Jesus Christ is Definitely Coming

reply to post by 12.21.12

Christians, what do you have against science? What do you have against logic?

Nothing at all, my friend. Do you really assume that Christians are against science? I count hospital consultants, doctors, PhD and research scientists, a research mathemetician, lawyers, etc., among my personal friends who share my beliefs - and I'm just a single believer. Among my former acquaintances who have reached the same conclusion are a world-renowned professor of archeology, a not-world renowned professor of archeology, a top-level engineer, etc., etc.

Around the world countless thousands of people of the same calibre have examined the evidence and come to the same conclusion: Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh.

All of the above reject evolution too, incidentally - as do I - on the basis of scientific evidence and argument. It was a long journey for me: fossils & dinosaurs had been a favourite subject throughout my formative years. (Nevertheless I believed in Christ and assumed evolution to be true for many years, as do plenty of Christians to this day.)

Why is it that you can simply believe that Jesus was the one and only son of God without seeing any evidence or proof?

You're now saying there isn't any evidence whereas above you previously indicated you'd examined it. Sorry if this sounds harsh. I don't mean it that way - it's just a friendly challenge.

We don't have proof. But we've accepted that certain facts are true whether or not they can ultimately be demonstrated by total proof.

We have examined evidence, though. Our faith is based on a process more akin to an examination of evidence in a court case than to a scientific experiment. That's because by definition the scientific method cannot be applied to events that are not repeatable. How the world came to be, or the question of whether Christ rose from the dead are both questions that require inference and deduction after examining the evidence that is available.

Just as court cases cannot literally repeat a crime in full view of the jury, the evidence sometimes convinces, sometimes fails to do so. The jurors decide whether to exercise faith in the evidence.

Therefore just as the fact jurors exercise faith says nothing about their attitude to science or logic, so Christian faith does not preclude scientific or logical analysis.

Some scientists hold an a priori position that all phenomena can be explained without an ultimate Creator, and try to give the impression faith is incompatible with the practice of scientific research. It's bias, pure and simple.

The totally materialistic view of life has arguably blinded a lot of scientists from many promising avenues of research. An atheistic perspective is often assumed in the literature to such an extent it is often no different from a religious dogma. It blindly ignores the fact many scientists, plenty of whom are leaders in their field, have a deep faith in God.

Your taking the book placed in your hands, by those who modified it and taking it for the truth not only plays into the hands of the elites, but also keeps human kind in the state of slavery and oppression. You taking these oppressors at their word, by a creation of their own works with a bit of truth sprinkled here and there has kept us slaves for thousands of years.

I've spent 30 years examining the evidence for the reliability of the manuscripts and am of the firm belief they are reliable. I've taken no-one at their word, least of all any opressors.

Here's a good example of the evidence I find convincing:

The New Testament Documents: are they reliable?

I've read the above and studied countless other sources over the years. I've made up my own mind. Nobody thinks for me: my faith is not blind, but evidence-based.

As for the connection between Christian state-organized religion and its manipulation of and by governments through the centuries I agree: it is abhorrent. It has nothing to do with my faith, however, which is just a matter of seeking to honour and obey what Jesus Christ taught.

I believe in things that are tangible and have at least a very large amount of evidence to back it up.

And I believe the ordered nature of the universe, and the incredible intricacy of many things that are tangible, such as the biochemistry of living organisms, are overwhelmingly indicative of intelligent design. Is it logical to assume that when people have a different interpretation to your own it means they are not logical?

Christians, the story doesn't add up. Your faith has no basis.

Here is a quick summary of the basis of my faith:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Our faith does have a basis, 12.21.12. I challenge you to seriously look again at the evidence, such as the book above. You never know - it may open up possibilities you never dreamed existed.


[edit on 28/12/08 by pause4thought]

reply to post by pause4thought


Thanks Pause, I definitely understand where you are coming from. Believe me I do.

Wouldn't you also agree that sometimes innocent people are held accountable for other peoples crimes, judgement based on faith leaves room for mistakes, science and proof do not.

However, I have looked into the Birth of Jesus Christ and I can explain the virgin birth. It was not a virgin birth at all. If you are up to the challenge, direct your attention here, www.abovetopsecret.com...' , or you can choose to challenge me in a debate if you wish in a fresh new thread. Otherwise, you can swear up and down that unicorns are real, but that does not make it so. I did look at those links, but why would I spend a tremendous amount of time researching a claim that is purely a work of fiction and fantasy?

Originally posted by 12.21.12
Christians, what do you have against science? What do you have against logic?

Well after my little journeys, I don't quite know if I'd want to be known as a christian, but I do know the creator reveals himself in me continually through his son and that if I deny that to you, then I'm lying to you.

Originally posted by 12.21.12
Why is it that you can simply believe that Jesus was the one and only son of God without seeing any evidence or proof.

Ok I absolutely refuse to get into a circular, round and round and round and round and round debate with you, but I can explain this reality in me to you this way.

John mentioned the fact that if one is born from the creator, that he cannot sin because the creator's seed remains in him.

I compare it to my heart. Now I have never seen my heart, but I cannot deny it because I feel it beating in my chest and after all I'm alive.

Of course you can find many loopholes in that and countless ways to dodge this. That's elementary.

Originally posted by 12.21.12
Your taking the book placed in your hands, by those who modified it and taking it for the truth

I agree in some of this because like history shows whenever you need scripture you go to a scribe or a pharisee to get it. We could call them historical/traditional theologians now. These are they that search the scriptures thinking that the life itself is in them yet forsake the fountain of living waters the only source of life that exists.

While their are some minor mistranslations and such to twist things, the overall truth is still there.

Originally posted by 12.21.12
not only plays into the hands of the elites

The 'elites' don't know their heads from their hind ends. It's the spirits that drive them and even they can only do what they are let do.

There is only one power and that is the creator. Everything else simply lives within him.

Something I've yet to wrap my head around is how a being can be in such a state of retardation that he thinks he can ascend to his throne by the use of flesh and overthrow him. Yet that's a different topic entirely.

Originally posted by 12.21.12
Christians, the story doesn't add up. Your faith has no basis. You have been lied to.

Interesting. Nobody lied to me. Neither did anyone tell me the truth. The creator at his own will chose at a point in my life to reveal himself in me and also later that the testimony of his son is true.

You can probably explain this as delusion, well have at it. Yet I've personally been given too much evidence to deny him.

reply to post by 12.21.12

Wouldn't you also agree that sometimes innocent people are held accountable for other peoples crimes, judgement based on faith leaves room for mistakes, science and proof do not.

Good point. But at the same time if 'science and proof' cannot by their very nature ultimately ascertain the absolute veracity of past events, then an investigation of the evidence is the only means open to us.

Contrary to a common misconception gaining Christian faith is generally a process that takes a considerable amount of serious thought and investigation. Those who claim to have suddenly 'seen the light' (perhaps in a heightened state of emotion) are all too often those who end up rejecting it.

I checked out the thread you linked to. It started:

Jesus Christ was Caesarion, the son of Julius Caesar and Cleopatra.

At this point I'll just say that I find the testimony of those who knew Jesus Christ personally more credible than any new-fangled theory, intellectually stimulating though it may be. I hope to check out what you wrote there in greater detail, though.

One thing it did show was that you are well capable of examining disparate information and tying things together, so I still believe you'd find an examination of the evidence I suggested stimulating - if only to see how it ties in with your current world-view

you can choose to challenge me in a debate if you wish in a fresh new thread

Fair enough. I accept your challenge. I suggest this as the venue:

www.belowtopsecret.com...

I think the issues raised in that thread are very pertinent to what we've discussed here.

But please allow me to respond tomorrow. I'm a little sick & have been lying in bed typing away virtually all day. Time for a break. I'm sure you'll understand.

But feel free to take up the reigns today.

I did look at those links, but why would I spend a tremendous amount of time researching a claim that is purely a work of fiction and fantasy?

Because they provide evidence and logical, reasoned arguments that contravene that assumption.

But I definitely understand where you are coming from. Believe me I do.

reply to post by pause4thought


Thanks Pause, I will accept your challenge how ever I do not think that thread properly addresses the topic at hand. Truth be told, there are things written in the Bible that hold true. I would not ever wish to debate that.

So here are my guidelines. The thread should be on ATS, nature of topic Science vs. Creationism, something along those lines. The thread is a debate between you and I though all ATS members are welcome to join in and help each other out. Depending on where they stand on the issue. So those who have been participating here are all welcome to discuss and help pause4thought or me if they wish. The thread should discuss the origins of Jesus Christ and creationism and why or why not the story of Jesus Christ holds any water in the physical world.

Please let me know if you have any objections, modifications or would like to add any details I left out. I too, think I have had my fill of ATS for the day and at the very least am probably going to lie down and take a nap for a while. I am not sure where you are posting from but I am Standard Mountain Time here right now it is 2:00. I will most likely be less distracted later this evening so if you are feeling up for the challenge later on, please drop me a line and let me know.

Take care, I look forward to discussing this with you later on.

reply to post by 12.21.12

The thread should be on ATS, nature of topic Science vs. Creationism, something along those lines...

I'm sorry 12.21.12, I only mentioned creation in passing. What is more my whole point was that I and many highly-educated scientists/professionals of my acquaintance believe the world around us was created on the back of scientific evidence - so 'science vs. creationism' makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

...why or why not the story of Jesus Christ holds any water in the physical world

If that's the issue, debate it with me in the thread I suggested.

If you wish to debate creation vs. evolution, there's a whole forum devoted to it:

Origins & Creationism forum

I've not spent much time in there myself as the debates tend to be very hostile, with little room for actually listening to each other.

On the other hand, if you're really rooting for a show-stopping, High Noon, debate-to-end-them-all (screams heard in the background), I suggest you join the debating forum over here:

Debate forum

I expect AshleyD, who's already a member & takes part in the Creation & Origins forum would be up for it.

I've enjoyed debating you in here. And thanks for keeping things civil!

reply to post by pause4thought


Thanks Pause. Sometimes these religiously heated debates only add more fuel to the fire and tend to lead nowhere. Thanks for your thoughts and input on this matter and always keep seeking the truth, peace be with you.

reply to post by Lenbenhear


Hi Len,

Thank you so much, my friend. I knew I would be mocked and put down, but I don't care - look how many people I have discussing Jesus. He also was mocked and put down.

I wish you a great year.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


YAY!! A lot of pages about Jesus - hooray for me!!!

tyty,
Spellbound.

reply to post by 12.21.12


That is WHY he is coming back! We are between two advents at the moment. He has already been here for the first advent. The Second Coming will be glory

Matthew 25:31-46
When the Son of Man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sid upon the throne of his glory; and before him shall be gathered all nations; and he shall separate them ne from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats; and he shall set the sheep at his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed on my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you fromthe foundation of the world....Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared fo the devil and his angels"

Just as the First Advent of Christ was personal; so will be his Second Advent personal.

Now more then ever, a person needs their personal quite time with the Father. He will guide us in spiritual wisdom and grant us spiritual knowledge. We just need to come to him with a humble heart, humble mind, humble body and humble spirit.

I look to the hills, where does my help come from? It comes from the Lord, the maker of heaven and earth.........Pslam 121

Peace to you
Grandma

reply to post by Grandma


Thank you, Grandma,

And all who have posted here - I have started a new post saying thank the Lord I posted here - Heavenly intervention, maybe?

Spellbound