Originally posted by LowLevelMason ...The person you [Rune Spider] responded to is the type of person that continues to believe in this 1-33 step pyramid myth. He thinks it starts at the bottom with the 1st degree and then continues exclusively with the SR degrees, which completely ignores the reality of the system.

If I'm the "person" mentioned above, you should have no difficulty highlighting the direct quotes in which the so-called "pyramid myth" has been propounded (or even necessarily supported) in any of my statements in this thread.

Oh, and the charge that my thoughts are "exclusively" in reference to the Symbolic and SR degrees ...completely ignores the reality WRT the thoughts I've actually expressed.

Look, not that the issue is of any real importance to me (Seriously, I couldn’t care less than I do about a group of grown men still playing clubhouse!), but to use your preferred verbiage, 33rd degree Masons have been singled-out and honored for their “outstanding” deeds -- a fact which comports perfectly well to my initial statement: “there are 33rd degree (and beyond?) Masons; then there’s everyone else.”

Bottom Line: it's my belief, based on the experiences of family members and friends, that money has played a larger role than it should in Freemasonry (not excluding its hierarchical structure). I could expound on this by appealing to "Annual Report[s] of the Board of Trustees and Officers" and other financial documents dating back to the fifties, but I don't feel especially compelled to do so, primarily because, as I've already said ...these matters just aren't very important to me.

[edit on 12/28/2008 by Icarus_Fallen]

Originally posted by Icarus_Fallen
If I'm the "person" mentioned above, you should have no difficulty highlighting the direct quotes in which the so-called "pyramid myth" has been propounded (or even necessarily supported) in any of my statements in this thread.

Are you just trying to pick a fight and troll me or what? The top of RuneSpiders post says "reply to post by myrddinzos." Is that you? No? Then I was not talking about you. Now, calm down. Its not worth getting enraged and hysterical over, especially when I wasn't even referring to your post.

Originally posted by Icarus_Fallen
Look, not that the issue is of any real importance to me (Seriously, I couldn’t care less than I do about a group of grown men still playing clubhouse!), but to use your preferred verbiage, 33rd degree Masons have been singled-out and honored for their “outstanding” deeds -- a fact which comports perfectly well to my initial statement: “there are 33rd degree (and beyond?) Masons; then there’s everyone else.”

For someone who cares so little, you are spending abundant time arguing about this. Once again, I will remind you the 33rd degree is a honor, much like a honorary academic degree. It does not separate them into a different group.

Originally posted by Icarus_Fallen
Bottom Line: it's my belief, based on the experiences of family members and friends, that money has played a larger role than it should in Freemasonry (not excluding its hierarchical structure). I could expound on this by appealing to "Annual Reports of the Board of Trustees and Officers" and other financial documents dating back to the fifties, but I don't feel especially compelled to do so, primarily because, as I've already said ...these matters just aren't very important to me.

Quite frankly unless you have specific evidence your belief means nothing. My experiences, since I am a SR mason and you are not, the fact that I have 3 of these 33rd degrees in my family, and that I've met countless over the years and talked to them as well as active inspector generals, that you are quite wrong.

As I said previously I have no doubt someone somewhere has bribed their way to the 33rd degree. However, given that it gives you nothing it doesn't make much sense to do so, and the vast bulk of all the 33rds I know live modest lives and would be incapable of paying large sums of money for a white hat.

He was referring to Myrddinzos, who my own last post was to.
The 33rd degree is part of the Scottis Rite, it's members are honored according to the auspices of the Scottish Rite.
If one were to work at it, someone could gain an invitation to the Knights Templar of the York Rite, or entrance to one of other side orders that are invitation or action based for entry.
Each Rite system to their own.

LLM,

…The top of RuneSpiders post says "reply to post by myrddinzos." Is that you? No? Then I was not talking about you. Now, calm down. Its not worth getting enraged and hysterical over, especially when I wasn't even referring to your post.

*lol*

Yes, clearly my rage and hysteria have gotten the better of me in this discussion. Rest assured though, I’ll try to catch myself before anymore irrational ranting flies from my fingertips.

Anyhoo, please note my use of the word “If”, especially since it was chosen in light of the very fact you’ve mentioned.

Of course, the main reason I suspected that you might be referring to me ...is the absence of any firm basis for your charges WRT anyone’s previous posts.

For someone who cares so little, you are spending abundant time arguing about this. […]

Not really; you should see my contributions, both in terms of time and the sheer volume of work, to certain Apologetics and Philosophy discussion boards, particularly with regard to matters about which I do actually care.

…Once again, I will remind you the 33rd degree is a honor, much like a honorary academic degree. It does not separate them into a different group.[…]

Excepting, of course, the group of persons so honored, namely (and exclusively) Masons of the 33rd degree?

But relax, Bro. I won’t be dumbing down your thread with anymore of my foolishness.

Peace.

[edit on 12/28/2008 by Icarus_Fallen]

1. matt groening is a 33rd degree freemason. 2. once again your a low lvl mason, new entry i believe, of course ur gonna be told what u r being told, w8 several years till u start to move up in degrees, then ur gonna find out very suddenly that some of the things you thought were true arent exactly the same as you thought originally. what u are told will keep changing and eventually when and if you ever get the 33rd degree only then will you find out the truth, and you will be blown away and find out exactly what im talkin about, my grandfather WAS a freemason when he was younger, and that very reason is y he left. just cuz ur inspired by what they are telling u doesnt mean it isnt bs. the nazis were inspired by hitler and that didnt stop them from murdering millions of jews. w8 5-10 years you will see what i mean. your new to the order, they dont truly trust you yet. u cant kno unless you are a 30-33rd degree. so have fun being brainwashed.

The Pet Goat eats everything.

Matt groening is a 33rd degree Freemason.

Couldn't find mention of his membership, have his lodge number handy?

once again your a low level mason, new entry i believe,

LowLevelMason chose his moniker as something of a joke, since many people make claims of Low levels, he's not a new member, and has had much more first hand experience than you have with Masons than you have, by my guess.
Myself, to be honest with you the masonry Lodges here meet during my karate class, and while I thoroughly enjoy learning about Masonry, karate's been a fascination for me since I first saw Power Rangers as a kid.
Also I'm more than a tad bit lazy it seems. ^^;

As for your argument then... how do you claim to know so much, when you seem to itneract with masonry so little?

Originally posted by myrddinzos
1. matt groening is a 33rd degree freemason. 2. once again your a low lvl mason, new entry i believe, of course ur gonna be told what u r being told, w8 several years till u start to move up in degrees, then ur gonna find out very suddenly that some of the things you thought were true arent exactly the same as you thought originally. what u are told will keep changing and eventually when and if you ever get the 33rd degree only then will you find out the truth, and you will be blown away and find out exactly what im talkin about, my grandfather WAS a freemason when he was younger, and that very reason is y he left. just cuz ur inspired by what they are telling u doesnt mean it isnt bs. the nazis were inspired by hitler and that didnt stop them from murdering millions of jews. w8 5-10 years you will see what i mean. your new to the order, they dont truly trust you yet. u cant kno unless you are a 30-33rd degree. so have fun being brainwashed.

1) This is not true. You can tell who is a mason by googling it and seeing how many legitimate (non-conspiracy theory) websites pop up listing the person as a mason. If 100% of the results are conspiracy sites, the person is not a mason. You'd think it wouldn't be that easy, but it is - really - works for me 100% of the time. Real masons are highly advertised by their own lodges, so the ones people just think are masons stand out.

2) RuneSpider isn't a low level mason. He's not even a mason. But he has again, and again, and again demonstrated a knowledge of freemasonry far beyond just about any non-mason I've seen. And he has already explained the joke behind my name.

Of course it goes without saying, but I keep having to say it to debunk this type of propaganda, that there are no low level masons. There are no high level masons. There are just masons. That is THE ENTIRE POINT of the fraternity.

3) Your knowledge of freemasonry is..well..beyond ignorant. I, and a whole bunch of other people, went from 1st degree to the 32nd degree in 6 months and a day. 6 months for 1-3, and 1 day for 4 - 32. Every SR mason is a 32nd degree in days.

4) I am always fascinated how people so blatantly demonstrate they have no idea about masonry but always have a relative who was the "high degree mason." Problem is you aren't telling the truth, since your grandfather would have found out about anything he didn't like within months, not years.

[edit on 28-12-2008 by LowLevelMason]

1. i never said he was a high degree mason.2. i never said runespider was a mason.3. u will see in time, the fact that u are a mason makes it ur job to try and debunk anything about the masons that may seem unlawful or against the face they are trying 2 show, i bet thats why your here in the first place to try and throw people off. and i never said how many years he was in the masons also back when he was in the masons their sytem was much different than it is today. there were not as many masons, i may have been a bit ill informed about 30-32 due to the change. and what about the 33rd degrees. hmmmmm. they have obviously changed their system of info since my grandfather was a mason.
i have heard of many more people leaving the masons. this argument will get nowhere because u are a mason. i believe in equality as well but im not gonna join some society to get it. also u cant deny that the cross of lorraine is on the masonic crest. and your also dsaying to deny everything that comes from conspiracy sites.....what the hell are u doing on this site then.

Originally posted by myrddinzos
1. i never said he was a high degree mason.2. i never said runespider was a mason.3. u will see in time, the fact that u are a mason makes it ur job to try and debunk anything about the masons that may seem unlawful or against the face they are trying 2 show, i bet thats why your here in the first place to try and throw people off. and i never said how many years he was in the masons also back when he was in the masons their sytem was much different than it is today. there were not as many masons, i may have been a bit ill informed about 30-32 due to the change. and what about the 33rd degrees. hmmmmm. they have obviously changed their system of info since my grandfather was a mason.
i have heard of many more people leaving the masons. this argument will get nowhere because u are a mason. i believe in equality as well but im not gonna join some society to get it. also u cant deny that the cross of lorraine is on the masonic crest. and your also dsaying to deny everything that comes from conspiracy sites.....what the hell are u doing on this site then.

1) You claim he was a mason. He is not. Not 33rd degree, not 3rd degree, not any degree.

2) No, not at all. Unlike many of the mythological groups that you may think run the world, when you slander freemasonry you are slandering real people. If you accuse the NWO of all sort of crazy things no one cares, because no one is in the NWO and it doesn't exist. When you do the same to masons, you are offending real people.

3) There has been no change to the degree system for at least 200 years. You just made that up (as you are making all this up) because you don't know how to process that I am a degree that you previously thought must know what is "really" going on. Now you will have to move your imaginary high level masons to a even higher level echelon that also doesn't exist.

4) Freemasonry is growing more than it has in recent history. Many lodges are seeing rapid growth. This is reality. No amount of you putting your hands over your years and screaming "I DONT HEAR YOU" is going to change that.

I don't even know what the "cross of lorraine" is but - after googling - nope, another case of people wanting to make something masonic that isnt. Its a heraldic cross - something similar to it appears in Scottish Rite freemasonry but it is not masonic anymore than a pyramid is.

Its really none of your concern why I am here. But debunking people like you is probably up at the top of my personal list.

[edit on 29-12-2008 by LowLevelMason]

I like to think the structure of Freemasonry is like a tree. The trunk being composed of the Craft Degrees. Then branches for each of the concordant bodies.

Originally posted by Icarus_Fallen
I realize that the upper echelon of other orders or "rites" (E.G. 12th degree Masons of The York Rite) should be evaluated in the contexts of their respective groups.

There are no real degrees in the upper echelons. The York Rite is composed of 3 bodies: Royal Arch, Cryptic Masons, and Chivalric Masons. In the Royal Arch the degrees are: Mark Master, Past Master (V), Most Excellent Master, and Royal Arch Mason. In Cryptic Masonry the degrees are: Royal Master, Select Master, and Super Excellent Master. Now when you get to Chivalric Masonry you are initiated into Orders not degrees which are: Illustrious Order of the Red Cross, Order of the Knights of Malta, and Order of the Temple (commonly known as the Knights Templar). Plus if you added up all the levels of the York Rite it wouldn't be 12-degrees, but 13-degrees.

Originally posted by RuneSpider
The York Rite gets more discriminatory as you move along it.
The final three degrees require you to be Christian, and to swear to defend the faith.
Except in the US, it seems, it's invitation only.

It is true that the last ORDERS do require you to be Christian, or at least swear to defend the Christian faith, but nothing is wrong with this. It is not however invitation only. You just fill out a petition to join.

[edit on 30-12-2008 by KSigMason]

I found a nice little quote that might work for this thread. It's from the much-maligned and much-venerated Manly Hall, but it's true:

"All true Masons know that their work is not secret.

They also realize that it must remain unknown to all who do not live the true Masonic Life.

If the secrets of Masonry were shouted from the housetops they would be absolutely safe. Certain spiritual qualities are necessary before Masonic secrets can be understood by the Brothers themselves. It is only those who have been weighed in the balance and found true, upright, and square who have prepared themselves by their own growth to appreciate the inner meanings of their Craft.

To the rest of their Brethren within or without the Lodge their sacred rituals must remain, as Shakespeare might have said, "Words, words, words."

Within the Mason's own being is concealed the Power, which, blazing forth from his purified being, constitutes the Builder's Word. His life is the password which admits him to the true Masonic Lodge.

His spiritual urge is the sprig of acacia which through the darkness of ignorance still proves that spiritual fire is alight. Within himself he must build those qualities which will make possible his true understanding of the Craft.

He can show the world only forms which mean nothing; the life within is forever concealed until the eye of Spirit reveals it."

Manly Hall

I like the part about a Mason's 'life' being his password. That, for me, is what it all boils down to.

I think our grips and passwords, etc. are just symbols to remind us that one day we are going to (as Monty Python puts it):

- cease to be

- expired and gone to meet the Maker

- bereft of life

- resting in peace

- pushing up the daisies

- metabolic processes are now history

- off the twig, kicked the bucket, shuffled off this mortal coil, run down the curtains and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!

--

At that point we are going to need a password and I don't think a handshake or silly word will do it. Our 'password' (and indeed the password of any person, mason or not) is going to be a life well-spent, helping others, loving our neighbors and God.

Anyway, I thought Hall's quote was poignant and (hopefully my brothers agree) exactly on target.