Operation : Expose A Mason Website ** Opinions **

Why do some people confuse "privacy" with "secrecy"? Why is there a belief that masonic rituals, generally kept "private" should be so bad? Why do some perceive of a "Satanic" connection although clearly, this is predicated on the absolute truth of the Bible. Does every mention of "Light" have to pertain to "Lucifer" and by (invalid) inference, to "Satan".

This is a nonsense.

In this day and age, there may be a hint of absurdity about some of the rituals, however, they represents a tradition of a "role play" to effect common lessons and understanding. What is so bad about that?

This mechanism is in use everyday! The marriage ritual is a descendant and evolution of the contract of ownership by a man of a woman - does that mean it holds no place in modern life? Well, that is a matter of opinion and in a free society, "opinions" are not forced on everybody to the detriment of those that believe the opposite - thankfully. In fact, when we see this happening most of use consider it a restriction of personal freedoms.

The Catholic confessional is "secret", perhaps we should ignore that and publish all confessions on the web? If people are confessing then they must have something to hide from the rest of us? Perhaps the should be arrested "just in case" they are hiding something else too?

I think not.

Ever since "society" has existed there has been a minority that would act against the common will, even take actions to harm and undermine others. Any club or group will have "bad seeds" in it, however, some people seem to think that Masonry engenders such behaviour by virtue of the privacy of the rituals.

Such privacy can exist outside of the scope of Masonry - Discussions of any criminal enterprise generally take place in private. Perhaps we should outlaw "privacy"?

What is so wrong with secrecy? Nothing per se, only when the enterprise kept secret is detrimental to so many people. There is nothing - nothing - to suggest that Freemasonry as an entity in its own right predisposes people to engage in nefarious activities. Quite the opposite if the amount of charitable work and funding they undertake is taken into account.

Surely there are badly disposed organisations that hide behind a front of Freemasonry, just as there are other organisations that cheat and steal from us in the name if "insurance" or "banking" - however - the belief that these activities are supported and enabled by the infrastructure of Freemasonry is a dogmatic reaction with no foundation in fact.

People's time would be better spent watching out for real criminals, wanted by the law enforcement agencies, then perhaps they can consider themselves helpful to society just as Freemasons can rightly judge their own organisation.






Why so?

Originally posted by jpvskyfreak
Mr. RuneSpider


For all we know you could be involved in illicit activity that is deemed unsafe to the general public? I am not taking this view personally but in the eye's of the law it could be conceived that way. Same staunch viewpoint that my friend has taken.

All I can say is, "wow". It sounds like the Patriot Act had someone from Hong Kong help write it. Maybe you should come over to the states and visit a Shriner's Hospital for Children and witness first hand all the evil.

Originally posted by jpvskyfreak
You're missing the point here to ... I am expressing the interests of a friend who has a website idea ..... I really could not be buggered wasting my own time on such a pass time.

With all due respect, I think you're not attributing rational thought to the point.

There is no evidence that those entering masonic halls for general meetings and every-day events are associated with terrible deeds. In fact, the overwhelming evidence suggests that these ordinary members of this society join with an intent to do good.

We who would speculate on scandals and conspiracies have a responsibility to focus, as much as we can, on facts -- or at the least, logical derivatives of observed patterns. That each and every person entering a building where masons meet is engaged in nefarious deeds is not a logical derivative of that observed pattern.

This is not to say that there are no secret groups of masons meeting to plot terrible things, only that most likely are not.

The effort represented by your friend's web site project will not yield data that will be valuable to conspiracy research. Instead, the results will more likely be damaging to "conspiracy theorists" as a group.

[edit on 19-1-2009 by mister.old.school]

Speaking for my own state - all of our lodge rolls are open for public inspection.

There's no need to hang out and act like some cloak and dagger paparazzo.

Go and visit a lodge. Call and ask to talk to members. Take a tour. Ask hard questions.

Masons have nothing to hide. People misconstrue our promise to keep secrets as conspiratorial, but it's not. Masonry no longer has any secrets. All of our rituals and ceremonies are available on the web.

The oath we take is an exercise in morals and ethics. I promise to hold and keep my brother's secrets as my own. This is to establish trust and openness so that brothers may work together knowing they can be completely open and honest with each other.

The oath works the same way that any healthcare provider who takes an Hippocratic oath. We swear to never reveal what we are told in trust, and to never reveal without permission what we observe in people's homes. In fact legislation like HIPAA makes it ILLEGAL to reveal any information we may encounter while treating a patient.

Masonry is no different.

So while you guys are hanging out like creepy lechers in your stupid t-shirts and hiding in the bushes taking photos the real villains of the world are out there hurting our families and our way of life.

Why don't you do some good for society and go to your local sex offender website, download some names and addresses and follow these people around.

While you are sitting at your local lodge taking stupid photos, these pervs are sitting at the library around our children.

Use your head.

Originally posted by emsed1
Masonry is no different.

Indeed.

If I may be so bold as to extend that thought for the benefit of narrow minded individuals who seem unable to come to terms with their own denial.

It would be valid to say --
"Masonry is no different than Christianity."
"Masonry is no different than Islam."
"Masonry is no different than Rotary Club."
"Masonry is no different than VFW posts."
"Masonry is no different than a high school chess club."
"Masonry is no different than __________."

In all comparative cases, there has undoubtedly been varying degrees of corruption from time to time that ranges from temporary leadership on down to misguided groups of general members. Any organization of any type is subject to weaknesses of the human spirit.

There is a high probability that some masons are pedophiles -- this does not translate into masons are pedophiles.

There is a high probability that some corrupt politicians are/were masons -- this does not translate that masonry breeds corrupt leaders.

The anecdotal evidence that history is well-represented by corrupt Masons, perhaps as a result of the group's tendency for high-secrecy, is plentiful. But the same could easily be said of the Christian church and any number of similar groups that survive history. The fact that there are evil Christians does not mean the Christian faith is evil, just as corrupt persons connected to Freemasonry does not indicate the entire group is corrupt.

reply to post by mister.old.school


Indeed. People, by and large, continue to be human regardless of their affiliations. Masonry attempts to be a well regulated institution, but no such attempts can claim 100% success... there will always be those who slip through the cracks, or those who become corrupted by whatever sense of power or entitlement they may attain through elected office, be it on the local or Grand Lodge level.

We try to hold a higher standard but the actual words of such teachings are more along the lines of holding ourselves to that standard... not so much a "judge not lest ye be judged" as a "judge yourself and allow your brother to judge himself".

Originally posted by mister.old.school

Originally posted by emsed1
Masonry is no different.

Indeed.

If I may be so bold as to extend that thought for the benefit of narrow minded individuals who seem unable to come to terms with their own denial.

It would be valid to say --
"Masonry is no different than Christianity."

Incorrect. Freemasonry is not a religion. It's an adjunct to one's own personal religious beliefs only.

Originally posted by mister.old.school
"Masonry is no different than Islam."

Incorrect. See above for explanation.

Originally posted by mister.old.school
"Masonry is no different than Rotary Club."

Incorrect, although you're getting warner. Elements of Freemasonry's intents are similar.

Originally posted by mister.old.school
"Masonry is no different than VFW posts."

Incorrect. Getting cold again.

Originally posted by mister.old.school
"Masonry is no different than a high school chess club."

Incorrect. I don't recall my high school chess club talking about the G.K.O.T.U. (Grand King of the Universe). Grand Checkmate of the Universe perhaps. But I digress.

Originally posted by mister.old.school
"Masonry is no different than __________."

In all comparative cases, there has undoubtedly been varying degrees of corruption from time to time that ranges from temporary leadership on down to misguided groups of general members. Any organization of any type is subject to weaknesses of the human spirit.

Ooowhutttt? Where's Jon Stewart when you need him? Your chess club was a den of iniquity?

Originally posted by mister.old.school
There is a high probability that some masons are pedophiles -- this does not translate into masons are pedophiles.

Statistically, there's a possibility that there's unidentified paedophiles within the millions that range under the banners of Freemasonry. However, once identified either within Lodge or without, they're gone.

Originally posted by mister.old.school
There is a high probability that some corrupt politicians are/were masons -- this does not translate that masonry breeds corrupt leaders.

There's also a similarly high probability that they are/were southpaws. That does translate into pointing out a strawman argument.

Originally posted by mister.old.school
The anecdotal evidence that history is well-represented by corrupt Masons, perhaps as a result of the group's tendency for high-secrecy, is plentiful.

Anecdotal assertions are no less speculative today than they were 27 hours ago. Decades of smoke haven't produced the raging fire that all this speculation should've produced by now. Kinda calls into question the nature of the smoke.

Originally posted by mister.old.school
But the same could easily be said of the Christian church and any number of similar groups that survive history.

And has. However, even a broken watch is right twice a day. Individuals with an axe to grind about a particular group don't seem especially picky about the 'evidence' they use to bludgeon said group.

Originally posted by mister.old.school
The fact that there are evil Christians does not mean the Christian faith is evil, just as corrupt persons connected to Freemasonry does not indicate the entire group is corrupt.

But that last line is the sticking point because in particular forums, that common sense check is not applied and in fact, there seems to be a mindset that the exception PROVES the rule. Corrupt individuals membership in any particular group whether it's Freemasonry, Knights of Columbus, Rotary, et al is about as relevant as whether they have red hair or are partial to double-breasted suits.

It's the human mind's predilection of creating patterns and connections where they don't necessarily exist. It's the desire to believe the worst in people of a particular group for no other reason than they're part of that identifiable group. One hopes that society can recognise its predilections and rise above them.

reply to post by TheRandom1



You see nothing.

I see you lying.

The Three Great Principles

For many years Freemasons have followed three great principles:

Brotherly Love - Every true Freemason will show tolerance and respect for the opinions of others and behave with kindness and understanding to his fellow creatures.

Relief - Freemasons are taught to practise charity and to care, not only for their own, but also for the community as a whole, both by charitable giving, and by voluntary efforts and works as individuals.

Truth - Freemasons strive for truth, requiring high moral standards and aiming to achieve them in their own lives.


silly billy

Originally posted by JoshNorton
We try to hold a higher standard...

History is replete with examples of individuals who do the right thing at the right time, and similarly teeming with examples of groups whose ideals are subjugated for improper goals.

Smoke implies flames. Flames require fire. Fire demands fuel. "Fuel" (for the sake of this philosophical argument) is equal parts heat, combustibles, and oxygen. A secret society such as Masonry may only be one component of the "fuel" that results in the smoke we conspiracy theorists see in some scenarios... the other two are just as important.

Originally posted by mister.old.school
Smoke implies flames.

But flame implicated for decades (as per your earlier post) suggests very strongly that there never was flame and questionably even smoke to begin with. And the smoke likely had its origin somewhere other than where suggested.

Originally posted by mister.old.school

Originally posted by JoshNorton
We try to hold a higher standard...

History is replete with examples of individuals who do the right thing at the right time, and similarly teeming with examples of groups whose ideals are subjugated for improper goals.

Smoke implies flames. Flames require fire. Fire demands fuel. "Fuel" (for the sake of this philosophical argument) is equal parts heat, combustibles, and oxygen. A secret society such as Masonry may only be one component of the "fuel" that results in the smoke we conspiracy theorists see in some scenarios... the other two are just as important.

This is a good metaphor. Extending on the fire theme, though - If you remove any of the three things (oxygen, fuel, heat) then the fire does not occur.

I think the problem many conspiracy theorists make is that they see oxygen and fuel in every person or entity that is different than themselves and they provide the heat.

Unfortunately making a fire where none existed for the purposes of harm is called arson, not healthy skepticism.

Originally posted by mister.old.school

Originally posted by JoshNorton
We try to hold a higher standard...

History is replete with examples of individuals who do the right thing at the right time, and similarly teeming with examples of groups whose ideals are subjugated for improper goals.

Smoke implies flames. Flames require fire. Fire demands fuel. "Fuel" (for the sake of this philosophical argument) is equal parts heat, combustibles, and oxygen. A secret society such as Masonry may only be one component of the "fuel" that results in the smoke we conspiracy theorists see in some scenarios... the other two are just as important.

Forgive me if I'm not following you correctly.

First you say that Masonry is no different than any other group... it may have the occasional bad apple, but there's no reason for anyone to expect any higher percentage than any other group. And I agree.

But your latest statement isn't that there can likewise be good people within bad groups. That logic would hold. "Improper goals"... whose goals, exactly? Because once you move from the individual to the group, things change drastically. It's not like death to Americans a the goal of the Islamic faith. It may be the goal of individual extremists, and perhaps groups of likeminded people that exist within the Islamic faith...

set theory... venn diagrams... heck, even conservation of momentum...
the larger your group, the harder it is to change the direction of that group.

But I have to return to my usual stance: Even if a handful of men wielding some form of power (financial, political, social) who were Masons and were also actively using their power to "commit evil deeds", how is what they do reflective on Masonry as a whole? Or, for that matter, how could their goal, with relatively small backing, overcome the much more benign goals of greater Masonry, particularly without the majority either noticing or putting a stop to it?

[edit on 1/19/2009 by JoshNorton]

Originally posted by jpvskyfreak
You're missing the point here to ... I am expressing the interests of a friend who has a website idea ..... I really could not be buggered wasting my own time on such a pass time.

You took it upon yourself to want to have a go at me ... when it's not even my idea ... as I said before come round film me man I don't really care .... you're the one getting your new dress all dirty.

Pierre, for a person who says you "couldn't be buggered wasting your time on a matter as such", you seem to be making quite the exuberant argument concerning it. Whether the Masons have private meetings and what they discuss is simply their busines, they are not a public organization in any sort of way, therefore they have all the privacy rights that you enjoy. The same privacy rights that keep me from breaking into your house and hiding in your closet to make sure you and your wife aren't up to no good. If it is your friends idea, then let him do the dirty deed, it seems to me he is worse that the people (Masons) he is trying to investigate. I don't know about the laws in different parts of the world, but if he did that here, he would have to show just cause for his actions, otherwise he will be placing a call to post bail. I am not a Mason, and do not know what their cause is, nor do I care what it is. As a private organization they are within their rights to hold meetings at their place of gathering without telling you or anyone else what their meetings regard.

I understand you are likely getting into these heated discussions due to the barbed responses exchanged between you and several of the posters. Take it for this, as someone who has read many of your posts and ideas, and respect a lot of your views, you are not being logical on this argument. You and your friends energy and resources would be better spent on exposing real criminals, like pedophiles living in neighborhoods where the residents are unaware of who they are, etc. etc..

just my opinion, bro.....

[edit on 19-1-2009 by theQuest]

Good idea!! but a global one would be better still.

Again I see LowLevelMason and the regular misdirecting masons throwing in their disinformation....

I'd love to know this "public recruitment drive" since there is no such thing allowed.

In October/nov there was an ad in the paper for "honorable" men to join the team that met every 2nd Tuesday. I'll try to find the ad and scan it...

Of course someone also provides a video of recruiting, but that is wrong too...


Even their own members say that it is a SECRET society but, then you have the "mason conspiracy clean-up group" step in and try to shut down the valid points about masons, saying they are all wrong.

As to the OP, I believe that it would be a great idea for all to find out who in their area is amongst the masons and killing their neighbor... Not all are doing it... only the ones who have been forced down that road and are now being told to continue or things will come out.

What could come out that would make someone do something against his fellow human beings??? Some of this would happen. You'd have those masons being found out to be pedophiles or something along the lines. Then all other masons would bad mouth "the bad one" and say that they would report anyone they knew doing this.

Of course, this is probably true in their case, they do not know any pedos personally admitting it. But those in the group that are pedos themselves are aware of the group's protection being cast around them using their veil of SECRECY. You cannot talk about another mason being a mason.
Of course you will have some saying this isn't true... It's in the scottish crap writings.... so just because it doesn't say that it ISN'T in the american version doesn't mean it isn't....

As for the "Random1"s comment about the pastor saying it WAS a SECRET society, your pastor must have been lying, because masons are more credible than even pastors according to some...

A mason...
... it would seem to me that a Mason can technically be more trusted than those who have not made a similar vow.
...Since a Mason is sworn to Truth, there exists a deeper bond between Masons and truth than exists between those who have not taken such a vow.

Who would you believe???

I do believe that you would meet with some privacy issues in regards to posting the pictures though.... I can't understand why it would be a problem with the masons, since they have no problem with disturbing everyone else privacy... but then they call it SECRECY....

Mason's will tell you that what you ask for as PRIVACY is actually called SECRECY.... funny how these guys can't find the proper meaning in a dictionary. Of course it could mean they are trying to change the meaning.... they've already changed "Terrorist" to mean someone in the government....

If it works it'll be great when the SHTF and then the town can go knocking on doors and get rid of the trouble makers....


Rgds
S&F



[edit on 19-1-2009 by AllTiedTogether]

[edit on 19-1-2009 by AllTiedTogether]

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether
Of course it could mean they are trying to change the meaning.... they've already changed "Terrorist" to mean someone in the government....

Well, to be fair, George W. Bush IS a terrorist, but tomorrow that will be a moot point.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Zig Heil! Mein Fuehrer! I can valk!

We'll meet again.
Don't know where.
Don't know when.
ingeb.org...

Vera Lynn never sounded more ominous.

Does anybody here remember Vera Lynn?
Remember how she said that
We would meet again
Some sunny day?
Vera! Vera!
What has become of you?
Does anybody else in here
Feel the way I do?
www.pink-floyd-lyrics.com...

Perhaps this occasions a forget-me-not?

(Peter Sellers was a Freemason. To my knowledge, Eric Fletcher Waters was not... *shrug*)

[edit on 1/19/2009 by JoshNorton]

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


As for most of your comments there fitzy boy, you know they've been answered before by myself as well as many others... Most of the disinfo that you say I quote is stuff that other low level masons have stated in other threads dealing with criminal mason groups.

I won't respond to each of your comments as it appears your trying to derail this thread. Shouldn't do that....

I will say that although masons are not in the public light as you say, but they do hold SECRETS and those SECRETs are what is taking down us down right now. I think the people reading these threads are little smarter than you might think and are able to see what your group has done to our society...

That being said their pictures can at least be past around via emails to those that know of their doings within the community. That alone should keep their illegal activities down. Like the mason Cablevision Installer, who put the filter on my cable.

But you keep shoving your head into the sand there fitzy... take the helmet off before you stand up or you'll get sand in your eyes...

Rgds

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether
I will say that although masons are not in the public light as you say, but they do hold SECRETS and those SECRETs are what is taking down us down right now. I think the people reading these threads are little smarter than you might think and are able to see what your group has done to our society...

Like what, exactly? In what regard are y'all being taken down? In what regard are Masonic SECRETS responsible? What are you suggesting our group has done to your society?