OPERATION VIGILLANT RESOLVE

Here comes the payback for the dragging atrocities....
we've surrounded the hot bed of extremeism in Iraq, and what happened? the bad guys came to us and started shooting....no need to go door to door...

We should keep a tight siege of this city, no one in/out unless totally searched....Yes this will be exposing our troops to harm, but guess what...IT WORKS....Its a magnet for the wacko's to ID themselves so we can take them out....bettrer an active siege than random patrols...lets bring the populace there into line by really making things tough there until the people turn in their weapons and the bad guys.

The cleric that started the mess with his anti iraq/usa rhetoric now wants them to not bother usa forces...too late....now you'll have to deal with EVERYONE in falluja being treated as the enemy.

[Edited on 5-4-2004 by John bull 1]

Originally posted by CazMedia
OPERATION VIGILLANT RESOLVE

Here comes the payback for the dragging atrocities....
we've surrounded the hot bed of extremeism in Iraq, and what happened? the bad guys came to us and started shooting....no need to go door to door...

We should keep a tight siege of this city, no one in/out unless totally searched....Yes this will be exposing our troops to harm, but guess what...IT WORKS....Its a magnet for the wacko's to ID themselves so we can take them out....bettrer an active siege than random patrols...lets bring the populace there into line by really making things tough there until the people turn in their weapons and the bad guys.

The cleric that started the mess with his anti iraq/usa rhetoric now wants them to not bother usa forces...too late....now you'll have to deal with EVERYONE in falluja being treated as the enemy.

[Edited on 5-4-2004 by John bull 1]

Dude, this is gonna get ugly.

If there's a full-scale riot, our forces may need to get hard-core.

Mr. Bushmaster oughta join the fight and say "We come in peace. Lay down your weapons, surrender, and go drill the oil, okay? Cool!"

[Edited on 5-4-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

If this draws out a lot of the bad guys it sounds like a great idea. Urban warfare is the most dangerous type, so if we can keep our troops out of the city, so much the better.

Yes SWEAT, things could get ugly,
but a serious threat is what those extreamist understand and need...

our troops might have to get hard core...
war inst soft core to start with, but if you come at our troops and shoot weapons, then you are asking them to take you out...its simple really...and this seems to be working....why go door to door when we can just fence them in, make them crazy enough to show themselves and then eliminate those that are being agressive?

(sweat, on a sidebar, while i dont agree with the reasons they resist, does that mean they shouldnt resist because their faced with the overwhelming might of us forces? did you think i forgot our discussions on the idea of resistance?))

If you think that the U.S. can fix things by "clamping down" on Fallujah, you're not really thinking too straight.

"Clamping down" on extremists (especially religious extremists) can only cause MORE violence and hatred towards the USA. Meeting violence with violence is fookin prehistoric and it doesn't WORK (ask an Israeli or Palestinian). You'd figure the US would know this, but I suppose the Pentagon has good advisors (from Lockheed, Carlyle, United Defense, Northrop-Grunman and other military "contributors" to adminstration coffers).

Again, this is THEIR country, if they want to dismember FOREIGN INVADERS and parade around the streets with their guts as garters, they can. Islam might frown upon it, but hey, again, it's their home. The US is unwelcome, even hated. You have no right to be there under international law, capiche?

Whether or not you understand WHY, in your arrogance, is not the point. If you keep pushing and pushing, there will be more animosity and more violence toward the US, that's the bottom line.

26 million Iraqis? Against 130,000 US troops?

Piss off more Iraqi civilians, and the American Army in Iraq is done for.

You can't win against someone who is more than willing to throw their life away in order to kill you. YOU CAN'T.

None of you seem to give a whit for the fact that people are dying in DOZENS every day because of this travesty. Hopefully the US doesn't go in and start massacring, because it'll end up as the entire Muslim world against the US, and in that case, your asses are grass.


jako

I wouldn't even send troops in, Just bombs and lots of them, level the entire city !

Originally posted by Jakomo
If you think that the U.S. can fix things by "clamping down" on Fallujah, you're not really thinking too straight.


What do you suggest, that the US allow that type of behavior to continue, so that everyone else gets the idea they can join in dragging bodies in the streets and nothing will happen? The current response had to be done. Those that oppose the US only have to wait it out- exposing themselves at this point shows their ignorance.


"Clamping down" on extremists (especially religious extremists) can only cause MORE violence and hatred towards the USA. Meeting violence with violence is fookin prehistoric and it doesn't WORK (ask an Israeli or Palestinian). You'd figure the US would know this, but I suppose the Pentagon has good advisors (from Lockheed, Carlyle, United Defense, Northrop-Grunman and other military "contributors" to adminstration coffers).

Again, this is THEIR country, if they want to dismember FOREIGN INVADERS and parade around the streets with their guts as garters, they can. Islam might frown upon it, but hey, again, it's their home. The US is unwelcome, even hated. You have no right to be there under international law, capiche?

Maybe the US shouldn't be there, but the fact is they are there and THEY OWN IRAQ until they decide to leave. If the US wants to go after the Cro-Magnon paraders they can because the US forces are BIGGER, STRONGER, FASTER, & clearly smarter then those who are not smart enough to just wait until the US pulls out, capiche?

Whether or not you understand WHY, in your arrogance, is not the point. If you keep pushing and pushing, there will be more animosity and more violence toward the US, that's the bottom line.

26 million Iraqis? Against 130,000 US troops?

Piss off more Iraqi civilians, and the American Army in Iraq is done for.

Oh please spare me - it has nothing to do with numbers. If it came to all out war again the troops would pull back & the missles would fly - bottom line

You can't win against someone who is more than willing to throw their life away in order to kill you. YOU CAN'T.

Yes, everyone is aware of the suicide bombers, no doubt people who have nothing to lose are the most dangerous.

None of you seem to give a whit for the fact that people are dying in DOZENS every day because of this travesty. Hopefully the US doesn't go in and start massacring, because it'll end up as the entire Muslim world against the US, and in that case, your asses are grass.

jako

I do give a whit & I would like it to stop and I hope the US troops don't massacre the wrong people. If the Muslime world goes up against the the US the US will be sunbathing on the grass while the Muslime world will be buried under a layer of radioactive glass.

Now I have to go and take a dump - anyone have some pages of the Koran I can borrow.


[Edited on 6-4-2004 by outsider]

Outsider: "Maybe the US shouldn't be there, but the fact is they are there and THEY OWN IRAQ until they decide to leave. If the US wants to go after the Cro-Magnon paraders they can because the US forces are BIGGER, STRONGER, FASTER, & clearly smarter then those who are not smart enough to just wait until the US pulls out, capiche?"

They OWN Iraq? Haha, good one. Nice to own a place that's occupants want you dead. Good one! if anyone owns Iraq it's Halliburton, not the US Army. Nice try though.

"because the US forces are BIGGER, STRONGER, FASTER, & clearly smarter"

Wrong, wrong, wrong and WRONG. They were supposedly ALL THESE THINGS in Vietnam and yet you still got your asses handed to you by a bunch of rice-paddy farmers and donkey-cart drivers. Name me a war of insurgency that has been won by the invaders. Go on.

"Oh please spare me - it has nothing to do with numbers. If it came to all out war again the troops would pull back & the missles would fly."

They would pull back and let fly with missiles because they would be OUTNUMBERED. So I'm right, you're clearly wrong, let's move on.

"I do give a whit & I would like it to stop and I hope the US troops don't massacre the wrong people. If the Muslime world goes up against the the US the US will be sunbathing on the grass whilel the Muslime world will be buried under a layer of radioactive glass. "

And the US would be guilty of a war crime of unimaginable magnitude. They would never nuke the Middle East, though, what about the oil?

The Muslim world would wipe your little country off the planet. How many Americans? 286 million? How many Muslims? Go on, tell me.

"Now I have to go and take a dump - anyone have some pages of the Koran I can borrow. "

Saaaaay, isn't that some kind of terrible insult to people's religions? If I said the same about the Bible I would be censured or even banned.

What say you, Mods, is this the type of thing we're allowed to do? Impugn people's religions and holy texts? Lemme know because I guess I'll start to really cut loose on the insults.

jako

Originally posted by Jakomo
Meeting violence with violence is fookin prehistoric and it doesn't WORK (ask an Israeli or Palestinian). You'd figure the US would know this, but I suppose the Pentagon has good advisors (from Lockheed, Carlyle, United Defense, Northrop-Grunman and other military "contributors" to adminstration coffers).

and…

Originally posted by Jakomo
Again, this is THEIR country, if they want to dismember FOREIGN INVADERS and parade around the streets with their guts as garters, they can.

So meeting violence with violence is bad when it’s done by Western Civilization, but it’s understandable, natural and okay when it’s done by Arabs? Don’t you see this as a contradiction?

Mycroft: "So meeting violence with violence is bad when it’s done by Western Civilization, but it’s understandable, natural and okay when it’s done by Arabs? Don’t you see this as a contradiction"

No, I don't. Do the Iraqis (don't just call them Arabs, they are Iraqis) actually have any other avenues of resistance? When they protest in numbers they get shot at.

Do they start a petition? Haha.

Do they complain to their government? Like send a letter to Paul Bremer?

Should they complain to the UN? Phone Kofi Annan?

The Iraqis have one way of getting U.S. soldiers out of Iraq. Kill them. That's the only option that your government has given them.

The Iraqi resistance is REACTIVE. They react to what has been done to them (illegally invaded and illegally occupied and "collateral damaged" to the tune of over 10,000 Iraqi civilians). They didn't ask for an invasion and they definitely didn't ask to be occupied by the Americans. And they're not strictly organized, like the US Army.

With no government, hardly any police, and no security, this is the only option open to them (obviously not dismemberment and public atrocities, but violence nonetheless).

While this was inexcusable, was in not inevitable? Is anyone really surprised that these people got killed? Granted the ferocity is suprising, but this is happening every day.

There are some peaceful Iraqis who actually support the US.

They are apparently targets too, now. So things are only going to get worse before they get better.

I don't support killing anyone, for any reason, but I DO allow myself to try and understand WHY. And I think I do understand, though I wish it would stop.

And it would. If the US left.

Originally posted by Jakomo
No, I don't. Do the Iraqis (don't just call them Arabs, they are Iraqis) actually have any other avenues of resistance? When they protest in numbers they get shot at. I use the more generic term because your views go beyond just Iraq.

Do they start a petition? Haha. And the reason you laugh at this is…? How do you think it would play in Western Media if they did circulate petitions?

Do they complain to their government? Like send a letter to Paul Bremer?

Should they complain to the UN? Phone Kofi Annan? Do you think he would be unsympathetic?

The Iraqis have one way of getting U.S. soldiers out of Iraq. Kill them. That's the only option that your government has given them. That seems to be their first choice of options, but is it their only choice? It seems to me that facilitating stability would be faster.

The Iraqi resistance is REACTIVE. They react to what has been done to them (illegally invaded and illegally occupied and "collateral damaged" to the tune of over 10,000 Iraqi civilians). They didn't ask for an invasion and they definitely didn't ask to be occupied by the Americans. And they're not strictly organized, like the US Army. Reactive is a problem. Pro-active would be to start building support for a political party that doesn’t depend on violence to get their point across. You know, democracy.

With no government, hardly any police, and no security, this is the only option open to them (obviously not dismemberment and public atrocities, but violence nonetheless).Wasn’t it security that was killed?

While this was inexcusable, was in not inevitable? Is anyone really surprised that these people got killed? Granted the ferocity is suprising, but this is happening every day. Inevitable? You could argue that given the culture we’re dealing with. But as long as you continue to apologize for it you not only perpetuate the problem, but you sell the Arab people short. As long as nobody expects civilized behavior, they will never get civilized behavior.

There are some peaceful Iraqis who actually support the US.

They are apparently targets too, now. So things are only going to get worse before they get better.

I don't support killing anyone, for any reason, but I DO allow myself to try and understand WHY. And I think I do understand, though I wish it would stop.

And it would. If the US left. Would it? Or would there be an even more violent civil war? Personally, I’m not willing to be so cavalier with the lives of Iraqis.

[Edited on 6-4-2004 by Mycroft]

Originally posted by Jakomo

Wrong, wrong, wrong and WRONG. They were supposedly ALL THESE THINGS in Vietnam and yet you still got your asses handed to you by a bunch of rice-paddy farmers and donkey-cart drivers. Name me a war of insurgency that has been won by the invaders. Go on.

Uh oh here we go with the Vietnam thread again, I'll pass & let the Vietnam experts debate that as it was before my time.

They would pull back and let fly with missiles because they would be OUTNUMBERED. So I'm right, you're clearly wrong, let's move on.

I think the point I was making is Yes you are correct the US is outnumbered, but the outcome wouldn't be determined by numbers of people it would be determined by who owns the missles, so in that respect I'm right and your wrong. The final outcome is what were talking about right?

"I do give a whit & I would like it to stop and I hope the US troops don't massacre the wrong people. If the Muslime world goes up against the the US the US will be sunbathing on the grass whilel the Muslime world will be buried under a layer of radioactive glass. "

And the US would be guilty of a war crime of unimaginable magnitude.
Yes, they would. I'm glad we agree on something.

They would never nuke the Middle East, though, what about the oil?

I don't think that will ever happen even though the possibility exists. I made the statement responding to the "your asses are grass" statement reminding you that if our asses were looking like they were going to be grass we'd have to consider making glass. Oil is probably what started this crap, had their been no oil we'd have never gone there and they'd still be living in tents & using spears to fight with.

The Muslim world would wipe your little country off the planet. How many Americans? 286 million? How many Muslims? Go on, tell me.

I don't know the numbers, nor do I know what difference it makes in this disscussion. It wouldn't suprise me if we all got wiped off the planet, because of brainwashed religous people who think everyway other than their way is wrong.

Saaaaay, isn't that some kind of terrible insult to people's religions? If I said the same about the Bible I would be censured or even banned.

Let me tell ya, I feel relieved and I even read it first. I'll have to get me some pages of the bible for my next trip to the john, I think the koran is softer though.

What say you, Mods, is this the type of thing we're allowed to do? Impugn people's religions and holy texts? Lemme know because I guess I'll start to really cut loose on the insults.

jako

I wasn't trying to insult you I was just proving a point. Religion screws people up so much that a piece of paper is considered more important than human life. Can I buy you a beer jako?

[Edited on 6-4-2004 by outsider]

Mycroft: "And the reason you laugh at this is…? How do you think it would play in Western Media if they did circulate petitions?"

Errr, wtf does Western Media have to do with this? The Iraqis are being militarily occupied, their papers censored, their homes searched and their people killed for PROTESTING. The Western Media is pliant and useless. If every single Iraqi in Iraq signed a petition to get US troops out of their country, and sent it to every network, do you HONESTLY think the Occupation Authority would say "Okay boys let's pack it in". Laughable.

"Do you think he [Kofi Annan] would be unsympathetic?"

No, but the US would just veto anything he asked. Look it up, the US has a huge history of vetoing.

" That seems to be their first choice of options, but is it their only choice? It seems to me that facilitating stability would be faster."

LOL that's rich. How about YOU try "facilitating stability" when you have 130,000 foreign troops who don't even speak your language stopping you at checkpoints, imposing curfews and disbanding your army. Try having little electricity, little clean water and NO JOB! Get a grip, man, the United States says their MAIN PURPOSE IN IRAQ is to facilitate stability and they suck at it. Don't blame the Iraqis, blame your administration for the lack of stability.

"Reactive is a problem. Pro-active would be to start building support for a political party that doesn’t depend on violence to get their point across. You know, democracy."

Another great one. Why CAN'T they support a political party that espouses violence, if it's not violence against themselves? Would that be, say, DEMOCRATIC. They should be able to choose WHOEVER they want to lead the country, but the US is instead "installing" government officials. I don't know if you're smart enough to realize it, but I know most of the world recognizes THAT as installing a puppet government that is subservient to the US.

"Wasn’t it security that was killed?"

Huh? I'm talking about the security that one has that when you leave your house, you're fairly certain you won't be attacked by bandits or criminals or trigger-happy troops. You know, basic security.

"Inevitable? You could argue that given the culture we’re dealing with. But as long as you continue to apologize for it you not only perpetuate the problem, but you sell the Arab people short. As long as nobody expects civilized behavior, they will never get civilized behavior."

Since US troops and civilians are being killed every single day, then yes, this was inevitable as in "incapable of being avoided". This has less to do with Iraqi culture (NOT Arab, Iraqi) than it does with a military occupation of an unwilling population. How do you not see that?

"Would it? Or would there be an even more violent civil war? Personally, I’m not willing to be so cavalier with the lives of Iraqis."

Well nothing you've said or written on this site that I've ever read demonstrates that. Nothing.

jako

outsider: Hey you make some good points.

"I think the point I was making is Yes you are correct the US is outnumbered, but the outcome wouldn't be determined by numbers of people it would be determined by who owns the missles, so in that respect I'm right and your wrong. The final outcome is what were talking about right? "

Yeah, you're right. Solid argument. But I don't think you can win a war by just bombing the crap out of everything and then just clearing away all the corpses and moving in.

"I wasn't trying to insult you I was just proving a point. Religion screws people up so much that a piece of paper is considered more important than human life. Can I buy you a beer jako?"

Yeah! Beer IS my religion!

But it still is a little wrong to denigrate a perceived holy book, even if it's just to prove a point. I would never say "I crap on your Bible" to anyone.

Well, maybe to Seeker.

Originally posted by Jakomo
Errr, wtf does Western Media have to do with this? The Iraqis are being militarily occupied, their papers censored, their homes searched and their people killed for PROTESTING. The Western Media is pliant and useless. If every single Iraqi in Iraq signed a petition to get US troops out of their country, and sent it to every network, do you HONESTLY think the Occupation Authority would say "Okay boys let's pack it in". Laughable.

When the western media gets to report people being murdered, their bodies strung up as trophies, then the consensus among western citizenry shifts towards Let’s b!tch-slap those barbarians and teach them a lesson. On the other hand, if western media is reporting Iraqis organizing, forming political parties, working towards non-violent stability and forming a government that’s going to be stable, open and protective of the rights of its citizenry, then the pressure will be on the occupying powers to help them do this and then get out of the way asap!

Your focus on the short-term goal of getting the US out of there is somewhat narrow-minded. The real issue, and the issue that should concern Iraqis the most, is what happens after.

Originally posted by Jakomo
LOL that's rich. How about YOU try "facilitating stability" when you have 130,000 foreign troops who don't even speak your language stopping you at checkpoints, imposing curfews and disbanding your army. Try having little electricity, little clean water and NO JOB! Get a grip, man, the United States says their MAIN PURPOSE IN IRAQ is to facilitate stability and they suck at it. Don't blame the Iraqis, blame your administration for the lack of stability.

And if those troops are trying to facilitate the distribution of electricity and clean water, what will killing them accomplish? If they were pulled out today, what would fill that power vacuum and how good would it be at distributing electricity and clean water? If there were further demonstrations and violence directed against this new entity, how do you imagine it would respond?

Originally posted by Jakomo
Another great one. Why CAN'T they support a political party that espouses violence, if it's not violence against themselves? Would that be, say, DEMOCRATIC. They should be able to choose WHOEVER they want to lead the country, but the US is instead "installing" government officials. I don't know if you're smart enough to realize it, but I know most of the world recognizes THAT as installing a puppet government that is subservient to the US.

Only time will tell what sort of government Iraq will end up with, but I have to point out the hypocrisy here. Are you against violence or not? Would you rather see an Iraqi government that spends its resources improving the lives of its citizens, or making war?

And for the record, when I say building support for a political party that doesn’t depend on violence to get their point across. I mean violence against Iraqis.

Originally posted by Jakomo
Huh? I'm talking about the security that one has that when you leave your house, you're fairly certain you won't be attacked by bandits or criminals or trigger-happy troops. You know, basic security.

How about the security that comes with having enough food to eat? My understanding is that among those killed were security forces guarding food shipments.

Originally posted by Jakomo
Since US troops and civilians are being killed every single day, then yes, this was inevitable as in "incapable of being avoided". This has less to do with Iraqi culture (NOT Arab, Iraqi) than it does with a military occupation of an unwilling population. How do you not see that?

You said yourself there are peaceful Iraqis who support the US. I think it’s interesting that even you chose the adjective peaceful to describe them.

Originally posted by Jakomo
Well nothing you've said or written on this site that I've ever read demonstrates that. Nothing.

Then you haven’t been paying attention. Let me make it clear for you now.

I did not support the war against Iraq. It is my opinion that the Bush administration lied about our reasons for doing it, and I think it was obvious from the beginning.

However, in having invaded Iraq, it is also my opinion that has created an obligation on us. That obligation is not to leave until the area is stabilized, that Iraq has the foundations of a government capable of keeping order and rebuilding their economy. While invading was arguably bad, invading and then leaving, standing by and just watching as Iraqi factions struggle for power violently would be even worse. If they also create a government that would protect the civil rights of its citizenry, that would be a nice bonus.

That you don’t seem to give any thought to what will happen in Iraq after the US leaves tell me that your concern is not really for the Iraqi citizens.

Chanting:

BURN

IT

DOWN!

BURN

IT

DOWN!

Originally posted by Mycroft

I did not support the war against Iraq. It is my opinion that the Bush administration lied about our reasons for doing it, and I think it was obvious from the beginning.

However, in having invaded Iraq, it is also my opinion that has created an obligation on us. That obligation is not to leave until the area is stabilized, that Iraq has the foundations of a government capable of keeping order and rebuilding their economy. While invading was arguably bad, invading and then leaving, standing by and just watching as Iraqi factions struggle for power violently would be even worse. If they also create a government that would protect the civil rights of its citizenry, that would be a nice bonus.

That you don’t seem to give any thought to what will happen in Iraq after the US leaves tell me that your concern is not really for the Iraqi citizens.

VERY WELL SAID!!!

I agree with you completely.

What I see here is another person who has found a forum to bash America once again. I think that retaliation is the option that we need to take in this situation. What would the Iraqi proplr do if we killed 4 iraqi citizens then brought them to an american base and dragged them around while having a big party and celebrating and then dismembering the bodies to spread their entrails everywhere while just having a good ol' time. I think that they would like to retaliate just a little bit. I think that Saddam was a bad person(as does most of America), and I think that he had to go, but it WAS wrong to lie about the intelligence to start the war. The Iraqi people were living under a barbaric, cruel, evil man that got his jollies off of killing innocent people, the same goes for his sons. Now before someone goes on about the whole Muslim-Christian thing, I am a strong, STRONG beliver that this is NOT a war against Islam, but a war against a facist leader to free the opressed people of his country. I have no problems with Muslims, none what so ever. So what I don't get is why some people are so convinced that this is a war against Islam. If it's a war for anything, I'd think that it's for oil, cause that's pretty much the only US intrest in Iraq. Why people keep on going on about this whole Christanity vs. Islam thing is beyond me.

[Edited on 4-7-2004 by muzz]

well since moderator deleted my new topic.... I guess too anti american lol let me post it here... american democracy ... ? )


how many dead us soldiers would it take to get out of iraq ?
So far its about 600 and still counting, would the 1000 be the magic number or it does not really matter how many us soldiers will die ? It seems like the administration could care less, but hopefully bush will lose the election and situation will change ? I mean what exactly is US trying to accomplish in Iraq ? Bring them US democracy (although some might argue that US is much closer to police state than to democratic society) ? Why is so hard to understand that Iraqi people are not used to have democracy and that it simply would not work for them, is there any limit to US arrogance or does it always have to be everything the US way ? what were the reasons why US felt it was so necessary to have another war after afghanistan ? Can anyone remember because I did not see for quite some time any articles about WMD and that used to be the word of the year in every newspaper, suddenly nobody cares that the war was a LIE from day 1 ? Oh well since US is there lets finish what they started... blah blah... no since u are there and should NOT be there u should get out ASAP and on your way out apologize to iraqi people for attacking souvereign state, saddam was baad, oh yeah lol and how many bad dictators is at this very moment in africa about whom u could care less hmm ? Point is that this was not your country and u had absolutely 0 right to start a war. But hey I forgot ) Iraq was a threat to your national security., right ? As for mr Bush, is not it amazing that american people were ready to send down clinton because he F*** with somebody beside his wife which btw did NOT kill anybody and now we got mr perfect whose actions and his personal vendeta vs Saddam are directly responsible for hunderds of lives (thousands if u count iraqis... oh wait.. those dont count, sorry) and us ppl have they mouth shut ? Are you guys really THAT stupid that u still believe the lies which u hear day by day on tv ? eveything is going fine, we are doing great, iraqi loves us, blah blah and bodies are pilling up, great job mr """president""
p.s. I wonder if he will manage to steal this election as he did with last one