even knew how to turn off the transponder, a move that is considerably less than obvious. [Washington Post]
"For a guy to just jump into the cockpit and fly like an ace is impossible - there is not one chance in a thousand," said [ex-commercial pilot Russ] Wittenberg, recalling that when he made the jump from Boeing 727's to the highly sophisticated computerized characteristics of the 737's through 767's it took him considerable time to feel comfortable flying. [LewisNews]
Is it pure coincidence that the above mentioned "fighter jet maneuver" steered Flight 77 into a barely habited newly reinforced section of the Pentagon? Why didn't the USAF intervene in the aerial acrobatics of Flight 77?
The Project for the New American Century, or PNAC, was founded in 1997. The group's Statement of Principles [PDF] published September 2000 stated that "some catastrophic and catalyzing event, like a new Pearl Harbor" would advance their policies.
Dov Zakheim is a co-author of the Statement of Principles and an ex-CEO of System Planning Corporation which manufactures equipment to remotely pilot aircraft. Zakheim was appointed as Undersecretary of Defense and Comptroller of the Pentagon by President Bush on May 4, 2001.
Chevrette said that the school's student, Hani Hanjour, lacked adequate English skills to gain his pilot's license. An FAA official responded to her concerns by suggesting that Hanjour could use an interpreter even though mastery of English is a requirement for a pilot.
Chevrette said that when the Sept. 11 attacks occurred, she knew Hanjour must have been involved.
"I remember crying all the way to work knowing our company helped to do this," she said.
Chevrette said that Hanjour's English was so bad that it took him eight hours to complete an oral exam that should've taken two hours.
FBI agents have questioned and administered a lie detector test to one of Hanjour's instructors in Arizona who was an Arab American and had signed off on Hanjour's flight instruction credentials before he got his pilot's license.
That instructor said he told agents that Hanjour was "a very average pilot, maybe struggling a little bit." The instructor added, "Maybe his English wasn't very good."
Hanjour successfully conducted a challenging certification flight supervised by an instructor at Congressional Air Charters of Gaithersburg, Maryland, landing at a small airport with a difficult approach.The instructor thought Hanjour may have had training from a military pilot because he used a terrain recognition system for navigation. Eddie Shalev interview (Apr.9, 2004).
-Marcel Bernard Chief Instructor-www.historycommons.org...
"Despite Hanjour's poor reviews, he did have some ability as a pilot, said Bernard of Freeway Airport. "There's no doubt in my mind that once that [hijacked jet] got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it," he said"
As I've explained in at least one prior column, Hani Hanjour's flying was hardly the show-quality demonstration often described. It was exceptional only in its recklessness. If anything, his loops and turns and spirals above the nation's capital revealed him to be exactly the #ty pilot he by all accounts was. To hit the Pentagon squarely he needed only a bit of luck, and he got it, possibly with help from the 757's autopilot. Striking a stationary object -- even a large one like the Pentagon -- at high speed and from a steep angle is very difficult. To make the job easier, he came in obliquely, tearing down light poles as he roared across the Pentagon's lawn.
It's true there's only a vestigial similarity between the cockpit of a light trainer and the flight deck of a Boeing. To put it mildly, the attackers, as private pilots, were completely out of their league. However, they were not setting out to perform single-engine missed approaches or Category 3 instrument landings with a failed hydraulic system. For good measure, at least two of the terrorist pilots had rented simulator time in jet aircraft, but striking the Pentagon, or navigating along the Hudson River to Manhattan on a cloudless morning, with the sole intention of steering head-on into a building, did not require a mastery of airmanship. The perpetrators had purchased manuals and videos describing the flight management systems of the 757/767, and as any desktop simulator enthusiast will tell you, elementary operation of the planes' navigational units and autopilots is chiefly an exercise in data programming. You can learn it at home. You won't be good, but you'll be good enough.
"They'd done their homework and they had what they needed," says a United Airlines pilot (name withheld on request), who has flown every model of Boeing from the 737 up. "Rudimentary knowledge and fearlessness."
"As everyone saw, their flying was sloppy and aggressive," says Michael (last name withheld), a pilot with several thousand hours in 757s and 767s. "Their skills and experience, or lack thereof, just weren't relevant."
"The hijackers required only the shallow understanding of the aircraft," agrees Ken Hertz, an airline pilot rated on the 757/767. "In much the same way that a person needn't be an experienced physician in order to perform CPR or set a broken bone."
That sentiment is echoed by Joe d'Eon, airline pilot and host of the "Fly With Me" podcast series. "It's the difference between a doctor and a butcher," says d'Eon.
Originally posted by Stillresearchn911
These aircrafts cockpits look incredibly sophisticated is this not the case? Is it really possible with the knowledge of a few key things one could operate the aircraft with relative ease without ever had even flown these aircraft before ever except for a multiple hours in a simulator.
Originally posted by Stillresearchn911
What exactly would one have to go through to obtain a job at AA or UAL flying one of the 757 or 767 model aircraft?
Originally posted by Stillresearchn911
To be precise say if someone with no experience at all woke up and decided they wanted to fly the above mentioned aircraft for those airlines, what would it entail please be as precise as possible especially in things like needed flight hours, needed exams or licenses, or any other details you can give.
Originally posted by Stillresearchn911
Also would the answer to the first question be different if it was changed to no experience wanting to learn how to fly 757/767 for say another airliner say in the cargo business follow me?
Originally posted by Stillresearchn911
Would it be drastically different from answer one? Also, say you owned a 757 jet and wanted to fly it. What would be required to take it off the ground legally in the US.?
Some categories are further broken down into more specific classes of aircraft.
Airplane class ratings include single-engine land, multi-engine land, single-engine sea, and multi-engine sea.
Rotorcraft class ratings include helicopter and gyroplane.
Lighter-than-air class ratings include airship, and balloon
Type ratings are required in a specific make and model of airplane if the airplane is "large" (greater than 12,500 lb (5,700 kg) gross takeoff weight) or powered by one or more jet engines. Boeing 747, DC-10, and Dash-8 are examples of type ratings.
ultralight category of aircraft in the US requires no specific training and no certification. Examples include powered parachute, and weight-shift-control aircraft. However, sporting groups give extensive training and certification for these aircraft.
The pilot can separately add certain ratings, such as the instrument rating.
Originally posted by Stillresearchn911
What exactly is a Multi engine license (I gather its a license to operate a aircraft that has multiple engines) but and If you cover this in the above question never mind. What is the significance of this license and what do you have to do to obtain it, what does the test involve?
Originally posted by Stillresearchn911
These aircrafts cockpits look incredibly sophisticated is this not the case? Is it really possible with the knowledge of a few key things one could operate the aircraft with relative ease without ever had even flown these aircraft before ever except for a multiple hours in a simulator.
Originally posted by Stillresearchn911
According to the commission Atta was the only one with a multi engine rating. Why would he have it..or would he get it for a specific aircraft? Is it basically insignificant and just something he obtained while on his way to supposedly be a commercial pilot.
Originally posted by Stillresearchn911
How much it cost for flight simulator time. I remember hearing that this was how Moussaoui was basically caught, he tried to pay a large sum of cash for 747 time I believe.
Originally posted by Stillresearchn911
What I'm getting at is that the commission says they(the hijackers) spent at least half of a million dollars and I have to assume the majority was on flight time and lessons since it seems to be so expensive. I'm looking for typical amounts.
Captain Russ Wittenberg
30,000+ Total Flight Time
707, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777
Pan Am, United
United States Air Force (ret)
Over 100 Combat Missions Flown
Has time in:
- N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93)
- N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175)
Watch Youtube clip of Capt Wittenberg here...
youtube.com...
"I couldn't believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had," said Peggy Chevrette, the JetTech manager."
"The operations manager for the now-defunct JetTech flight school in Phoenix said she called the FAA inspector that oversaw her school three times in January and February 2001 to express her concerns about Hanjour. "
Check right side margin of Source page for more on Hani.
Originally posted by Stillresearchn911They must of had some system to breach the cockpit that was full proof.
Originally posted by defcon5
You need about 5000 total hours, I believe, in single VFR, IFR, Multi Engine, Jets by class (weight and engine), a commercial pilots license, and the big license you need is a TPL (transport Pilots License). You need to meet medical criteria for these licenses as well, especially eyesight. You can always find truthers out there trying to play that they are professional pilots by stating that they have a “commercial” rating, but that is a fairly simple license to get, and does not make them pilots qualified to fly for a commercial airlines.
More on Hani Hanjour here....
"I couldn't believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had," said Peggy Chevrette, the JetTech manager."
"The operations manager for the now-defunct JetTech flight school in Phoenix said she called the FAA inspector that oversaw her school three times in January and February 2001 to express her concerns about Hanjour. "
Check right side margin of Source page for more on Hani.
Originally posted by defcon5
Additionally, when you try and rent a plane at an airport that you have not flown at before, or when you have not flown for awhile, they ding you for a flight with their instructors before they let you rent an aircraft.
Originally posted by defcon5
I would guess that the committee were simply shocked at the way that the old doors were built, or how easily they could be breached. There were a lot of things in the old days that would shock those not in the know. Hopefully that has all changed post 911.
Originally posted by Stillresearchn911simply kick the door in.
They said they have no proof of this and in all except f93 (which strangely mmultiple passenger reports of only 3 hijackers when there are really 4) that all of the hijackers were accounted for outside of the cockpit before takeovers.