Happy Boxing Day.

In regard to truth.

Briefly, all desire to know the truth.

This is a common desire.

We all desire to suppress truth as well.

If we have transgressed in some fashion we do not wish for the truth of the matter to be displayed for all to see.

So if all desire to know truth yet some desire only for certain truths to win while suppressing others would not truth lose simply because those who control information also suppress certain truths which they find damming?

Those suppressed truths, suppresses in view of self interest of those who control information?
So how can truth ever win?

Wow. Nice bunch of generalizations you got there...

NOT all desire to know the truth.

NOT all desire to suppress truth as well.

Truth never wins, it just IS

Evil is self destructive..... it will not and cannot survive infinity. Good is nurturing and creative.. it is the foundation of the universe.

truth has already won because it surpasses time.

I have no shame in the suffering i inflicted upon myself or others in learning. I have no desire to hide my horrible mistakes that teach me beautiful lessons.

It is the nature of repentance and forgiveness. When you change your veiw on life it is as if who you were has died... and you are raised again.

The only truth is my truth.

A combination of half truths and lies work well for racist politically agenda driven people who will never back down or accept any truth other than that which they have created.

Truth and personal perspective are relative.

Truth is usually an illusion, one that, with work, will find believers.

The truth always wins.... But is it really the truth?

Truth is subjective, and is someone is trusted in society they can make up what they want to destroy others. So what is truth.

Truth that police are serial killers is not well known, but heck, they still are.

It is the nature of repentance and forgiveness

I believe that "truth" can win only with the view of forgiveness. All must be forgiven of everything and this must be held as a deep belief among all.

Then fear will no longer block truth from winning.

Truth can be relative to the environment or context.

In Politics, perception is reality, and can be self perpetuating. If a politician tells a lie enough times, it becomes accepted and then becomes reality, or its own truth, in a manner of speaking

In a courtroom, the truth is what can be proven. If the lawyer cannot prove the truth, it does not matter. It carries no weight or impact.

In the scientific world, truth must be subjected to battery of tests and repeat results.

If truth stands on its own, without regard to the human condition, its a result of the Natural world and in Pure form. ( Universal truths, laws of the cosmos, etc) These truths do not rely on human interpretation and are not subject to our flaws. They exist with or without us and could care less what we think of them.
Gravity will exert itself, the speed of light is constant, elements will arrange themselves and the building blocks of life will find a way. These truths will always win in the end.

Lies need a lot of constant energy to be preserved, whereas the truth spreads energy.

Therefore, in the end, truth will always prevail, cause the amount of energy needed to prerserve a lie will reach a critical mass at some point.

Just like what's happening in the world right now.

The problem is this is how you and I feel as well as most ATS readers...ie....Deny Ignorance....yet their are many who feel no guilt, no remorse, no darkness with the actions they push forward.....they are truly ignorant of the idea of harm unless it somehow causes self harm.

Yes, but a moment will come where the lie cannot be contained any longer, and then even the closedminded, guiltless individuals will have to face it, especially once they start getting in harms way themselves.

And so in order for that to happen....in order for the utopian day to arrive....some outside force must suppress those who deny truth?

Those who deny truth will be forced by something or someone to "pony up"?

OR WHAT? Punishment if they do not? Sounds like an inquisition to me.

What if reward and punishment are simply inventions of mankind?

If reward never existed in your life...if one had zero reward for any action what would you do?

We cannot know as our chemical makeup is conditioned with a reward response mechanism....jist like Pavlov's dogs or Skinner's pigeons...we are a product of reward and punishment.

Truth is suppressed in the actions of reward and punishment.

Where do we come by the ideas of reward and punishment? Where did our fathers, grandfathers etc come up with this idea?

Was it a product of survival conditioning? Punish kid if he spills all the food or plays in stored food for winter.....reward kid with food after morning chores......where did the system arrive into mankinds general way of doing things?

Was it our religions?

Was it an inate sense of justice?


[edit on 26-12-2008 by whiteraven]

The truth lingers like an Autumn breeze flowing from place to place.

What I mean by this is that the number of people who want to know the truth verses those who don't will always be equal in a way.

Wait that sounded better in my head.

It almost seems as if truth is subjective.

There is an ultimate truth perhaps.

I would have to say truth would't win because it doesn't compete.

And so in order for that to happen....in order for the utopian day to arrive....some outside force must suppress those who deny truth?

I'm not sure if this was a response to me but, that's not what I mean.

It's not about punishment, I'm just saying that there comes a day when noone can believe the lies any longer, especially when they get at the wrong end of the lie.

Originally posted by enigmania

And so in order for that to happen....in order for the utopian day to arrive....some outside force must suppress those who deny truth?

I'm not sure if this was a response to me but, that's not what I mean.

It's not about punishment, I'm just saying that there comes a day when noone can believe the lies any longer, especially when they get at the wrong end of the lie.

Yes it was to you.

I agree that it seems that we have some form of pressure which wants truth to prevail.

Just out of curiosity if a group of people know of a transgresion it seems that a need exists to speak of it. To find out the truth even if it is within that group.

Also....I agree that in that group energy is used to cover up the transgression sometimes resulting in the demise of the group...sometimes not.

Some groups seems to thrive on the profit of transgression. If you examine Empire Building by any entity they profit for a time from theft of land and murder of the people but they all crumble. Those who speak of a kingdom that survives for evervalue truth yet truth never seems to gain and hold power. Lies dominate and hold truth at bay.

Yet some truth will survive among the victims ...ie truth of the old ways...truth of what belonged to who....truth of what/how people were killed/raped/stolen from..etc it seems justice turns its eyes toward some other goal other then the revealing of truth and the redemption of those who have suffered loss at the hands of imperialists.

Some form of Justice may emerge but it is generally years after the truth of a matter has risen. Look at the north American indian for example....he has lost all ....tradition, land, family,the law of the old ways, and now they have gained some justice via Casino's...lol but not really....

I remember reading about a Chief who saw that all was gone as he sat a prison in the USA after the last of the Indian Wars....all the buffalo, all the land that they once roamed and hunted on, the fowl of the air are being massacred, the rivers and the streams full of the blood of Indian Children and Women...all was gone.

The truth of the slaughter of the people is suppresed by American History and the people still starve. They are the poorest of the poor in North America.

So the question still stands " How can truth win?"

Empires have crumbled before, only to be replaced with another, only the regimes changed, the lies stayed the same, the people stayed the same.

I think that we have gotten to a point in our history, were we, the people, finally have the means to acces and spread the information to expose the all-encompassing lies told to mankind, for all this time.

This time the truth has a chance of getting out, but what's more important, way more important, is that this time, people will find the truth within themselves, and that's what really going to make a difference.

After that, lies don't work no more.

[edit on 27/12/08 by enigmania]