Falluja Surrounded By USA!

Magecarin>where did you get that figure of 600 from ???

lunaville.org...

its over 600 as u can see, however my question was what would it take for US to leave iraq ? more dead soldiers, more international pressure (like that ever worked with US ), or are u guys there for good ? because do u honestly believe that any iraqi goverment will last more than few hours/days ? the people need dictator, they used to live like this for god knows how long

[Edited on 7-4-2004 by magecarin]

How many deaths occurred in Vietnam before we the US left?
Shame that the only focus in Iraq is on death...ironic isn't it?
Maybe TerrorBet will take some hedgebets on "how many deaths will it take"?


seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
How many deaths occurred in Vietnam before we the US left?
Shame that the only focus in Iraq is on death...ironic isn't it?
Maybe TerrorBet will take some hedgebets on "how many deaths will it take"?


seekerof

by which u are trying to say that 500 dead US soldiers or 50 000 does not really matter that much ? U will simply stay as long as the public opinion in US will be ok with it ? Its kinda hard to focus on anything else when u hear how many ppl die today and yesterday etc is not it ? On what would u prefer to have focus instead of counting how many iraqi's people did americans "liberated" for good ?

[Edited on 7-4-2004 by magecarin]

Mycroft: "When the western media gets to report people being murdered, their bodies strung up as trophies, then the consensus among western citizenry shifts towards Let�s b!tch-slap those barbarians and teach them a lesson. On the other hand, if western media is reporting Iraqis organizing, forming political parties, working towards non-violent stability and forming a government that�s going to be stable, open and protective of the rights of its citizenry, then the pressure will be on the occupying powers to help them do this and then get out of the way asap! "

I think that's the funniest thing I've ever read anywhere. You're an optimist of the highest order.

"And if those troops are trying to facilitate the distribution of electricity and clean water, what will killing them accomplish?"

See I thought soldiers were driving around in tanks and performing "security", not helping lug water and get power.

"Would you rather see an Iraqi government that spends its resources improving the lives of its citizens, or making war?"

I would rather see an Iraqi government that has the power to make that choice without being pushed to one side or the other.

"How about the security that comes with having enough food to eat? My understanding is that among those killed were security forces guarding food shipments. "

You're wrong, they were mercenaries working for Blackwater USA, former Army and Navy bodyguards for some bigwigs. Nothing to do with guarding food shipments.

"However, in having invaded Iraq, it is also my opinion that has created an obligation on us. That obligation is not to leave until the area is stabilized, that Iraq has the foundations of a government capable of keeping order and rebuilding their economy."

What makes you think that the USA has ANY idea how to actually do any of this without any support from the rest of the world? That's delusional. They had NO plan for Occupation, they had no plans for the inevitable power struggle between Sunnis and Shias and it's showing.

"That you don�t seem to give any thought to what will happen in Iraq after the US leaves tell me that your concern is not really for the Iraqi citizens."

My concern is more for Iraqi civilians than for a bunch of soldiers totally out of their element. It's their home and they ought to be able to control their own country without interference from the United States.

jako

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by TrueLies]

Originally posted by TrueLies

Originally posted by outsider
Now I have to go and take a dump - anyone have some pages of the Koran I can borrow.

That is the most ignorant thing i've heard in a long time.
Grow up...
What the hell is your problem? Your the kind of arrogant, one track minded imbicile that the world hates. You've been brainwashed, and I pity you fools who actually believe that being over there is the right thing to do. Never have they been a thread to us, never will they be. IF we stop fcuking with them. Why is that the US feels entitled to go wherever they want and open fire on people who don't just shutup and take it?
And they are the terrorists?? mon dure senior, it's time to grow more then one perspective on word issues. You need to do alittlemore research other then turning on CNN.

I agree that what he said about the Koran was wrong...

That being said, it is YOU who are brainwashed - brainwashed with the usual anti-american BS. If you can't see that Saddam was evil, that he HAD USED WMD before, and that he would assuredly use them again given the chance, you need to get with it. The FACT is that the MAJORITY of Iraqi's are HAPPY that we ousted Saddam, HAPPY that we are there. It is the Minority who fight us, and these are the extremists that are a threat to the entire western world. You people need to realize that they hate EVERYTHING ABOUT FREEDOM. They HATE that they cannot force you to thier religion.
This goes for France, Canada and the rest of the countries with antiamerican sentiment. They focus on the US because we are the biggest kid on the block - the most obvious target.

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by TrueLies]

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by TrueLies]

Originally posted by magecarin
lunaville.org...

its over 600 as u can see, however my question was what would it take for US to leave iraq ? more dead soldiers, more international pressure (like that ever worked with US

), or are u guys there for good ? because do u honestly believe that any iraqi goverment will last more than few hours/days ? the people need dictator, they used to live like this for god knows how long

[Edited on 7-4-2004 by magecarin]

its only at 444.

Originally posted by CazMedia
Yes SWEAT, things could get ugly,
but a serious threat is what those extreamist understand and need...

our troops might have to get hard core...
war inst soft core to start with, but if you come at our troops and shoot weapons, then you are asking them to take you out...its simple really...and this seems to be working....why go door to door when we can just fence them in, make them crazy enough to show themselves and then eliminate those that are being agressive?

(sweat, on a sidebar, while i dont agree with the reasons they resist, does that mean they shouldnt resist because their faced with the overwhelming might of us forces? did you think i forgot our discussions on the idea of resistance?))

Things are about to blow up. I'm actually surprised there hasn't been a full-scale riot yet.

No, I know you'd never forget our arguement. This is a slightly different circumstance, at least in my view. The U.S. is far more powerful yes. However, they have one major weakness, and that is casualties. America is very pro-life, and they will not try something that'll cost them lots of lives. So actually resistance is not futile in this case, because the best way to defeat America is not to go toe-to-toe, but rather be a major pain in their asses. Piss them off, make them angry. If the Iraqis want to win, that's the way to do it.

So in this case, resistance is an order. But this is a special circumstance.

Casualties, huh? As I asked before, how many casualties were there in Vietnam? How long was the US there? How long did the US stay regardless of the mounting casualties? As it stands right now, out of the coalition, the US has sustained the most casualties....and is still there.

Iraq will be become self-governed and will do so through the help and assurances of the US...and if necessary, by the use of US forces.

Personally, I'm glad the crap is hitting the fan. Why? Because I would much rather see it happen as it is now, while we are heavily committed then say after the new government comes into power. This is not to say that the US will not be there and such, but that the timing of this is going to work in favor of the coalition, in the sense that most the 'trash/problems' can be dealt with now then after the fact.

Falluja was a hornets nest waiting to be bumped. The US and the coalition should have dealt with this sooner....it was a sore that has been festering and festering....like the zit that beckons to be popped, but you don't pop it because your mother told you that it would possibly leave a scar.....
Well, scar or no scar, the zit is going to be popped because now it has turned into a boil.


seekerof

[Edited on 7-4-2004 by Seekerof]

I am not in the military. I am also no longer a Federal Employee. But, I will say this:

as an arm-chair quarterback, I do not think the bombing should have stopped with the "shock-and-awe". We are at war. Be it for oil, George W. attempting to continue a blood feud, whatever, the United States should have told the Iraqi citizens: "We are coming in 72 hours, get your dishes & doillies, and get the he** out of Dodge".

And, then go to it.

I think among George W's BIG blunders was suggesting the "war was over", or whatever he said.

The Military must fight 100%. Either we are at war, or we are not. No more half-a**ed screw-ups.

I was mortified when I saw what happened to those bodies. (There was a chance they were still alive as the gasoline hit them, and the fire started).

Time to turn that whole area in one giant litter box.

I say this as someone who knows people stationed there.

Maybe I am speaking from the heart, and not using my head, but it is time to correct the situation.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Casualties, huh? As I asked before, how many casualties were there in Vietnam? How long was the US there? How long did the US stay regardless of the mounting casualties? As it stands right now, out of the coalition, the US has sustained the most casualties....and is still there.

Iraq will be become self-governed and will do so through the help and assurances of the US...and if necessary, by the use of US forces.

Personally, I'm glad the crap is hitting the fan. Why? Because I would much rather see it happen as it is now, while we are heavily committed then say after the new government comes into power. This is not to say that the US will not be there and such, but that the timing of this is going to work in favor of the coalition, in the sense that most the 'trash/problems' can be dealt with now then after the fact.

Falluja was a hornets nest waiting to be bumped. The US and the coalition should have dealt with this sooner....it was a sore that has been festering and festering....like the zit that beckons to be popped, but you don't pop it because your mother told you that it would possibly leave a scar.....
Well, scar or no scar, the zit is going to be popped because now it has turned into a boil.


seekerof

[Edited on 7-4-2004 by Seekerof]

And U.S. government #1!

Originally posted by Seekerof
Casualties, huh? As I asked before, how many casualties were there in Vietnam? How long was the US there? How long did the US stay regardless of the mounting casualties? As it stands right now, out of the coalition, the US has sustained the most casualties....and is still there.

Iraq will be become self-governed and will do so through the help and assurances of the US...and if necessary, by the use of US forces.

Personally, I'm glad the crap is hitting the fan. Why? Because I would much rather see it happen as it is now, while we are heavily committed then say after the new government comes into power. This is not to say that the US will not be there and such, but that the timing of this is going to work in favor of the coalition, in the sense that most the 'trash/problems' can be dealt with now then after the fact.

Falluja was a hornets nest waiting to be bumped. The US and the coalition should have dealt with this sooner....it was a sore that has been festering and festering....like the zit that beckons to be popped, but you don't pop it because your mother told you that it would possibly leave a scar.....
Well, scar or no scar, the zit is going to be popped because now it has turned into a boil.


seekerof

[Edited on 7-4-2004 by Seekerof]

Great point. Couldn't have said it better my self.

I remember hearing a quote from an Iraqi at the beginning of the war "we dont like Saddam but he is hard to get rid of,we welcome the Americans to get rid of him for us because the Americans will be easy to get rid of"
This is whats happening now and will only get worse. These people are proud and faithful and have the moral authority. The U.S. is losing everyday it spends more money with nothing to show but dead soldiers. The U.S. will eventually leave as defeated but with some puppet government in place. That government will be overthrown or ignored and everything back to normal.
The U.S. is and will be the big loser in this war.

What would it take for me as an American to say "get out of iraq"?
1...Mutual respect of nations in the region as to the rights to exist for both israel and palestine....
just stop the b.s. rehtoric over there, and get about the business of cleaning up your countries with out trying to wipe each other out...stop wasting resources to kill and disrupt each other, and try building something for your selves in your respective lands?

2...For 30 years ive seen on tv, radicle fundamentalist muslims chanting by the thousands "DEATH TO AMERICA", burning our presidents in effigy along with our flag, taking embassy hostages, and then just resorting to blowing them up...along with barracks of our troops, the Cole, and the trade center TWICE!

How about an apology from them for all of the hateful efforts against us? How about some reparations for the destruction and death we've already put up with? Mabey whipping their asses will let them know they were poking a big ass sleeping dragon?

The clreric's rhetoric that sparked this new round of fighting, pretty much said we were affraid to come and fight them, were affraid to take casualties, and DARED us to come in and get them....
I HOPE HE NOW GETS WHAT HE ASKED FOR....
I HOPE THEY SEE THAT WE WILL NO LONGER LET YOU SPIT ON US OR OUR WAY OF LIFE, AND MAKE AND CARRY OUT THREATS AGAINST US.

I have been being threatened from the middle east since i can remeber, (about 1975)...were you listening to these countries for the past 30 yrs? Who has been threatening whom?

I dont need to apologise as an American or for America...We can and have stood up for ourselves, both physically and ideologically...We have that right, and the fact of the matter is, as the worlds only super-power...we have the might to do this...We choose to try and be as "restrained" and humane as armed conflict will allow, even tho our enemy shows no such honor as warriors. but make no mistake
DONT TREAD ON ME!

We Americans generally dont want to have conflict, and before 9-11, would not have been wild about starting a war. But dont think that means if you make repeated threats, if you take hostile actions against us, and if you come to our house and destroy things, that we wont put down the remote control, get up off the couch, and slap the sh-t out of you and throw you out.

Enough of turn the other cheek, we've tried that for a few decades now....now if you not part of the solution, your part of the problem, and its time to take care of business!

To all of the USA armed forces out there now....
We love you, we support you, and we thank you for your nobel service and sacrifice.

Kick Ass!!! Take only initials, cause you aint got time for the full name....Fight with honor....keep your head down and be safe!

Your cause is noble, freedom will come to the iraqi people, and will be ensured here at home...and justice will be served!

Originally posted by Jakomo
outsider: Hey you make some good points.

Yeah! Beer IS my religion!

But it still is a little wrong to denigrate a perceived holy book, even if it's just to prove a point. I would never say "I crap on your Bible" to anyone.

Well, maybe to Seeker.

Yeah - you made some good points as well.

I'm glad you like beer, if you're ever in Seattle I'm buying. Discussions are always better over a beer.

Yes, that was not very nice and pretty insensitive of me. I'll try not to do that again - I apologize for my insensitivity.

Originally posted by magecarin

how many dead us soldiers would it take to get out of Iraq ?

I think the answer is not enough to get them out. If odds of survival were overwhelming then that might be an issue. The only decision is how much money do they have to spend in troops & equipment to get the job done.

In fact the resistance looks like it might be doing just the opposite of getting the US out of there quickly. I was afraid of that.
Rumsfeld: Troops May Stay Longer in Iraq

Originally posted by TrueLies

Originally posted by outsider
Now I have to go and take a dump - anyone have some pages of the Koran I can borrow.

That is the most ignorant thing i've heard in a long time.
Grow up...
What the hell is your problem? Your the kind of arrogant, one track minded imbicile that the world hates. You've been brainwashed, and I pity you fools who actually believe that being over there is the right thing to do.

It may have been insensitive, but it did get the response I was looking for at that time, so as far as I'm concerned the tool did the job.

Arrogant? Maybe sometimes, but at least if I was calling someone an imbecile I'd be smart enough to use a spell checker - imbecile.

I don't recall any of my posts that mentioned that I think we should be over there. What I said is now that were there we have to finish the job.


[Edited on 8-4-2004 by outsider]

CazMedia: That was beautiful, simply beautiful. Bra-vo!

Cazmedia - My pet belief on the whole problem with the Iraq war is this:

Americans are pretty ignorant about what really goes on in the world due to the government control of US media institutions. Because of this GWB has found it surprisingly easy to convince the US population that all anti-US groups in the Middle East are terrorists, and that the war in Iraq is a war of liberation, etc.. The lack of knowledge about a significant number of other cultures in the world means that US citizens don't understand the complex socio-political environment in the Middle East.

Iraq is not full of terrorists. Attacking Iraq was never about terrorism. Similarly it was never about WMD (all but proven now). Iraq was about US geopolitical influence in the Middle East. The US populace might not be able to see it, but everyone in the rest of the world (particularly the middle east) can.

That's why armed resistance has begun in Iraq, as many of us who were anti-war to begin with predicted. Until the US spends some time educating it's citizens about different cultures, and putting in place protection against government control of the media, there will be no improvement in the image of the US abroad, because the US will not change it's foreign policy until forced to do so by the US population.

Falluja is just another aspect of it. The US command has convinced itself it's fighting "terrorists" when it's really fighting Iraqis. The US populace is similarly convinced and so supports increased aggression. The Iraqi population is unconvinced and opposition to the coalition will grow as a result of this hard-edged approach. The big mistake of US foreign policy is believing that the US controls all media organisations, and not just the ones at home...