You think you have rights?

Americans losing more rights and the government breathing heavier and heavier down there neck is not knew to me, but.
But i fail to see why a country must treat its people like that!! It is so backwards to me that i con not think of a reason WHY!?
Why must a government treat its citizens like that?? And whom is benefiting from it?

What happened to the great American dream and all its freedoms?? Or was it just all a dream and is it time to wake up.....

firstly this thread has been severely hijacked.

Secondly, to the person speaking of can and should.....we are stating how it IS, and the IS is that americans are regularly being abused for exercising their so called "rights"

And lastly, to the person stating that bit about We forming human rights.... It sounded as if you were crediting the US with the original idea of human rights, and i certainly hope thats not the case. There have been many respectful egalitarian societies throughout history, from Buddhist era japan to the most successful of all socialist societies, the native americans, many of which were far more respectful of individual freedom and sovereignty that the US, who regularly goes trampling over human rights, freedom, democracy, and sovereignty all over the world.

reply to post by ExistenceUnknown

i don't mean to squabble, i think your understanding of human rights is dangerous. you started this by saying

Well I hate to break it to all of you, especially the ones who think you are born with these rights. You are born with whatever “rights” your current government will allow you to have.

this idea has led to genocide of the most evil type.

let me start by saying i meant sentience to mean self awareness, if it doesn't mean self awareness, i was wrong and i should have used a different word.
apologies for any confusion caused.

thought is not the truth, truth is subjective, reality cannot be subjective as it must be universal so the truth does not define reality. it's complex, lets not get bogged down on two fronts.

as i have tried to explain to you, society, in the context of human rights, is a function of humanity, not a single country. particularities of nationhood are irrelevant in this context, in the same way that particularities of nationhood were irrelevant to the actions of the nazis.

if you believe that the rights a person is due are deemed valid by the state then you believe that the nazis had every right to exterminate the jews.

do you?

[edit on 9/12/08 by pieman]

reply to post by pieman


If the world validates a right then what more is there to say? Obviously the Germans thought it was there right. However the world did not agree.

It is not a Dangerous thought, it is merely the way things are. I personally think people have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. However that does not mean that the world agrees.

We are the result of our environment, and if you were raised a nazi you would have thought it was your right.

reply to post by ExistenceUnknown

Well I hate to break it to all of you, especially the ones who think you are born with these rights. You are born with whatever “rights” your current government will allow you to have.

so it isn't your government that validates your rights, it is the world?

what do you mean by "the world", exactly?

Originally posted by pieman
reply to post by ExistenceUnknown

 

so it isn't your government that validates your rights, it is the world?

what do you mean by "the world", exactly?

The World was opposed to the Rights the Nazi's felt they had. In this case the world means all those who opposed the Nazi's. I use the word "World" to emphasize the vast opposition from many countries and it shouldn't be taken literally to mean the entire world.

The Nazi government did indeed validate the Rights its people had. The world however did not validate them.

The point is, you say we are born with rights. Well then I ask you who determines which rights we get? If we are born with Rights and no one defines the Rights for us, who is to say the Nazi's werent justified in their actions? In your case its "All people have a right to happiness and Dignity". What if the Nazi's found Happiness and Dignity in genocide? Has the world not then infringed upon their "Human Rights"?

Originally posted by ExistenceUnknown
What if the Nazi's found Happiness and Dignity in genocide? Has the world not then infringed upon their "Human Rights"?

this is an invalid argument, one persons rights cannot be more important than anthers because they are equal.

i'll make this really simple for you, it is black and white.

either the jews had rights because they were human or they had rights assigned by the state. which is it. simple question.

[edit on 9/12/08 by pieman]

reply to post by pieman


But its not a black and white subject. But I will answer your question with this.

The Jews did not have rights under the Nazi's. Just as Slaves did not have rights under Americans in our early history.

And as far as the Nazi's go they did not view the Jews as equals so my argument is valid.

[edit on 9-12-2008 by ExistenceUnknown]

reply to post by ExistenceUnknown


but that is my point, if the equality is designated by the state, then it is acceptable to commit genocide so long as the state deems it acceptable.

this is something i will never, never, never accept.

genocide is wrong, slavery is wrong. they were wrong in the past, they are wrong now and they will be wrong in the future.

reply to post by pieman


Of course it is wrong, thats why it was stopped. It doesn't mean its not going to happen again.

I take it from your earlier statement about humans having rights because we have sapience to mean that you don't think animals have rights? If that is so then I will argue that in 100 years people may very well say that Animals are born with rights. This will happen because that society dictates that they do and upholds it.

and then someone will be debating much like we are debating. One for Animals being born with rights and one for them not.

[edit on 9-12-2008 by ExistenceUnknown]

reply to post by ExistenceUnknown


perhaps, i may well be wrong about animals, there is an argument to be made.

without self awareness i'm not sure that an animal can have either happiness or dignity, but there may well be animals with self awareness. i'm not sure animals have self awareness but if you can show me they are i'll probably say they have rights as well.

Of course it is wrong, thats why it was stopped. It doesn't mean its not going to happen again.

why was it wrong, the state said it was right.

reply to post by pieman


I am not advocating that the State is always right in its rulings. What the Nazi's did was very wrong. But that way of thinking is a condition of the environment I was raised in. If every single person in the world was raised(including you) to hate jews and saw them as beneath us. Would you not think that the genocide of these people is ok?

I can tell that you are very much an optimistic idealist. One of those who believes in the greater good and that people are special somehow because we evolved into thinking creatures. I however do not hold this view. Sapience is something that we evolved out of a need for survival. We will surely continue this debate back and forth but I will take the opportunity to end it. The subject of this post has gone very very far away from what I had originally intended. For the time being we will just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the debate.

Originally posted by ExistenceUnknown
I can tell that you are very much an optimistic idealist.

i laughed out loud, my girlfriend says you must be in the gloomiest room in the world.

glad you enjoyed the debate. i hope you learned something.

Originally posted by pieman


genocide is wrong, slavery is wrong. they were wrong in the past, they are wrong now and they will be wrong in the future.

And they are proof that we are not born with any rights. All "rights" are handed out by the state only to be taken away at will. If you think we are born with certain rights, then does that mean that the victims of the above listed crimes willingly forfeited said rights? They never got to excercise them so did they even have them?

reply to post by ExistenceUnknown


How Shakespearean. Very interesting indeed. I agree that man himself, as an organic being, is dictated by natural law. So there are limits to that which we can influence. We should be aware of those limits, and make sure not to profess powers that we ourselves can not tame.

We shape society by our own hands, so we should make the best of it. The integrity of a purposeful society rests solely on man's ability to preserve it through artificial constructions of law. Therefore, rights, as applied to society are equal to the limits, which we impose on ourselves, so that all people can pursue life both relatively freely and equally.

wrong
GOD made me not the government
I have GOD given rights
i am waiting for further instrunctions on what HE wants me
to do next and im just biding my time until the throwdown comes
i dont pay taxes
i dont register my car
i dont inspect my car
i took my mailbox down
i send back traffic tickets under 72 hours
im getting pretty close not doing anything
"they" want me to do
now granted it might end up in a standoff
so im trying to avoid a confrontation until
at least the throwdown comes

Originally posted by GRANDWORLDDRAMA
wrong
GOD made me not the government
I have GOD given rights
i am waiting for further instrunctions on what HE wants me
to do next and im just biding my time until the throwdown comes
i dont pay taxes
i dont register my car
i dont inspect my car
i took my mailbox down
i send back traffic tickets under 72 hours
im getting pretty close not doing anything
"they" want me to do
now granted it might end up in a standoff
so im trying to avoid a confrontation until
at least the throwdown comes

I can take every one of those "rights" away with a gun. The government can do it with a pen. Are we more powerful than God?

Read Melville if you want to know about cetacean rights...
But, he wasn't talking about whales, was he?

Right to live - what does that mean? You die, then call upon your right and get resurrected. Yeah - Right!

Look what happened in Greece these days when police exceeded their rights. But this will never happen in the land of Ambrosia...

I find the contrasting avatars of Pieman and Existence unknown to be a hilarious coincidence, as they are the protaganists in this debate.

As I understand it one enormous problem in this day and age is that the law enforcement establishment has gained some sway in the way laws are made and enforced. Kind of like having the factory workers control product development, production, distribution and quality control. In the eyes of a cop every problem can be solved by more restrictive laws, more rights for the cop and less red tape to fight through in going after the criminals(citizens). What you end up with is the ideal scenario for the enforcers and a very lopsided situation for the average man. Watch a show like cops or something.

Cops certainly have a very emboldened attitude. They approach every suspect as though he is already in custody, cops demand respect yet they act very disrespectfully and arrogant. When was the last time you heard a cop apologize for pulling someone over? It's us, the citizens, who immediately start apologizing when our day is interrupted by a public servant.

Most of the people arrested by cops are American citizens yet they are treated as though they are nothing more than enemy combatants in a vicious war. Doors kicked down, gassed, attacked by dogs, chased through the streets, tackled, bound, frequently beaten and then tossed in a cell to wait for the wheels of justice to slowly turn. Outside of murder, rape and theft I cannot think of a crime worthy of this treatment.

I blame the citizens. If we all want to live in a country where our own rights are respected then we must allow others to practice their own lifestyles. You like church on sundays? Great, I like heroin and prostitutes on sundays. As long as I don't harm you in any way then that should be my right. You like to have a few beers on friday night? Great, I won't institute prohibition on alcohol if you'll allow me to gamble without persecution. Unfortunately many out there want to have their freedoms but do not want others to have the same.

And yes I really do view church as no more respectable a diversion than prostitutes and heroin. Whatever brings you closer to god, right?

Damn right I think I have rights,

First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Second Amendment – Right to keep and bear arms.
A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Third Amendment – Protection from quartering of troops.
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Fifth Amendment – due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.
Seventh Amendment – Civil trial by jury.
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Ninth Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Tenth Amendment – Powers of states and people.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

My favorites are nine and ten together.
ANY RIGHTS not listed in the bill of rights and not specifically addressed by the states, are retained BY THE PEOPLE if they believe it is a right. This is the ultimate trump card. Too bad so many are playing with an incomplete deck of cards and are ok with it.