Can truth ever Win?

Understanding is the foundation of forgivness, without understanding your forgiveness is fake and hallow, without reason.

People always say they forgive people... but then add somthing like because jesus said so.

but jesus didnt want you just to parrot what he says... because... well parrots would do it better.

Well truth can only be one thing and a lie can be an infant number of things. So in an infinity of lies how do you expect to find the truth my friend? only by living infant lives will you reach the truth and then you may pass it by.

reply to post by Wertdagf



Evil and good are human concepts that describe two parts of the same whole.... and you forget that if "good" were to take over and nurture and care for every single being that has ever existed, nothing would ever die or be destroyed, and eventually that in itself would destroy the whole planet. That in itself would breed "evil".

Truth is subjective, although there are several things in which our collective mind MOSTLY agrees upon.Almost everybody agrees that we are living on a planet called Earth (some may disagree wholeheartedly, ya never know), but not everybody agrees whether this room is too bright or this room is too dim. Neither brightness nor dimness is purely objective, so you cannot judge the truth of the matter in an honest way.

Some people enjoy killing. Some people want to kill themselves. Some people do death defying things without fear. Some people have transcended this reality. So the truth isn't that everybody is afrad of death.

Aliens have never been seen by some, and some see aliens every day. So the truth of the matter isn't that aliens exist for everyone.

Some people see the government as can do no wrong. Some people see the government as evil. The truth is that both are right in their own minds.

However foolish some people's truths may be, the simple fact is that.... in an infinite universe.... truth could be anything. In my universe, I have my truths, which could always change.... and when the "time" comes for your universe to exist in this observer's "eyes".... your truths may become more evident to the observer who may not be able to understand them now.

But here and now... there are definitely SOME things which (if well informed enough) could be agreed upon by the vast majority. Tho0se truths, however self evident they may be, are not permanent, because nothing we sense is permanent. If there was only one truth which could never be denied, it is that whatever IT is, IT is always changing. Maybe not even that. Maybe the one truth can never be uttered by human tongues.

Truth is highly subjective and entirely dependent upon each individuals concepts and moral ideals among other factors.

Even with irrefutable proofs an individual is required to "trust" those proofs. How much they trust determines the level of truth as they perceive it.

Put all of these individuals together and we're bound to get a majority and minority of "truth". Through shared ideals, similar morals etc etc a majority of people will see certain proofs as being truthful.

911 is a perfect example.

many believe the proofs of truth as they were presented, first hand witnesses, media coverage, official versions and facts. Yet there are many who dispel these proofs and have their own facts, proofs and data to substantiate their trust in their version.

yes the truth can win. in modern day society It's called majority rule.

I'm not trying to be cheeky either.

With billions of people on this earth certain truths will gain a majority, the facts, proofs examples and tangible data combined with "gut feeling or instinct"...there will still be many that don not trust those same proofs enough to call it truth.

just my take on it and that is as subjective as the truth is

Evil and good are human concepts that describe two parts of the same whole.... and you forget that if "good" were to take over and nurture and care for every single being that has ever existed, nothing would ever die or be destroyed, and eventually that in itself would destroy the whole planet. That in itself would breed "evil".

your missing something very fundamental here..... i hope you can figure out what it is. Good luck.

If truth stands on its own, without regard to the human condition, its a result of the Natural world and in Pure form. ( Universal truths, laws of the cosmos, etc) These truths do not rely on human interpretation and are not subject to our flaws. They exist with or without us and could care less what we think of them.
Gravity will exert itself, the speed of light is constant, elements will arrange themselves and the building blocks of life will find a way. These truths will always win in the end.

reply to post by Hallberg Rassy


Great thought and well spoken.

If we take that idea and apply it to social humanity do we have truth?

In other words are their things that we can do that will cause us to be completely rejected by our society and every society showing that it is truly a law, a moral law and not a projection of what just one or two societys accepts as correct and moral?

Hope that makes sense.

By the way I am surprised at how many people take an interest in this topic.



[edit on 1-1-2009 by whiteraven]

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Understanding is the foundation of forgivness, without understanding your forgiveness is fake and hallow, without reason.

People always say they forgive people... but then add somthing like because jesus said so.

but jesus didnt want you just to parrot what he says... because... well parrots would do it better.

Deep brother ..deep...and it is fn hard to do at times. Sometimes if someone has really wronged you you just feel pissed every time you think about it.

And if you see him you get an evil urge...makes it hard.

What I find now is that it is a moment to moment thing as feeling will get triggered for know apparent reason and then you are left to wonder if you have really forgiven or just buried the whole thing.

I am with you.

Tho0se truths, however self evident they may be, are not permanent, because nothing we sense is permanent. If there was only one truth which could never be denied, it is that whatever IT is, IT is always changing. Maybe not even that. Maybe the one truth can never be uttered by human tongues.

reply to post by dunwichwitch

ON THE REALITY OF SELF-EVIDENT TRUTH

Consider the statement "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." In order to accurately decipher this statement one must entertain a proper understanding of the term self-evident. In order to realize a proper understanding of the term self-evident one must also recognize to whom the statement is evident.

The dictionary or textbook definition of self-evident is "evident in itself without proof or reasoning." This definition however is not tenable when subjected to critical examination. The truth that "all men are created equal" is deemed self-evident by the Declaration’s Signers, but can that term, self-evident, be defined as "evident in itself without proof or reasoning?" I think not. To hold a truth to be "evident in itself without proof or reasoning" is tantamount to saying that the truth is an unverified, unreasoned, axiomatic proposition. For the Signers to set forth the enumerated truths as unverified, unreasoned, axiomatic propositions would be the equivalent of evoking the truths as mere suppositions in the guise of reality. Had the Signers of the Declaration only supposed that "all men are created equal" they could not, in good conscious, have held it to be a truth. To the contrary, the Signers use of the term self-evident in the Declaration is an adjective expression of an attribute in support of the stated truths. The intent of the Signers is certain, the realities of Nature the Signers set forth as truths are held to be self-evident in that they are clear to the understanding of the Signers themselves. It is the Signers that attest to this reality. A reality they professed as evident to their individual conscious selves.

Furthermore, if self-evident truth is defined as truth that is "evident in itself without proof or reasoning," the truth does not proceed from the rational examination of the pertinent facts or concepts and therefore is not the product of an intellect’s reason. The truth of such concepts as Mankind’s equality and Endowed Rights can only be evident to a rational intellect and hence does not exist absent a rational intellect. Those truths which were asserted by the Signers as evident to the Signers (clear to their individual conscious selves) must have arisen from such facts and concepts that resided with their rational intellects. In professing the enumerated truths as self-evident, the Signers attested to the fact that the enumerated truths conformed to their conscious understanding of reality.

Therefore, in order to gain a viable understanding of the Signers’ intent for the term self-evident as utilized in the Declaration of Independence, a proper definition of self-evident must be employed. A literal interpretation of the compound word self-evident provides the most obvious clarification, i.e., "that which is evident to the individual conscious self." Viewed from this perspective, the perspective of an individual human being, truth which is deemed self-evident is deemed evident (clear) to the understanding of one’s self. The truths enumerated in the Declaration of Independence are self-evident not only because the Signers understood them to be self-evident but also because the natural intellectual process utilized by any individual member of the human race (one of Mankind’s many selves) clearly leads to the conclusion of their truth.

Based on the above elementary definition of self-evident, I beg to differ with the argument advanced by certain critics of the Declaration of Independence that, ". . . the truths they (the founders) held to be self-evident are scarcely self-evident . . . and we are starting with the presupposition that (the truths are self-evident)." In response to these criticisms consider the following.

www.classicalreality.net...

In other words is the below pasted statement true? And if so will it win?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

I think people like to cloud this whole deal up with things that sound good.
Stuff that sounds "smart" or educated or whatever. I say, however, that the only thing that could even be called true is too simple for people to even want to know.

Therefore, I guess that flavors people's eager willingness to be lied to.
If everyone always wanted "truth", they would sacrifice peace of mind... or at least the illusion of peace of mind. So in reality, truth when realized becomes evil, and the lie becomes good. So people either strive to replace the truth they have found with another impermanent lie, or they they just stick to the le they have already taken comfort in.

Sometimes, I feel jealous of people who believe in lies, because people who are searching for the truth eventually realize that no serenity can be found when you're always searching.

People THINK they want the truth, but then they usually get angry or sad or distraught in some way when they hear it.

Kind of like you just did.......... hmm thats a strange irony huh? man i just LOVE life... i love it and i forgive it.... because i understand it. All of the glory to god almighty, the alpha and the omega. It all makes sense... and now the only reason i ever feel dispair is from my empathy. Its so wonderfull and horrible... like sleeping in a bed of the finest glass shards!

What;s great is that ALL of the replies are subjective proof of subjective truths. Ideals and beliefs and feelings of the individual(s) responding. If we can't even agree to what exactly truth is yet we all "know" what it is how much more subjective can it be???

Truth is an oxymoron, truth is what truth says but not what truth does and visa versa. Truth is a gut feeling or a strong belief. Truth is so simple that it is complex. Truth is a word designed to be incredibly vague. It's origins are really very interesting and very telling (not to mention contradictory if you analyze the more modern sources and references and the historic references and translations). Commonly translated and broken down from ancient dialects and writings it is "faith" or "faithfulness". (Also - steadfast, strong, unwaivering, steady...etc etc)

We ALL know faith is excruciatingly subjective and personal to each individual...

That's why propaganda is so frighteningly effective ; truth can so easily be created because it IS subjective and can very easily be manipulated and distorted.

truth always wins.it's not even a contest

guess i should post a second line..let's try a new emote