Auto Unions Refuse to Take Pay, Benefit Cuts

reply to post by jsobecky


Let me quote a statement you made on the page 2 post.

So it can, and has, been done. Maybe not for the retired people, but for all the current work force and those laid off with a certain minimum number of years of service, yes it can.

If you read my entire post to you, you would see that they went back on their word to pay for our medical, AFTER I had accepted the buyout package. Seven years later, when they reneged on the buyout package, I found out that there is no law that stops companies from dropping medical coverage to retirees, EVEN AFTER giving the retirees the promise in writing. As unbelievable as that sounds, Congress had the chance to pass such a law, and it was constantly sent to a slow death in committee.

Now, I ask you, if YOUR employer had given you a buyout, and in writing stated that they would cover YOUR medical costs as a retiree, and YOU accepted that offer, made decisions based upon that, and then when you are of retirement age, AND you have retired, you find that they changed it, WOULD YOU say they did the right thing? Your response to me was extremely callous. My wife and I are spending most of our retirement income on medical coverage, with very little left for things, and at our age, it is impossible to get a job with medical coverage, especially with pre-existing conditions.

HR13322 is the bill which would have prevented this from happening. However, NOT one Republican sponsored the bill, although it had 95 Democrat sponsors. The Republicans killed it in committee every year that it came up.

These cuts and reductions are possible because unlike pensions, retiree healthcare is generally not protected by the federal Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA). As a result, since the 1990’s, companies have increasingly cut benefits that they had promised to workers during their retirement - leaving up to 10 million retirees without the full health benefits that they earned through a career of hard work.

H.R. 1322 would stop profitable companies from increasing their profits by cutting the hard-earned health benefits of retirees.

Specifically, this legislation will:

1. Prohibit group health plans from making post-retirement reductions in retiree benefits;
2. Require plans to adopt provisions barring post-retirement cuts in retiree health benefits;
3. Require employers to restore benefits reduced after retirement;
4. Provide an exemption for employers who are unable to restore benefits because they would experience substantial business hardship, as determined by the Secretary of Labor; and,
5. Create a loan guarantee program to assist employers in restoring retiree health benefits.

source:www.house.gov...

Now, if you don't respect me, that is fine, because neither did my company, who I gave 24 good years to, nor my government, that I had never let down.

reply to post by jsobecky


Right, and blowing it all out of proportion to the other influences on the situation while claiming to be bringing the truth backed up with facts.

Originally posted by jsobecky
reply to post by Icarus Rising

 

I'm addressing one particular aspect of the problem with Detroit. If you want to moan about trade policy, start a thread on it. Don't piss all over this thread.

You cant talk about one without talking about the other now can you? Thats like starting a thread saying "Bank employees refuse to take pay and benefit cuts" as if to imply they are the reason the banking industry is in shambles. Nice try.

Originally posted by BlueTriangle

This isn't a "sacrifice". These workers are working for extremely bloated wages. They are making 2-3 times what they should be. Imagine what kind of state the auto industry could be in if they were paying fair wages and could actually compete against the foreign companies.

Some of us go to years of schooling and spend a few weeks a year updating our knowledge and we still don't make this kind of money. Others walk right out of high school into a $150k a year job because they have a friend in the UAW. The unions have needed oversight for years and it's showing right now.

The auto workers make $150k a year? LOL better check your math buddy they make $28.12 an hour + Benefits. That is far from $150k per year in fact in my estimates its only around $50k per year which is NOT that much more than what the Japanese are making.

Originally posted by jsobecky
reply to post by marg6043

 

So, marg, then explain why Toyota is succeeding and GM is failing.

Are you saying Toyota workers are not middle class?

Toyota is succeeding and GM not because of MANAGEMENT!!!! They both pay their workers about the same the only difference is Toyota is ahead of the curve on quality, technology, safety, among other features. They are poorly designed and really dont even compete with Toyota or Lexus. That is not the Unions fault that is management. The Union just puts the crap together that is thrown at them.

reply to post by mybigunit


And they will more than likely get screwed out of their medical and retirement benefits just like all the airline employees. Pensions are a scam. When it comes time to pay, the company rolls over and hands off to the feds for pennies on the dollar, if that. IRAs and 401k plans have turned out to be the same scam in different packaging, with the fat cats and fund managers skimming off the top and bailing before the bottom falls out. That is the real American way. The rest is just propaganda, I mean truth backed up with facts.

I will admit I haven't read through every post yet. But as I am reading this something occured to me. We will all admit that the generations before us were maybe not greedy, (If someone offered me a huge retirement pension I wouldn't turn them down, and I doubt most of you would either) but someone earlier in the thread asked about solutions. So I have one, well I think I do anyway,

1. We bail them out, wait for it...

2. The big 3 closes their doors for up to two years, this will cut down on production costs and overheads

3. Slash prices on all remaining inventories, new vehicles cut by 40-50%, and comparable cuts to used vehicles

4. Merge the three into 1 big Auto company. Now you have all R&D developers under 1 roof to give the Americans the best all around vehicles.

5. Yes some plants will close, but the majority of them could stay open, and the majority of the people could remain employed, but for less money. When the company prospers, so does the employees.

6. Since you are down to one company, the union will have significantly less power to cripple the auto industry, but still have enough to ensure they (the workers) are still being taken care of.

I figured 2 years of closing their doors would give time for the merger to go through, a restructuring of the company to go through and new ideas for vehicles Americans can not only afford, but will buy. What is the use of making cars people can't afford, or buy. You could even bring the internet in and do surveys online. Hell you can charge like $10 bucks per survey and here from the people on what they are looking for. You don't even have to have everyone fall under a Ford umbrella. You can still have your Chevies, Pontiacs, Fords, and Chryslers. It will also make buying parts easier because it is all one company. I know about the monopoly thing, but one company is better than no company. With 2 years, you can give each car or brand it's own unique style so that way all the new cars don't look the same.

What do you guys think, plausible?

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by mybigunit

 

And they will more than likely get screwed out of their medical and retirement benefits just like all the airline employees. Pensions are a scam. When it comes time to pay, the company rolls over and hands off to the feds for pennies on the dollar, if that. IRAs and 401k plans have turned out to be the same scam in different packaging, with the fat cats and fund managers skimming off the top and bailing before the bottom falls out. That is the real American way. The rest is just propaganda, I mean truth backed up with facts.

They are a scam. I tell everyone when they negotiate pay to never negotiate pension. 80% of the time they do not come to fruition. The benefits are a contract between people who have put their time in and the company. I find it ironic that senators are telling people to cut their benefits and pensions with a straight face while getting ALL of their government cheese even though they have ran this country into the freaking ground. Disgusting and Hypocrites.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


And nothing in my posts said that I agreed with what happened to you or others. I merely stated what can, and has, happened.

You took that and ran with it to say that I agreed with them and was defending "them".

Untrue and uncalled for. It's getting more and more difficult to hold a conversation on ATS without people resorting to gang tactics.

Examine what I say, and gauge whether it is true. But don't put words in my mouth, or pretend that you know my motivations. I don't beat around the bush; if I agree or disagree, I'll say so. I don't play word games.

reply to post by stinger94


I appreciate the fact that you are looking forward and offering solutions, not looking backward and assigning blame. Good post.

Not sure how temporary closure, then consolidation and monopolization of the US auto industry would play out, but you are thinking ahead, and that's a start.

Originally posted by unruly1
Unions my friends have been the key to literally driving our dollars to China!
If we continue to be stubborn and not take notice that the high wages in North America are making us extinct as a producing people we will be doomed. I do believe in made in North America, but come on we have to also be competitive in the world market.

Unions are the reason we ship jobs over seas eh? Not because China is willing to work for $2 an hour and people here just want a living wage? It isnt greed at the top who want to grow the bottom line so they can get a few more million dollars a year? I recommend you look into Henry Ford and Fordism before you make comments like that. Henry Ford who MADE Ford what it is would be disgusted at how they are ran today.

good post and I like it because it offers up a solution
We just all have to be a little more protectionist of our livelyhoods and keep it made in North America but not at any cost. Thats a good start.

post by stinger94

Originally posted by kosmicjack
Sorry if this has already been said by some very smart ATS member, but I wonder if the executives would be willing to bring their salary, benefits and bonus structure more in-line with Asian automakers?

Elizabeth Warren, A Harvard economist, made a very good case for the cause of the the collapse of the middle class. Essentially, it's two-income families.

Too many people in the work-force puts downward pressure on wages, particularly hurting blue-collar, working class employees, but really ALL employees across the board. The literal and intrinsic expenses associated with two-incomes outweigh the wages and benefits. This is most clearly seen in the auto-industry.

If I find the link again I'll post it.

Oh no way would the Execs of Any industry here in America go to a Japanese style pay system. They can only make 10x their highest paid employee. That means they would actually have to pay their employees well to get that big fat paycheck and they do pay their peeps well.

reply to post by mikellmikell


$30 per hour with benefits might equate to $42 per hour including benefits $30 per hour equates to a standard day of $240 , equating to $1200 per week or $4800 per month (based on a 40 hr per week schedule)........Now, what internal or external (world) skills deserve $4800 per month? UAW, please tell us....Because, many with advanced degrees, knowledge and skills, cannot find anything close to this.....

$57000 per year without overtime for a "manual worker" that monitors robotic machinery????????

Solutions are forced reorg, cancellation of contracts, and a realistic business model, with employee pay based upon revenues and profits, not a forced contract....Have I been a union member? yes, and I have taken pay cuts to help my company survive....

Thanks, it wasn't the best forward thinking answer, but I figured instead of me complaining about it, why not give a best guess.

I'm not sure how it would play out either, but 1 is better than none and relying only on imports. It also doesn't stop new auto companies from coming forward. (Tucker anyone?) It isn't easy being the new kid in town, especially when you are a startup company. I always thought and still think GM's Saturn is a great addition. If it was a separate company it may actually be a profitable one. My opinion of course.

Consolidating everything I believe would mean that more profit could be turned up, and the company would bleed less money out. There are other autos so if the one company decides to get greedy and start screwing americans again, then they will go under and Americans will still have otehr cars to choose from but they won't be American cars.

Originally posted by habu71
reply to post by mikellmikell

 

$30 per hour with benefits might equate to $42 per hour including benefits $30 per hour equates to a standard day of $240 , equating to $1200 per week or $4800 per month (based on a 40 hr per week schedule)........Now, what internal or external (world) skills deserve $4800 per month? UAW, please tell us....Because, many with advanced degrees, knowledge and skills, cannot find anything close to this.....

$57000 per year without overtime for a "manual worker" that monitors robotic machinery????????

Lets see the college degree people go work there then. They wont because they want desk jobs. Im sorry but there are costs to make things and making things is what this country needs to start doing and not pushing paper from a desk. Dont blame unions for trying to keep a middle class here in America blame the big corporations who ship college degree jobs over the India because they can give you educated people at a discount just like China give laborers at a discount.

reply to post by mybigunit

Originally posted by mybigunit
Toyota is succeeding and GM not because of MANAGEMENT!!!! They both pay their workers about the same the only difference is Toyota is ahead of the curve on quality, technology, safety, among other features. They are poorly designed and really dont even compete with Toyota or Lexus. That is not the Unions fault that is management. The Union just puts the crap together that is thrown at them.

Yep, management is responsible for creating and implementing the business model.

And a business model that costs you twice what it costs your competitors while you build and try to sell pieces of crap is bound to fail.

It's time to get Back to the drawing board on that business model, muppets.

Originally posted by habu71
reply to post by mikellmikell

 

$30 per hour with benefits might equate to $42 per hour including benefits $30 per hour equates to a standard day of $240 , equating to $1200 per week or $4800 per month (based on a 40 hr per week schedule)........Now, what internal or external (world) skills deserve $4800 per month? UAW, please tell us....Because, many with advanced degrees, knowledge and skills, cannot find anything close to this.....

$57000 per year without overtime for a "manual worker" that monitors robotic machinery????????

Citigroup sent $2.5 BILLION of it straight to India, to Ratan Tata.
This pays the India domociled replacement workers - replacements for the 53,000 US citizens either fired or about to be fired by Citigroup.

www.businessweek.com... chan=globalbiz_asia+index+page_technology

image source: farm1.static.flickr.com...

Ratan Tata gets $2.5 Billion US tax dollars!

reply to post by jsobecky
I guess we will see how things go when the chinese buy out one or all of the big three.If they think Reagan was a unionbuster they aint seen nuthin yet!