Heaven is impossible, they lied to you.

Natureboy, I feel compelled to answer your thoughts about heaven. Here's what I believe:

I think that I am not able to presume anything about God, his "kingdom", his likes and dislikes, anything at all.

We are on a need to know basis with God, and all we need to know is what is written the the "holy" scriptures and the like. We can pray and ask for englightenment. We can go to psychics and ask them what awaits us. But honestly, we don't need to know, do we?

Just live your life Natureboy. Live it fully and happily, without regret.

On a side note, I do believe in heaven. I just don't know what's going to be there or who will be there with me. I hope to see my family and friends who have past. I also hope to see a few pets who have gone before me whom I miss so badly and love so greatly. I also hope to have peace there in my eternal rest. And knowledge.

Who knows? Maybe I'll see you there too.

That's asking a lot, isn't it?

reply to post by lel1111


That's a more sensible view, it makes sense and is possible - it also lacks the blunt edge of control. there is no 'obey us or else' threat enclosed.

If you #have# to believe in Heaven then the selective heaven St Peter sits at the gate of is a terrible choice, believe in a more open communal heaven like this.

If god knows all and created us as man then he didn't make any mistakes, gay people aren't broken and sun worshippers add to the beauty of the world - we will enjoy his creation as he intended then all move on to happy ending, obeying the clergy is not required for entry into the ever after.

Originally posted by uplander
That's asking a lot, isn't it?

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God." - Mark 10:27

This applies to the title of the thread as well.

reply to post by uplander


Hey, I love alexandrite. How it changes color! Red and Green.
We used to have some jewelry and loose stones.

The truth will set you free. There is no Hell in the sense everyone thinks, and in the end All will be saved to enjoy Heaven. Now this makes some think they need not obey God. But itz like your mom and dad. Even if they said no u love them and had it in mind while disobeying. Taking advantage is considered strong but that is not how we are to live and unknown judgement though by predictable parents, is still due. Not for me to explain now but look up mistranslations in bible and whatnot. Also on the subject I suggest Searching on google tentmaker ministry. And for a specific article look up eternal death, annhilation, salvation or sumthin, Along those lines. As for me. I know I've had many lifestyles in my short young life. And the war in my mind and spirit has flipped. I KNOW evil firsthand. Without research I had already began to plan my rise to power and NWO plot. When I researched I found out I was no different from the same forces. I despised. Bla bla. Recently things happened that I regarded as simple signs. But I wasn't sure so I asked for more. I started to know all of Manz liez and like many I started exploring more atheist/agnostic/deist views. Den as soon as dat happened next day randomly someone asks me my views and I answered so unsure of myself. Nonetheless I hit a point where my old 'slave to mind' was dead. I was dead (in spirit) I slept was sluggish and WANTED to die and just rot in ground. I thought perpetual sleep was best. But nonetheless The truth kept callin. I kept answerin. I saw everything from every angle. I saw why some are quick to have faith and some are not. Itz all perspective. But go around the block of truths and light is shown. Now I know the truth. Or at least da part of truth that really counts my spirit is betta den eva. I am non-judgemental, humble, and my stress and boredoms are relieved. And now I try and spread da feelin. I releazied love and forgiveness are shrugged as unreal even if subconciously. No one wantz to forgive da man dat raped their daughter. But if one were able to forgive and CORRECT the corrected can spread. People caught up in many things and too proud if human intellect or natural things miss the mark. If mankind is diseased then to fix we have to CURE(vaccinate) or purify, because QUARANTINING will just affirm that we think of each other as what we try to overcome being-mere ANIMALS abiding by EVERY DOG FOR HIMSELF. I don't know if I said everything not properly representing what I have learned But it is simply food for thought so few flaws here are meaningless because when you choose to seek in this area of knowledge it will make sense (hopefully). But this Is all a truncated appetizer of what my new life wantz to share. [email protected]

I think the thread would be better titled, "I cannot understand how heaven can possibly be perfect because of who I am and who I know". Well, I'm with ya there. I also don't know how my car works exactly, but it gets me to work everyday. I don't know how the earth is able to sustain a viable ecosystem for everyone on the planet at once over thousands/millions of years, but I breathe the air. It's like going into surgery. I don't know very many who understand all the technical details about what the doctor is going to do, how s/he does it, and certainly we're not awake when s/he does, but when the procedure is over, our trust is fulfilled that s/he did the right thing and it made us better. The cool thing about God, is by definition of God, He's got the answer...all we have to do is accept that He does, what He did for us, and then when we get there we can ask.


[edit on 22-1-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


No, its not that i don't know the exact mechanics of Heaven - it's that i know its a paradox - that is to say it's impossible.

I'm talking standard model heaven and hell, the heaven I got promised and the person that i am can not exist. Maybe you don't like your friends as much as i like mine, in that case enjoy heaven -hope i don't bring you down by sitting in the corner and moaning at the injustice of it all.

My point is the heaven they tell yo about to make you obey them is a lie, if you abort a baby you don't go to hell, if you don't put enough in the collection plate god won't send you to a place of pain and toil.

We shouldn't give evil people who make up lies to control people the power to run our lives, we must stop them from limiting science and causing so many wars in the world - these evil corrupt people are the ones stopping us having heaven on earth.

You may want to have listen to Alex Collier , I dont know if I can belive all of what he says but it has the feel of truth. Its very interesting to say the least.


video.google.com...

Originally posted by NatureBoy
reply to post by truthquest

 

I feel quiet bad now, i didn't mean to take away anything which makes you feel good - i think that it's impossible for someone's life to exist outside of our mindset but that doesn't mean i think life is meaningless, or death empty - the things we do in our life effect the whole of humanity in one way or another, if everyone is good to each other and the whole world vibrates with positive actions then only good things will come, the world will turn into heaven - all our hopes and dreams for the future will be made real and we (people made up of our actions, etc) will enjoy the world.

I see the bible as a wise book, with whole sections written / edited by evil men, which holds the basic universal truth of the world, though much of it is wrong or silly or immoral it does all have a certain wisdom and i almost believe that the answer to any question can be found in the bible (answered both ways) -american am radio has proved that too me

the section you provided is interesting, it states that heaven is the best of the best, best of all possible worlds - this is surely where we will end up if everyone is good to each other? The 'spirit' of us that gets to enjoy it, surely that is our spirit living inside our great grand children - doesn't it talk about sins of the father payed for by the child, they are trying to tell us that community is the only way to create heaven on earth, does not god only give to those who help themselves?

i really think the magic place in the sky is a way of trying to explain what they saw when they looked into the future - we can either be good and try to do things the smart way and create heaven, or we can ruin the planet and turn it into hell.

Don't feel bad... it is coming time now for the tough questions to be asked and answers to be demanded. Christians (and all of us) need to make their positions like the rock they are supposed to be able to soundly stand on and with all the doom and gloom out there maybe now is the time to get this stuff fully hashed out so when things get truly tough people will have something solid to stand on.

At this point I agree that the Bible is a book of great wisdom that also says some things that are as you put it seem overly threatening, silly, or wrong. But at the same time because other people in my family so treasure that book as something mystical/magical/above human error I want to as well. But I don't yet. And I think there are millions of people in my position whether or not they realize it or know how to (or have the courage to) articulate that point.

reply to post by Clearskies


Sorry about my post.
I thought I was U2U'ing that person!

Ok so I have some input onto this thread. I personally do not buy into the whole Christian/Catholic whatever it may be mumbo-jumbo. Simply put, the Bible was written by MAN. It was written through people who had visions and heard voices. Well lets see, today we call these people crazy and throw them into an asylum. Before we do that however, we discredit them because there is already a God that people believe in and they cant be getting anything from this other God(s). Therefore they have to be a fake and just trying to get money, we catagorize these people and their followers as cults. Seems kinda funny to me. Wouldnt you say that Christianity was once a cult that seems to have grown into a world-wide religion. Basically, your basing your faith off of crazy people who heard voices and saw visions and decided to write these down. All that shows me is that your religion was able to overtake the others and become what it is today. How many times has blood been spilt over the beliefs of Christianity. Just to name a few : The Crusades, killed people because they didnt believe in the Christian beliefs, Salem Witch Trials, killed people because they were suspected of witchcraft, when in reality many of those killed were not practicers of magic at all. Hmmm, leads me to believe that your religion is not all its cracked up to be... Whats that one commandment say, Thou shalt not kill. OOPS. Looks like more people have been killed in the name of this religion then should have been. Christianity is nothing but a bunch of hypocracy. You bend and twist the religion to fit the needs of your time. Thou shall not kill unless.... Yea ok. Well needless to say. If your religion is correct then why the hell follow it in the first place. Only 144000 people will be allowed into heaven according to the book of revelations. Lets see, approximately 6 billion people on Earth, no telling how many will be here when apocalypse happens, no telling how many of the presumed 60 billion people who have lived on the Earth are already in heaven. Lets just do a calculation based on Earth today and the assumption that no one has made it to heaven. 6 billion people on Earth now subtract 144000 people going to heaven. That leaves us with approximately5,999,856,000 people going to hell if this apocalypse was to happen right now. Some god you people worship. You really believe you are going to be in that 144000, yea ok. Fat chance, I am going to live my life how I want and if I sin so be it. I wont be going to heaven anyways. Just look at the statics of it, highly unlikely that your going, so live you life how you want and have some fun because once your dead you will be in hell and have a crappy eternity.

Originally posted by NatureBoy
...No, its not that i don't know the exact mechanics of Heaven - it's that i know its a paradox - that is to say it's impossible. ...

You "know" it is a paradox? How can you "know" anything when your arguments are so full of logical holes that you could fly the good year blimp through them? It would be more truthful if you were to say that you HOPE it's impossible.

You stated something along the lines of "How could I enjoy heaven if there are going to be people in Hell who I know?". Here's one answer for you (and it may not even be the BEST answer, but at least it is logically consistent).

What if your mind becomes unclouded with biases, and you can see everyone's judgment just as God as seen? At that point, you would KNOW that the person in question absolutely deserved Hell. You see? "Paradox" solved.

I would like to just say that no one goes to heaven because they are good. They go to heaven because their sin is forgiven and they have been "saved". Saved means that the sentence of death has been removed from them, and that is the only reason. This is the whole reason Jesus was crucified, to die for us in our place. One poster said heaven and hell were like two side in a battle or struggle, and this is true. The only reason anyone would ever end up "thrown away" or cast into hell is because they could not say yes to Jesus for what He did for them. In the end it's all about Jesus. Do you want to go to heaven, accept what Jesus did for you. Do you want to go to hell..? reject it. When you stand before God, Jesus will either say "I know you.." or He will say " I never knew you.." But we get to choose what He will say right now, right here. It may be that someone reading this is at that point in their life right now. So I would like to invite you to say yes today to Jesus and go to heaven. That's all it takes. If you believe... Jesus said "all things are possible if you believe.." It's not about being good, it's about being forgiven.

reply to post by sir_chancealot


Interesting point, there are a few very good reasons my argument has huge logical holes in...

If you read through a few of the answers I've been given you'll notice that no one has the same view of what heaven is, i intended only to oppose the heaven offered by the Christian faith but even then there are so many different versions of heaven among the different denominations that i had to be vauge and cover all bases. Dante's inferno is not the same as Virgil's version oh the underworld -how many different versions are blasted out from pulpits across the world? No one even has the same idea about weather the soul is a single unit or a reflection of god or any number of crazy ideas - it's almost as if people just say whatever sounds good for the current argument.

My argument is simply made up of logically deduceable facts, if my soul changes i change -simple as, if the way i process data is changed then what is currently ME stops existing and something else takes my place.

You suggest that i'm suddenly going to see that my friend who has always been good to me, has seen me though many hard times and been dear to me right up till the lava and brimstone - deserves an eternity of torment, and i'm going to just get on with my enjoyment of heaven? You don't think such a radical shift of my thought process would change who i am? It would take a lot, an awful lot to change my mind - you thiink god is just going to white wash my logical brain and all my emotions so i agree with him?

why doesn't he just do that now? end the charade of free will, if in the end i get either brainwashed or eternal damnation what's the point?

The problem really is that everyone has their own answers to the heaven questions, as the poster mentioned above 144,000 people only according to some peoples bibles - if i remember right no women who have ever had sex or borne child are admitted so thats my mum out of the picture, men have to have jumped through certain hoops since birth, etc and stayed holy - you're trying to tell me that i might get to heaven and understand why my mother is getting tortured for eternity? Suddenly i'll see that she really does deserve it for bringing me onto the planet -if i had tried to focus on a detailed version of a biblical heaven people would be tellimg me i had it all wrong, but jesus said this, paul said that...

If you could provide a working model for heaven/hell and the selection process involved i would love to hear it, who do i get to hang out with? angels i hear don't have souls but live in heaven -what the difference between a dead me and an angel with no soul? i hear that from heaven i can see hell and mock the sinners, if i mock them too hard and break some commandments might i get moved down?

Also while you're here, what's the point of hell? When we send a criminal to prison (in civilized countries) the main aim is rehabilitation - creating someone, giving them unclear life objectives then punishing them for eternity if they don't win -what does this achieve?

Think about it and be honest, the whole heaven hell system makes no sense as an actual system for a glorious god to create and run - however as a quick easy answer to some tough questions the clergy must have faced such as what happens when we die, why should i obey you, etc it makes perfect sense.

reply to post by Fromabove


but doesn't that sound... er, a little crazy? We only get to heaven if jesus knows us, god created us and we're all his children but he will punish us forever unless we know his son?

The fact is desperate clergy men who want to trick you into giving them money and power have made up a magic place you go as a reward for serving them. Maybe Jesus said repeatedly that you don't need a clergy to have a church and you just need to open your heart to the lord, etc, etc however if you accept the lord from the bible you accept the bible, this means you obey the laws of god, the laws of god are created to give the powerhungry control over you and thus you find yourself prostrate before the clergy.

Also if just knowing jesus is enough then that means people who have spent their life loving the Jman get in right? Even say... tomas de torquemada? (look him up, somewhere better than catholicWiki) who murdered and tortured hundreds of jews, heathens and muslims as the first Inquisitor General of Spain - he was a good christian, honest and just in many ways, however he was also a barbarous thug by todays standard - what will happen to him when those trumpets sound? he #knew# jesus that's for sure, he tried to please god -by your logic he gets in to the good place while all my ancestors who lived before Christianity reached these shores automatically go to hell?

for that matter all native americans before what? say 1800? automatically go to hell because god only told a small section of the world about it - mean while a few hundred miles away Homer was writing about similar but totally different things, to the east similar but again totally different stories were doing the rounds -why wouldn't god of told everyone? why do you think he picked a small group of violent savages from a barren coastal strip get the right answer while everyone else on the planet invents some nonsense for themselves?

Originally posted by NatureBoy
Heaven is an impossible concept and religion has been covering up the lie with faulty logic and by ignoring the real issues.

Here it is, When i was born i was but a babe empty headed and illogical. I grew and learnt about the world from those i was close to, from my mother i picked up kindness and empathy from my father cynicism and pragmatism. I merged these with my own thoughts and a thousand outside influences and became a person of my own, i learnt how to think, how to question and how to discover stuff for myself but i also learnt how to get along with people, people taught me things and i developed into a man. Those friends which have taught me so much have made me who i am and are part of my very being -and i am part of theirs.

When i die and lay in the ground till the end of time my friends may go on living a while but eventually we'll all end up in gods hall awaiting eternal justice....

God will pick out some people who have been good (440,000 or something wasn't it? but lets assume thats nonsense for now and that i or someone i know has a chance of being picked) and some who have been bad, What if I alone among my friends have been holy enough to get upstairs, heaven would suck. Yeah i'ld make loads of new friends 'oh hi tomas de torquemada good to see you' but i couldn't enjoy heaven without my friends, knowing they're suffering in hell i couldn't go and peer over and laugh like I'm supposed too.

So heaven could only exist for me with my friends, i won't even get into the issue of what happens if someone who likes me wants me to be in their heaven area but i don't like them -another impossible paradox. If you've ever seen the thing where they prove that everyone in the world can be linked via 7people you'll know that this means if you could get your mates into heaven everyone in history will thus automatically be let into heaven.

One of the many theological answers to this paradox is that when you rise to heaven it's your soul not your earth form which goes, well my entire being is made up of my life experience -i remember my mother teaching me how to understand why people act when i predict someones actions, i can feel the long line of working class people in my family history as i do a hard days graft, not a spiritual power but by way of my upbringing - my grandmother had been brought up to do things herself, my father grew up learning how to fix his own cars and i have no aversion to greasy hands or sore muscles -I am the product of my upbringing. That doesn't leave a tangible part of my awareness left to enjoy heaven, and i was promised i'd enjoy it.

You can't take away the bit of me that loves my friends and family, you can't bring all my family to heaven and i can't enjoy heaven without them.

So, the very concept of eternal bliss is impossible for me to ever win -I might as well not even try, really i better have as much fun this life as possible while still trying to make sure what's left of me (i.e. my imprint in the future generations) is as positive as possible. Then i can enjoy the silent sleep of death.

OK I'm getting kind of tired of telling people this so last time I ever mention it again.

I've died twice the first time was a doozy. No way I should be alive right now. You assume you came into existence when you were born on earth. Well you will either be thoroughly disappointed, or exhilarated when it happens to you.

You're thinking of the Jehovahs witnesses/Latter day saints and the mormons.

Cool thought, but the only problem is heaven is nothing but a undefineable word.

I've covered the "nothing paradox" which is impossible to imagine, no more anything, zero, never was a before and never is a after.

I'm 99.9% sure that is impossible. Why I say that is specifically the Pam Reynolds case, a NDE where she repeated exactly what had happened to the team that removed a brain anneurism. It was impossible for her to hear anything, even if she was somewhat concious during the surgeory, because there was little head phones making a consistant clicking noise to assure the team there was no more activity in her brain. She was clinically dead, injected with sodium potassiate I believe, which is what they use to kill prisoners on death row. So, when she came out of it all, she literally stunned the neurologist and surgeons with precision details of the whole occurance, and it made Discovery channel, National Geographic and History. When I viewed that it virtually eliminated the nothing paradox from my skull, especially after I did extensive research to proove it was a hoax, and I came up with nothing.

So, I don't know if I'd call life after death heaven or hell, but maybe just a place where our neurological activity heads to once the body can't harness it anymore. After all, all our brain is is a bunch of neurons fireing off every instance time is existing.

That's my two cents.

reply to post by Darthorious


You can say anything, you aren't convincing anyone. Just because you've experienced something that someone hasn't, doesn't mean they're going to believe you... So I'd just give up if you don't have data to support your claims.

I do believe you though.

reply to post by Revolution-2012


interesting, however as i say in my op -i am a product of my environment, i learned who i am by being alive, meeting people and sharing experiences -without these i have absolutely nothing beside autonomic reflex actions.

Before i was born I didn't exist, my mother and father had the shared weight of billions of years of biological evolution and thousands of years of human endevor which let them create me, a new human ready to be filled with life. That life was the combined effect everything which had happened before, the effect of JFK, Shakespear, Saul of Tarsis, Nebacanezar right back to which ever cave man first caried with him a burning ember,

If i die then that part of me which is able to understand the world is unable to function, the vast webs of logic gates which store my thought processes and memories decay and my short spell on the earth is over, hopefully if i've had children they will carry on the race and carry the torch of inquisitiveness and self awareness forward and onto enlightenment. OR more likely the beautiful spark of life which we are will be snuffed out in a terrible global destruction, thermo nuclear war or some such.

But as you say life can't just start out of nothing and then go into nothing, probably true. Plato talks of things having three forms, before a real chair is made the maker imagines it and before he imagined it the possibility of the chair existed. To make a chair's phsical form you picture an ideal chair, this will differ from other peoples chairs but they are all 'chairs' and then you hue it out of wood, before anyone decided to try and make a chair the perfect highest form of a chair, that is simply something to sit on, has always existed.

One possible thing is a person can be self aware, this is easy to prove 'i think therefore i am' we are thinking, it is possible. -the possibility that someone can be aware of their own existence has always existed, thus with all the things going on in the universe, entropy, chaos and the like, at some point in time people are bound to exist -of course we only know when we do exist, we only know the existence we have.

At some point people will have other forms, self awareness won't only happen once but it's bound to happen again and again in a world in which logic exists.

What created logic? that's an interesting question, maybe it's what HAS to exist in all time - if you have nothing maybe the only thing it really holds is a single bit of data 'is there anything here?=no' that no holds the possibility of another answer, from that other answer all things possible can be devised. Didn't they say the universe was a 3dhologram? maybe it's a hologram of logical probability's.

sorry if thats a little hard to follow its late [early] and i need my bed.

oh and if i was you i wouldn't put too much stock in that story you heard, sounds like baseless bible propaghanda to me (and i've seen my fair share) - i don't base important things on unconfirmed hearsay because i've seen too many people make it up -check out the 'promise keepers' for some classic examples of lieing christians. Oh and that didn't sound like how neurosurgeons operate to me, if you want to provide a link to sources i'll debunk it properly though

I agree with you that the traditional, literal sense of heaven is impossible. There are too many logical fallacies for it to exist. But it could exist in some other form.
I like the idea of the struggle between sides, in that respect I view it as being truly morally upright in order to win the war of the self. I think doing bad deeds creates a temporary heaven for yourself, but being selfless is eternal. In the end, anyways.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
I dont know why people worry so much about whether or not there is a heaven or hell. Worse case scenario there is nothing so you best not waste the short time you do have. Make the most of it. Dont be an asshole.

Best case scenario, there is an afterlife. Dont waste your life here and get tossed to the less desirable place. Dont be an asshole.

It's pretty simple really. Dont be an asshole.

Everything else as far as life after death and god(s) and what not is completely moot when you boil it down to the root of it. Dont be an asshole. It just so happens that blowing yourself up on a bus or sniping an OBGYN are pretty asshole things to do.

Haha I thought that was spot on! The overall moral is: don't argue over things that may or may not exist and may not even exist as you envision them. When we all come together, that is heaven. The answer is so simple: love one another! We are all the same!

Originally posted by lel1111
Sometimes our thoughts of heaven or hell, or nothing or whatever, are oftentimes based on one specific religious teaching. There are almost as many different views on this as there are people. Sometimes even within specific religions people interpret things differently. Many people think that Christianity is the one true religion; the only way. So that means the rest of the world population, of all times, will go to "hell?" Probably other religions think the same about all "other" religions.

I just hate to think that an all-loving God would allow such unimaginable, eternal suffering to so many people that mean well.

Only love is real.

The only solution is that we are all wrong! And in that case why worry? If you believe only 144,000 people will be saved, why worry? That's a God I dont want to mess with. If you believe he will judge you on your character, not belief in him, why worry? Don't be an asshole! If after life is nil, enjoy the moments of now, if you only worry about your hotel having no vacancy, your whole road trip will be ruined!