Heaven is impossible, they lied to you.

Heaven is an impossible concept and religion has been covering up the lie with faulty logic and by ignoring the real issues.

Here it is, When i was born i was but a babe empty headed and illogical. I grew and learnt about the world from those i was close to, from my mother i picked up kindness and empathy from my father cynicism and pragmatism. I merged these with my own thoughts and a thousand outside influences and became a person of my own, i learnt how to think, how to question and how to discover stuff for myself but i also learnt how to get along with people, people taught me things and i developed into a man. Those friends which have taught me so much have made me who i am and are part of my very being -and i am part of theirs.

When i die and lay in the ground till the end of time my friends may go on living a while but eventually we'll all end up in gods hall awaiting eternal justice....

God will pick out some people who have been good (440,000 or something wasn't it? but lets assume thats nonsense for now and that i or someone i know has a chance of being picked) and some who have been bad, What if I alone among my friends have been holy enough to get upstairs, heaven would suck. Yeah i'ld make loads of new friends 'oh hi tomas de torquemada good to see you' but i couldn't enjoy heaven without my friends, knowing they're suffering in hell i couldn't go and peer over and laugh like I'm supposed too.

So heaven could only exist for me with my friends, i won't even get into the issue of what happens if someone who likes me wants me to be in their heaven area but i don't like them -another impossible paradox. If you've ever seen the thing where they prove that everyone in the world can be linked via 7people you'll know that this means if you could get your mates into heaven everyone in history will thus automatically be let into heaven.

One of the many theological answers to this paradox is that when you rise to heaven it's your soul not your earth form which goes, well my entire being is made up of my life experience -i remember my mother teaching me how to understand why people act when i predict someones actions, i can feel the long line of working class people in my family history as i do a hard days graft, not a spiritual power but by way of my upbringing - my grandmother had been brought up to do things herself, my father grew up learning how to fix his own cars and i have no aversion to greasy hands or sore muscles -I am the product of my upbringing. That doesn't leave a tangible part of my awareness left to enjoy heaven, and i was promised i'd enjoy it.

You can't take away the bit of me that loves my friends and family, you can't bring all my family to heaven and i can't enjoy heaven without them.

So, the very concept of eternal bliss is impossible for me to ever win -I might as well not even try, really i better have as much fun this life as possible while still trying to make sure what's left of me (i.e. my imprint in the future generations) is as positive as possible. Then i can enjoy the silent sleep of death.

Very interesting thread!
Everyone can give you their opinion of what they think heaven will be like, all I can say is I have no idea. I too have pondered this very subject and like you I have thought -what if we each have our own heaven and what if someone I want nothing to do with in the next life wants me to be a part of their heaven...I wouldn't like it. Of course I have heard it explained that we won't remember our former lives or selves...who knows...

What can i say to this!!!

Knowledge is not love and understanding.But love is knowledge and understanding. There is a big difference in these two sayings.

With just knowledge you cant tell the difference between them. But with love you can. This might seam quite odd to think about. But try and think about it.

Within religion these things you wonder about is mention in different ways.

Death is just dead. Non existing

Resurrection is resurrecting you back to life in flesh. When this happens you will be before the judge Jesus, Not your friends. You will have other things to think about then.

When you die. You are dead. You are non existing until you get resurrected.

You dont go to heaven or hell to await your judgement. You lie in your grave to await been resurrected and judged.

If your found in the book of life you get to live. If not you will have your second death. Meaning being non existing for ever. If you get to live you will have no memory of past life.

The word hell is actually a junkyard form the old days. Where things is placed to rot away.

The pit is where the Antichrist, The false prophet and the Devil will be in the End.










[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by spy66


I know the mechanics of getting to heaven, read my post again i did say i would lie in the earth till those trumpets sound but after that then god either sends us to damnation or glory.

If we are a being, not much evidence to prove we aren't -that is to say a single unit of life. I will either die forever (no long exist, be able to think, etc) and that being will no longer exist or god will send me to one of two places. This is the standard model is it not?

I have been promised i can enjoy one of those places, my reward for being good in this life and worshiping god , etc is in heaven -again standard model right?

So if i am to enjoy heaven i can't know that my nearest and dearest are being tormented by the devil. Imagine sitting in a room while people in the next room torture your wife and kids, you would be going pretty crazy right?

If the girl i love had worshiped idols in her teens while i stayed pure in the eyes of god nothing that god could give me would make up for the fact that she was suffering. This is the problem.

If she is being hurt it will hurt me double, sound fair?

Think how bitter the sweetness of heaven would become, every soft chair and angelic harp would great on you.

Now, if god was to tinker with my mind, steal from me that which makes me me -erase those memories of moon lit walks and heart felt talks till the sun rose and i am no long me, i am not the person who earned the reward, i am not the person you promised to reward!

I am made of my friends, this is the truth religion wants to deny. God did not make me, his soul isn't enough to make me a whole person -i am of my friends and nothing can take that away from me, even in eternal sleep will that which i became echo though the ages of man -i need no god to live in death immortal.

reply to post by NatureBoy


Yes you can imagine this now. But if you get to the next life you wont know of your past life.

This is the deal you just have to accept. It is really not up to you to think or judge what is fair or not. You dont make the roles. You just have the choice to live by them or not.

Your friends apply to the same roles as everyone else.


[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by spy66


Ahh the classic cop out, i can't understand because i'm not god..

Neither were the people who wrote the bible, thats my point -it IS a paradox and people ignore it with faulty logic such as 'only god can understand' but what I say is its a lie, a faulty concept created by the power elite to trick people into wasting their earthly life doing whatever the clergy say.

Why believe the clergy when what they say is full of paradox, mistakes and lies? They seek only to control you, now that mankind is wiser and stronger we need to break free of the shackles of their old religion.

reply to post by NatureBoy


Well the word of God is a inspiration given to man. That's why i told you that knowledge is not love. But that love is knowledge.

Don't you see where the inspiration comes from. Your just using knowledge to try and reason all this. But you need love to really understand. You need to use moral,that's what this is all about.

Its all about your and your friends moral values. Your values is going to put you where you belong.

Ok to take this a bit further.

Nobody is going to heaven, The once who get to live will be getting a new earth. After God destroies this one with fire.

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

You have it wrong my friend...your soul / spirit has had many life times and your current body/vessel is alowing your soul to have a human experence at this time, a learning experence for your soul/ spirit . I dont belive there is a heaven as in some breaded guy sitting on a big throne but there is a place where your spirit goes after you die and you/it reviews the life lessons it has learned or didnt learn.
You will not have to worry about your family because their ( soul /spirit )too are going through the same thing . All your memories from each life time are stored in I guess you could say ..spirit realm..
Your soul/ spirit decides what lessons it still needs , wants and it then reincarnates at the appointed time into a family that is best suited to give that experence.
It is good that you love your family and friends but its not over when you die and its the same for all of us as we have been doing this for ..well who knows ,hundereds of thousands , millions, billions of years ( linear time)

reply to post by spy66


Ok so, i shouldn't use knowledge and wisdom but 'love' to decide, by love i assume you mean Faith right? or are you saying I should just feel the correct answer, the one that feel right?

I can;t just do what feels right at any other time, if i think its good to lie with man as man lies with woman then thats wrong. If i think it feels good to worship Ra thats wrong. If i think it feels right to draw pictures of god thats wrong - yet i should judge weather or not to believe in god and eternal bliss on a good feeling alone?

Faith, never question it and never doubt it -why? What would a god care if we believed in him? If i live my life doing nothing but good will i get turned away because i don't believe in god? because i didn't follow his rules?

Why would a corrupt clergy want me not to question their lies? HAHA so i don't realize that they're full of paradox and untruth!

It makes no sense that their is a god who keeps himself secret but demands we believe in him and follow his rules, it makes an awful lor of sense that a corrupt and powerhungry clergy created a web of lies to control the population.

I'm sorry to hear you have no hope that heaven is possible and that you're feeling lied to. It's been said, "If you don't believe in heaven, you'll prove yourself right". As an ex-aggresive agnostic, I remember the days of suicidal depression that had me frustrated by the lack of answers. Going by "seek and you will find", I did get that answer. I have my proof. No I cannot share my proof with you any more than I can prove to you what my Christmas was like in 1985. Instead, I was charged with the task of inviting others to also seek so that they may find their own proof as God is a very personal God. In reading your posts, it seems that you believe God would be unjust or unfair, to which I'd like to add He is perfectly just and perfectly fair. If we cannot trust that and insist on placing our own judgement above God's then there is a great stigma that will prevent it from seeing it in action. Instead of playing God, saying how things should be, it's best to take a close look at the way things are and seek to understand why they are this way. All the best in your search natureboy, I'll do my best to try to support you in the walk should you wish to pursue it.

[edit on 22-1-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by Reevster


i actually lean towards your belief, it's psudo-buddist spirituality is almost a working metaphore for the 'universal truth' of a logical world.

I don't believe in the guy with a beard or a version of myself made from anything but my experience on earth and my biology however i do believe my life is in a way eternal, ever repeating and always learning.

Back in the hunter gatherer days man was foolish, wild and savage - somewhere someone stopped and drew a picture, waited for his friend and helped some one do something - those people effected the whole world, they caused a ripple which echoed through the ages, that spark of wonder which is a wonder of life was created in a billion different people all through history. 'that person in some way, his wonder and his desires lived again when rome was built and when brittania sailed the waves, when we went to space and will again a thousand times more smile with pride as his work,

That collection of feelings and desires that makes us us is made out of a slim number of possible feelings - you can either laugh or cry about it, you can either feel like the king of the world or stig of the dump. That small nexus of possible opinions and feelings which make up your character probably has a billion different combinations -that means there are six people like you on earth right now!

Not only do your actions ripple through time but your exact character will come up again time after time, always different but always at the core the same -there have been star crossed lovers right back to shakespears times and beyond, power mad despots and wise sages. I think although this exact version of me will fade away, another me will already be taking my place.

reply to post by NatureBoy


NatureBoy, perhaps heaven is nothing at all like Christians tell you. Please tell me your honest interpretation of what heaven is like from this fundamental Christian book called "Matthew":

"Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'

28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'

29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

31He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."

33He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough."

34Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. 35So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:
"I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."[c]

36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."

37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

44"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.

45"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. 46When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.

47"Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

51"Have you understood all these things?" Jesus asked.
"Yes," they replied.

52He said to them, "Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old."

Source:
www.ibsstl.org...

I was quite distraught by what you said because in all honestly I hope that is not the way heaven works if it does exist. So I opened the Bible to "where it wanted to open up to" and go figure that text was just about where my finger landed if not exactly. "Strange coincidence." Actually about the fifth such one in a row when I have opened the Christian Bible with a similar mindset. (not to say it will ever happen again but that it is very notable) Personally I interpret that text to mean heaven is not exactly about eternal bliss and hell is not exactly about eternal punishment, but rather heaven and hell are about two conflicting sides.

[edit on 22-1-2009 by truthquest]

reply to post by saint4God


I would really like to know here how the lack of answers exactly leads to suicidal depression ???

It seems to me that If you don't believe in yourself, you'll prove yourself right as well

First of all, impossibility itself is impossible with the exception of nothingness itself.

Moving on, I would encourage you (OP), to research in very open mindedness what it is you are seeking to understand for you are weighing in a lot of information and forming a decision on something without any basis to compare it to. That is only possible to form a correct concept of what Heaven is if you are given that knowledge in the first place. A good analogy is that of a blind man leading a blind man.

Without raising questions of the validity of the source, the bible mentions that the end game is that the Heavens come to the earth, not that we spend eternity in the spiritual realms.

For matters concerning how it is possible for two individuals who disagree to be in heaven at the same time without conflict, one needs only to study the architecture of computer networks (and even internet forums to a lesser degree) to understand the way information can be both subjective and objective without conflicting with multiple users or even those who would be the authors of writing the source codes. Everyone knows that if a computer follows a set of code that is debugged correctly it can exist in space time indefinitely and recalled over and over without loss or error. Think of the spiritual realms as the word of God in consciousness and energy and you'll begin to understand how the Heaven's can exist without any conflict. It will have one source code and no limitations on interactivity due to time constraints.

reply to post by saint4God


Fear not for my health, depression is far from my mind, I actually find it kind of nice to know that i am what i am, isn't that in fact the name god used for himself on the mountain (I listen to a lot of Temple Talk on Israel National News) 'i am that i am' indeed, was not this god saying to us I am the truth of existence?

That is how most people see it, the phrase mosses uses when he returns from the hills is saying to us 'i am that i am' or i am just as i seem, was moses not thinking not of a deity style god but of universal truth?

In the world that i live on i exist, i think therefor i am - in this world i know i exist - this is what i am, two plus two equals four - this is always true. Within my existence any time i have two items in each hand i will have four items over all -this is my existence. Was not moses looking at this universal truth, this vast world of truth invisible in the metaphysical sky - maths is truth, logic is truth, two plus two always makes four that is truth, that is what it is, god is truth, i am what i am.

Moses understood this, this connection to universal truth is what gave moses power over the people, he knew that rules dictated how all things happen, i am what i am, i am the rules which exist, i am the truth. The clergy discovered that people needed to be guided though the complex world by people who understood the rules, understood i that i am, wise men and mystics who could read this magical force and predict te future held great power.

Over the years the truth become hidden, it worked better that way, the clergy gained power and used their understanding of how the world worked to make sure the world always worked the way they wanted it too. The people high up in religion don't believe it, if the vatican really believed in god wouldn't they dress in sack cloth and wash the feet of the poor? wouldn't they give their gold to the poor and surely there wouldn't have been so many bad popes? They just want you to keep them in power, keep them earning and keep them happy so they can enjoy the earthly life.

I don't have this threat hanging over me that my soul will be dammed in eternity, i don't have to worry that i'm not pleasing a god who keeps hidden from me - i am free to enjoy this world, to make the most of my life and try to understand the truth that is.

reply to post by truthquest


I feel quiet bad now, i didn't mean to take away anything which makes you feel good - i think that it's impossible for someone's life to exist outside of our mindset but that doesn't mean i think life is meaningless, or death empty - the things we do in our life effect the whole of humanity in one way or another, if everyone is good to each other and the whole world vibrates with positive actions then only good things will come, the world will turn into heaven - all our hopes and dreams for the future will be made real and we (people made up of our actions, etc) will enjoy the world.

I see the bible as a wise book, with whole sections written / edited by evil men, which holds the basic universal truth of the world, though much of it is wrong or silly or immoral it does all have a certain wisdom and i almost believe that the answer to any question can be found in the bible (answered both ways) -american am radio has proved that too me the section you provided is interesting, it states that heaven is the best of the best, best of all possible worlds - this is surely where we will end up if everyone is good to each other? The 'spirit' of us that gets to enjoy it, surely that is our spirit living inside our great grand children - doesn't it talk about sins of the father payed for by the child, they are trying to tell us that community is the only way to create heaven on earth, does not god only give to those who help themselves?

i really think the magic place in the sky is a way of trying to explain what they saw when they looked into the future - we can either be good and try to do things the smart way and create heaven, or we can ruin the planet and turn it into hell.

Originally posted by 5thElement
I would really like to know here how the lack of answers exactly leads to suicidal depression ???

A good question. I'm not saying that others would feel the same I did, but my school of thought was oblivionist in nature, considering the following as a very real possibility:

1.) When people die, they cease to exist.

2.) When considering infinity, the 70 plus or minus years we have on this floating little rock in the middle of enormous space is insignificant. The number 1 when compared to infinity = 0 (although I didn't know calculus at the time, it applied very well once I learned of the principle). Therefore my life is meaningless and is best to end it now. That way I find out if there is anything beyond, and if nothing exists then no big loss.

Originally posted by 5thElement
It seems to me that If you don't believe in yourself, you'll prove yourself right as well

I believe in myself and my capabilities now, but I don't believe I can do things I can't also. My concern wasn't about this life, but what happens after it.


[edit on 22-1-2009 by saint4God]

I dont know why people worry so much about whether or not there is a heaven or hell. Worse case scenario there is nothing so you best not waste the short time you do have. Make the most of it. Dont be an asshole.

Best case scenario, there is an afterlife. Dont waste your life here and get tossed to the less desirable place. Dont be an asshole.

It's pretty simple really. Dont be an asshole.

Everything else as far as life after death and god(s) and what not is completely moot when you boil it down to the root of it. Dont be an asshole. It just so happens that blowing yourself up on a bus or sniping an OBGYN are pretty asshole things to do.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


i gave you a star because that's exactly how i feel - you don't need a heaven to make you do good things, they have their own reward. The only reason you need a heaven is to control the masses.

Sometimes our thoughts of heaven or hell, or nothing or whatever, are oftentimes based on one specific religious teaching. There are almost as many different views on this as there are people. Sometimes even within specific religions people interpret things differently. Many people think that Christianity is the one true religion; the only way. So that means the rest of the world population, of all times, will go to "hell?" Probably other religions think the same about all "other" religions.

I just hate to think that an all-loving God would allow such unimaginable, eternal suffering to so many people that mean well.

I believe that you and your family and friends will ultimately end up in the same place.

Only love is real.

Peace.