OT Bible 101 Noose or Loophole?

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Topic, Conditions and my Aim explained: 1stly I use the KJV bible on the blueletterbible website and the freedictionary website(for semantics only) but I am willing to use any other commonly valid versions of bible or dictionary. 2ndly I am restricting this thread to using only the OT and ranking scriptures in the Torah as more valid than any others unless of course they fully correspond and reinforce each other! 3rdly I repeat the NT or the Quoran/Koran or hebrew oral law or wikipedia are not valid texts for the purpose of this thread. OT only please (You May use the blueletterbible website) 4th and finally as to the Topic "OT Bible 101 Noose or Loophole?". I will be proposing a biblical argument using OT scripture that the Noose (in this case the Torah scriptures and those other OT scriptures supporting it) far outway the Loophole (in this case Japhthah's daughter being offered as a BURNT OFFERING!! and no I'm not kidding read Judges Chptr 11: vrs 1- 40 especially vrs 31,35,36,37 & 39 (blueletterbible) ) [REQUIRED READING!!!] and as such the WHOLE book of Judges MUST be discounted as true Biblical (i.e. WORD OF GOD/YHVH) cannon(Primary Hypothesis). This is what this thread and any debates contained within shall discuss as per ATS/BTS perscribed standards!!!

Now on to Noose(Torah) vs Loophole(book of Judges specifically chptr11 [Have you read it? if not read it now and even if you have, read it again!])

I have provided scripture for the Loophole upfront [ That is because I am also contending that if Judges stands then I could burn my children (especially my virgin daughters) as an BURNT OFFERING to GOD/YHVH if I can manufacture a situation just like Japhthah's!!! not that there is any religiously acceptable altar on which to do it currently! But then again that is not the point.(2ndry Hypothesis)] and so now I need to provide the scriptures of the Noose...
So here goes:- (Torah scriptures 1st followed by other supporting OT scriptures)

Deu 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

And

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Deu 18:12 For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

And (Complimentary only scriptures below. Torah takes precedence and has prioritory! Pls read Ezekiel chptr 16 in full especially vrs 20 and 21 in full for full context)

Eze 16:20 And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your harlotries so small a matter

Eze 16:21 that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them?

And I am fully aware of the Molech/Moloch scriptures but as they are very specific to that unique foriegn deity or practice and so I fully discount them but as to the 2 Torah scriptures I provide above I won't budge an inch as they both go directly to not cooking your children for GOD/YHVH or any other reason (Deut 18:10 is pretty broad termanology!) and I hope one would assume that includes as a BURNT OFFERING on his personal altar!!!

Also the numbers game: 2 OT authors providing 3 specific scriptures (Deut 12:31 Deut 18:10 Eze 16:21) support my Primary hypothesis i.e. Moses and Ezekiel vs 1 OT author (the ambiguous writer of the book of Judges) who provides 2 specific scriptures that supports my 2ndry hypothesis (Judges 11:31 & 39). In both cases the numbers support my Primary hypothesis that the book of Judges is NOT religious cannon.

Anyway there is my hypothesis , arguments and proofs fully provided as I know them But I'm fully open to having my ignorance Denied!!!

So what say you? Am I right in that the Noose(Torah) outways the Loophole(Judges chptr11) or can I crank my BBQ up??? (Just Joking : apocryphal but fun! )

Personal Disclosure: I have no children and I don't own a BBQ and I'm NOT of the Abrahamic faiths and also My Own Personal Faith doesn't require me to COOK MY OFFSPRING AS AN OFFERING!!! Also even if the book of Judges stands, I wholeheartedly do NOT recommend or endorse, based on what it says, that any actions be taken by anybody on this subject matter ever !!!

P.S. My next thread , if the book of Judges remains full cannon, will be whether the priest got to keep her skin? Lev 7:8 And the priest that offereth any man's burnt offering, [even] the priest shall have to himself the skin of the burnt offering which he hath offered.
or her right thigh or her breast ? Num 18:8-20 specifically
Num 18:9 This shall be thine of the most holy things, [reserved] from the fire: every oblation of theirs, every meat offering of theirs, and every sin offering of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs, which they shall render unto me, [shall be] most holy for thee and for thy sons.
Num 18:10 In the most holy [place] shalt thou eat it; every male shall eat it: it shall be holy unto thee.
And...Num 18:18 And the flesh of them shall be thine, as the wave breast and as the right shoulder are thine. Num 18:19 All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it [is] a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed.

I have really never thought about it, but, I ASSUMED that Jephthah's daughter became the PROPERTY of the Temple, like Samuel.
Here's a web-site about it;
bible-christian.org...

In those days, not to have children, for an Israeli woman, was almost worse than dying, it meant no future for the family. It meant no security when you reached old age. So this was a great sacrifice of her life in not being able to marry. This was what Jephthah did in lieu of sacrificing her physically, which would have been a terrible sin for Jephthah. No mention is made of such a terrible sin, because it did not happen. What did happen is seen in the rest of the passage. "And it became a custom in Israel that the daughters of Israel went four days each year to lament (this Hebrew word "lethanoth," rendered to "bewail" or "lament," rather meant to "celebrate;" these daughters of Israel went yearly, not to lament, but with songs of praise to celebrate) the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite" To this day, Jewish women admire the sacrifice Jephthah’s daughter made of her life. She lived a holy life only for the LORD, all of the rest of her days.

So to recap, "Jepthah’s daughter would have bewailed her coming death, not her virginity, if she was to be sacrificed. Rather, she bewailed the fact that she would have to live her whole life without husband and children, performing service to the Lord. Yet she was willing to do this, because of her father’s vow and her gratitude to the Lord for delivering her people from the Ammonites." (Judges 11:38 footnote, The Defender’s Study Bible, Dr. Henry M. Morris) Something to keep in mind also is that when Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son, God did not make him go through with it, but stopped him before he actually took his son’s life, and God provided a sacrifice. This is because God only allowed for one such sacrifice, and that was of His own Son Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for our sins. The good news is that He rose again the third day to eternal life. Now if you will accept Him as your personal Savior you will have eternal life as well. God Bless you as you continue to study God’s Word. Everything is not "cut and dried" so to speak. Sometimes we have to dig to find the answers, and that is what God wants, He wants us to dig into His Word, that is perfect, and it will enlighten our souls.

reply to post by Clearskies
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation:- 1stly thanks for participating in my thread

2ndly Although I feel your Link is unwarranted as I would of prefered to have shot down scripture but here goes....

A) How hard is it to follow what he vows. That he also states he can't take it back (regardless of whether she agrees with him or not) and as a virgin she represents an unblemished offering. And that finally she is "offered as her father vowed (i.e. as a BURNT OFFERING!) there is NO ambiguity there!

And

B) Ezekiels scriptures point to it not as a true sacrifice to YHVH but to MOLECH (Didn't YHVH have some prophets(from Moses onward) proclaim Isreal would lose their way and go after the practices that YHVH warned them thru Moses about! YES or NO?.I say YES and I can hunt down scripture backing my claim up if you want.) who could of easily supplanted YHVH as time went by leading Japhthah well off the Torah sanctioned path!

Personal Disclosure: I hope this inspires you to think more about such subjects and I patiently await any questions or replys that you may have and certainly welcome you denying any ignorance that I may promote.

reply to post by OmegaLogos

Why would Jephthah's daughter lament her 'virginity' instead of her 'life', unless she was going to be dedicated to the work of the Lord in the Temple as other women had done?

Jdg 11:37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.


Jdg 11:38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away [for] two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.


Jdg 11:39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her [according] to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,


Jdg 11:40 [That] the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.

Why did the daughters of Israel 'lament her virginity'?
There were women who remained virgins and worked in the Temple;

Luk 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this [child] is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;


Luk 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.


Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;


Luk 2:37 And she [was] a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served [God] with fastings and prayers night and day.


Luk 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.


Luk 2:39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.

reply to post by Clearskies
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: Why? Because she realized that if she had sexual relations with anybody then she would become a defiled offering and that God/YHVH would punish both her and him for her transgression. Also just ask several jewish women what it meens to be barren or to go childless in ones lifetime and I think would help clarify why both she and the whole of Isreal lamented her virginity. Besides you still can't ignore that the Bible indicates his exact vow was carried out!

Personal Disclosure: BTW You didn't confirm whether you agreed or not with the scriptures of Ezekiel that I supplied and whether they could indicate a sacrifice not to YHVH but to MOLECH/MOLOCH?

AND BTW pls reread my OP and take note of the restrictions as your NT scriptures don't count. Just a friendly reminder. Thanks.


[edit on 24-12-2008 by OmegaLogos]

reply to post by OmegaLogos


Sorry about the break in rules!
I don't get what you're saying about the Torah and Molech worship.
I don't believe it ADVOCATES it at ALL, but there was molech worship. Even Solomon caused his children to pass through the fire!

At any rate, I think that Jephthah gave his daughter to be a servant in the Temple, like Samuel was given by Hannah, his mother.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by Clearskies]

reply to post by OmegaLogos


According to the wording of the text, I believe that Jephthah intended to sacrifice a human from the very beginning. What else could come out of his house? Now this does not mean that judges itself is not divinely inspired. It is recording events that happened. God did not require that vow of Jephthah, he made it on his own, foolishly I might add. Jephthah felt obligated to fulfill a foolish vow he had made unto God, although surely God would have forgiven him for breaking that vow. Also, if you read chapters 1-10 of judges, it is obvious that Israel had been following the practices of the peoples around them. They only asked for God's help once the other peoples started to rise against them, and after person God chose to lead the Israelites passed away, they almost always turned back to their "whoring to other gods" as the KJV puts it. Jephthah had probably picked up some bad habits from the worship of other gods. Also, one might ask, why would God use someone like Jephthah who, although being a devout follow of YHWH, obviously had participated in things dispeasing to the Lord? One only need point to the anger of moses, murdering the egyptian, smashing the ten commandments, or hitting the rock of mirabah. He was a great man of faith, committed to the Lord wholeheartedly, but obviously needed some anger management courses. Also David, who was covetous of Uriah's wife, which caused him to commit adultery and murder. God clearly states that David was faithful to the end. Also Samson, who had an affinitey for fleshly pleasures (women), and constantly used the great power God had given him to take revenge, instead of doing God's will. In short, no one is perfect, and God can use all for his purposes.

reply to post by one_man24
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

UPFRONT Personal Disclosure: YOU COMPLETELY ROCK!!!

Explanation: Awesome reply! So its sorta Noose for you [please correct me if I am wrong] and you explain your caveat for RETAINING Judges as Canonical, which I personally found to have some depth to it and if I can take you a bit deeper then I will show you that although your knowledge isn't just reef deep, that you have yet to step off that continental shelf and get out into the abyss where Judges [and other biblical books] are NOT Canonical at all in nature, but are [and I think we agree here and I quote you "It is recording events that happened."] Historical and [here I don't know whether you agree or not] maybe even Mythological [tainted by the hand of man?or the devil?] in nature.

Personal Disclosure:Care to cruise well below "Crush" depth with me??? If yes please check out that 2nd thread I alerted you to previously on another thread. Your insight is quite sharp and you've shown you've got some guts and more importantly a spine to back it up with...Star for you and THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

reply to post by OmegaLogos


You know, I really like you. lol. Yes, I agree that in my opinion, Judges seems to be more of a recording of events, but I believe it has an important role to play in the bible. I will not promise to agree on everything with you, but you can expect me to always be polite and friendly, and I will definitely hop off of the continental shelf with you, and go "crush" deep, as you put it. Thanks for all the compliments, and for the star and the flag.

reply to post by OmegaLogos


Oh yeah, and I am going with loophole. Unless the Noose is for Jephthah, because he definitely hung himself on that one. lol

reply to post by one_man24
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: Yes the Noose was for Jephthah as the Torah hangs him completely. We seem to both agree that the laws of the Torah [the Noose] take precedent over anyone who is promoting trying to use the book of Judges to sanctify the burning of ones child on the altar of YHVH [the loophole]. What we don't seem to agree on is whether what is written in the book of Judges by an unnamed author (maybe Ezra???) is Canonical [your POV] or just Historical/Mythological in nature [my POV]. In that 2nd thread of mine that I have previously mentioned I lay out all my reasons for holding that only the Torah is Canonical in nature and only because of certain A PRIORI PURE GIVENS being chosen to begin with. I recommend you take a look.

Personal Disclosure: Regardless of the validity of the Torah, I'm glad YHVH also found burnt babies detestable in the extreme! I may find him personally detestable but on this subject we come together like fingers on a hand to create a solid fist! I wonder what this says about kids cooking in hell?

Explanation: Bumped to help generate ad revenue!

Personal Disclosure: Enjoy!