Mig 29 better than F-16 ?

How would the Russians know exactly what the Chinese losses were?

because they gave those planes, they were training pilots, and direct attacks, those are the "russian air forces",and when i did say 400 migs????

[edit on 29-1-2005 by grunt2]

Back to topic...

I prefer the MiG-29's looks and I prefer the F-16's avionics, but hell, if someone would teach me to fly any of them and gave one to me for free, i'd be eternally grateful! both are EXCELLENT machines...

As for how many F-86's were killed VS MiG-15s...I can only say one thing:

WHO GIVES A CRAP! they were BOTH excellent aircraft! BOTH sides had good pilots, what does it matter who won?

This is just as petty as sports fans fighting on who's best...and besides, we all know the New Zealand airforce PWNS us all! j/k

500 chinese, korean migs, hell even if you give them f15s the kill rate would been negative, at the mid 1951 the russian had delivered 70-75 planes in the theatre

The Chinese were veterans of WW2. They had Soviet training. What exactly made them so much inferior?

at early 52, the russians had gone,man the kills made by the f86s were only 345 (confirmed by russian data), not 800, and was very very clear that in the 340 planes are counting chinese-korean machines, if you dont want to accept this, its your problem

I go by what is said. When something says Russian losses specifically, I count that to Russia. I don't go throwing in other nations. There's no sense in that.

because they gave those planes, they were training pilots, and direct attacks, those are the "russian air forces",and when i did say 400 migs????

You said it earlier in this topic:

great...what your saying that all the wing (300 planes) were downed??? so the russians in the end fought in birds???, if you consider the cuantify of the aces that would be impossible, they left those planes in korea

If you weren't saying that there were only a few hundred Mig-15's, then what were you saying?

The MiG Fulcrum is a legend and everyone should agree on that. Personally I think the F 16 is simply a pretty fighter. Of course The Eagle beat the Fulrum. The Fulrum has to rely on it's radar whereas the Eagle has the AWAC giving it positions of enemy fighters and the best way to intercept the fighter craft, which is mostly from behind. A woman is advantaged over a man if she creep up behind him Pound for pound the MiG is still better than the Eagle. The MiG is so effective they downed a U.F.O in in the Tien Shan mountains of Russia where as the Eagle fighted advantaged dogfights with MiG 21s and 25s. Don't forget that around 95' SIXTY U.S. airfraft where sent to down the MiG Fulcrum when saddam violated the No-Fly zones.

Mig-29's have been downed by F-16 and F-15's. F-16's have beaten Mig-29's in exercises, as have F-18's. The Mig Fulcrum is certainly NOT a legend. The thing has a horrible combat record. It's yet to shoot down anything in combat, and over a dozen have been lost.

The UFO comment...That's just nonsense.

Hello.
And we have the s awacs , A 50
this is a a-50

and that is

and thatis what we have and you have'n a 126
You mast know that is tcenics from 1962 ne spor so mnou


and this again .
hello and the new typ lockator was in the mig 31 1978 with new typ air-to-a missels r-33 long range, and then in 1985 the r-37 and lockator to get 320km + and that in the Mig 31M .

it

is r-37
6 mach, 300 ran

[edit on 29-1-2005 by Fenix F 308]

[edit on 29-1-2005 by Fenix F 308]

[edit on 29-1-2005 by Fenix F 308]

I live in the place that war is or war isn't shout down the U.F.O but no Sha tain or same I dont know, and shout that theori S-200 after the 1965 y..

disturbed, the max quantify of russian squad asigned for korean operations (but not in active fights) were 300 planes (1953 russian pilots), that not count chinese-korean migs, at mid 1951 were only 60-70 russian planes, the chinese - korean pilots were very,very inferior, north korea only had 2 confirmed aces, the same quantify to china, but they had the mayotity of planes, flying completely new machines, the point is that the f86s only donwed 340 planes not that 800 (in wich is based that 10-1 kill rate, because once it said that only 80-70 sabres were downed, but the true cuantify was higher), and that count all comunist planes.

[edit on 29-1-2005 by grunt2]

I go by what is said. When something says Russian losses specifically, I count that to Russia. I don't go throwing in other nations. There's no sense in that.

again

As no Chinese archives have been opened up at this time, only USAF claims against Russian air forces have been reviewed. (In other words, the claims against Chinese air forces are counted here, without any challenge.)

The numbers shown above, and used throughout, are claims, and are almost certainly in excess of the actual number of MiGs downed. During the war the USAF pilots claimed over 800 enemy planes. Postwar research revised that figure downward to 379, which closely matches the admitted Russian losses of 345.

During the time that the "Honchos" (the nickname given by the Sabre pilots to excellent MiG pilots) were in Korea, between April 1951 and January 1952, they shot down or damaged beyond repair 158 UN aircraft against 68 losses, an overall 2:1 kill ratio

Additionally, Korea was for the Russian MiG-15 pilots a "target-rich environment." In April-May 1951 there were only two regiments of MiG-15s in Manchuria, with a total of only 72 MiGs (despite the fantastic US reports which talked about 200 MiGs in China at that time). These six dozen MiGs faced about 700 UN aircraft, odds of 10 to 1. The arrival of the 3 regiments of the 303rd IAD reduced the odds to 4 to 1 by October 1951, but the Soviets actually never enjoyed the numerical superiority so often mentioned in US sources. By July 1953 the Russians had about 300 MiG-15s in the theater (plus a similar number of Chinese MiGs)

ohhh, man use your brain...and when i said 400 migs????



[edit on 29-1-2005 by grunt2]

how i know in first time korea (1951-1952 ) have 34 pilot die and 72 or 73 aircraft shootin. All information about other year i don't know .
all aircraft 335 migs was downet in all war .

[edit on 29-1-2005 by Fenix F 308]

Mig-29's have been downed by F-16 and F-15's. F-16's have beaten Mig-29's in exercises, as have F-18's. The Mig Fulcrum is certainly NOT a legend. The thing has a horrible combat record. It's yet to shoot down anything in combat, and over a dozen have been lost.

Are you saying the MiG-29 NEVER shot ANYTHING down? not even with it's GUN? or is it's gun conveniently terrible too? like the AK-47 is so HORRIBLE inaccurate, trust me, the AK shoots fine at ranges up to 400 yards...

And as far as I know, the GSh-30-2 is a good system, so is the R-77 and R-27....

I believe many allied aircraft were downed above the gulf by MiGs! I'll try to find information about this....

I believe many allied aircraft were downed above the gulf by MiGs! I'll try to find information about this....

Where did you hear a thing like that? No American plane was lost in air to air combat that I know of.

Despite its apparent virtues, the MiG-29 has not fared well in actual combat use. It has flown in combat in the 1991 Gulf War, over Serbia, and in the Eritrea-Ethiopia conflict in 1999. At least a dozen have been shot down, with no victories. Some have seen this as a sign of the MiG-29's deficiencies, but it would perhaps be more accurate to say that its failure reveals that in modern aerial warfare, tactics, pilot training, and a complete air group (with electronic warfare, tactical recce, AWACS, and tanker support) are more significant than individual aircraft qualities

Source - en.wikipedia.org...

I don't think many planes will be shooting much down with their guns in future wars, either. Even in a World War. BVR has really overtaken dogfighting. I highly doubt you'd see a dogfight in any of these limited conflicts that we see today.

disturbed, the max quantify of russian squad asigned for korean operations (but not in active fights) were 300 planes (1953 russian pilots), that not count chinese-korean migs, at mid 1951 were only 60-70 russian planes, the chinese - korean pilots were very,very inferior, north korea only had 2 confirmed aces, the same quantify to china, but they had the mayotity of planes, flying completely new machines, the point is that the f86s only donwed 340 planes not that 800 (in wich is based that 10-1 kill rate, because once it said that only 80-70 sabres were downed, but the true cuantify was higher), and that count all comunist planes.

300 Russian planes may have been in theatre at once, but the Russians most likely replaced their losses. They didn't just let their forces dwindle. It's not like they just sent 300 planes for their pilots, and said that's all you're getting...Over three years time, planes were shot down and the forces were replenished.

The Russians did not leave after 1952, either. They removed some of their veteran pilots.

Your total number of planes lost includes all UN planes. That's hardly what I'd call fair. Few F-86's make up that figure. You and SiberianTiger like to write the list of planes that make up the figures, but F-86's were a small percent. There were a lot of different allied planes in the war, unlike with the communist forces. Most of those figures are bombers, and inferior fighters.

100 Sabres were lost. Over 300 Russian Mig-15's were lost. It's a 3:1 kill ratio.

That's the problem Disturbed doesn't know ANYTHING, I " SIBERIANTIGER" never said I'll just give F-86 planes downed, I gave F-80/84/86's downed and it was 1106 F-80/84/86's to 335 MiG15 now, we Russians never said U.S. didn't win the "Ground War" in Korea now if U.S. won the air and ground war why did the war end in a stale mate uh? what are you going to say now it didn't? HAHAHAHAAHAH and the MiG 29's shot down by U.S. are non Russian MiG's that don't have the same avionics ,radar systems and Russian dog fighting tactics so ofcourse U.S. will win until U.S. goes head to head with Rus MiG29's vs. F16 and when the F-16 wins then You yanks can raise your heads with glory staking claim your the best.

[edit on 30-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

[edit on 30-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

That 1000 figure is a joke. No one believes those figures. They've been brought down by most scholars just the way the 10:1 kill ratio America had was brought down.

Of that 1000, only 100 would have been Sabres, anyway. Saying that the figure is made up of a lot of planes, plus the F-86, while it technically wouldn't be a lie (if that was the real figure), is a misrepresentation.

More then 300 Mig-15's were shot down, as well. The number is well over 500 with all the communist forces factored in.

SHOW THE LINK- SITE RIGHT NOW I CHALLENGE YOU BEFORE THE ATS COMMUNITY RIGHT NOW RIGHT NOW PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!!! RIGHT NOW SHOW THE LINK WHERE U.S. SCHOLLARS HAVE SAID THIS ( I KNOW THEY HAVEN'T AND IF THEY DID IT WILL JUST BE YANK lying to help Yank make Rus look bad) now do as I said! plus Russia gave the TOTAL Korean- chinese- Rus MiG 15's that were brought down 231 Chinese/Korean MiG, Yaks and Sukoi's plus 335 Rus MiG 15's a total of 366 compared to 1106 that's still a killing and we (Russians ain't concerened with korean chinese figs) were showing our "MIGHTY RUS's MiG figures compared to F-80/84/86 figs

[edit on 30-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

[edit on 30-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

Wow. Did you miss the links already given that stated Russians overstated their kills?

PUT YOUR MONEY WERE YOUR MOUTH IS OR GET OFF ATS, HAHAHAAHAH WHAT'S THE MATTER HU? CAN'T GET ME THOSE SITES HU? WERE ARE THOSE SCHOLARS HU? HAHAHAAH

How could they do this, when all the American aces in that same period (Ralph Gibson, Dick Becker, etc) could only score 5-6 MiG kills? (except for the intrepid Major George A. Davis, who was credited with 14 kills) As a group, were the Russians 2-3 times better fighter pilots than their American opponents, as the claimed scores of 15 vs. 5 might imply? Not at all. Despite the secrecy surrounding Soviet operations in Korea and the lack of need to inflate the tally for propaganda purposes, several factors helped overstate Russian scores:

Many Soviet medium and high-ranking officers wanted to gain favour with the Soviet dictator Josif Stalin (well known for killing or deporting Soviet generals who failed in accomplish his wishes), and one way to do so was to inflate the score of the MiG regiments in Korea.
The Soviet pilots earn 1,500 additional rubles for every air victory they were credited with. It is quite likely that there were many false claims, just for the money.
The gun camera images of the MiG-15 were of such poor quality, that the Russian guncamera analysts decided that if a US plane appeared in a pic, then they would credit a "kill," even when they did not notice shell strikes, smoke, or an ejection.

www.acepilots.com...

this site a yank site ofcourse there going to say this claims of Russia's overstates, Rus has said 1106 F-80/84/86's TOTAL losses while VVS lost only 335 MiG 15s thats what we have always said.

[edit on 30-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

It's the same site that Grunt provided. It's the one that said America only shot down 300 Russian Mig-15's.