CNN,UFO's Calling all Aliens SETI

reply to post by Oscitate


Yeah sure, take two different incomplete quotes in the context of debating two issues, that explains it right.

She is both incompetent in discerning what she saw and the judgment she made based on her shortcomings.

I see we have yet another skeptic, what is it that's not clear to you regarding my opinion?

reply to post by Majorion


it would be nice if you could explain your positions. You have been asked 3 times why you think seti will "never" find anyhing but cant seem to form a coherent answer.

you also dont say why you think seti is a fake organisation. Your conclusion isnt based on evidence becuase they have real telescopes, published data, science papers and come across completely sincere. In fact everything i see points to them being a legit experiment in deep space exploration.

i can only assume you base your opinions on the fact they dont agree we are being visited by aliens in spaceships.

Even if we are being visted they certainly dont want to communicate with us. It would be very easy for them to do so. So why not try find some who do?

You contradict yourself.

Earlier...

Originally posted by Majorion
I haven't attacked her based on whether she believes of extraterrestrial visitation or not, I'm attacking her based on her incompetence.

Now you are claiming...

Originally posted by Majorion
For the last friggin time, I am not attacking her based on her obvious incompetence, nothing wrong with being incompetent.But to act as judge and jury over the UFO subject and to say that UFO's don't even exist because she couldn't tell the difference between an alleged alien craft and the moon, is just ridiculous.

So, why are you attacking her again?

Originally posted by Majorion
She(like you) has never researched this subject to even have an opinion.

How would you know I or Dr. Tarter have not researched the subject? Much like your claim that SETI will never detect a signal, you are assigning absolutes to things you have no way of knowing. You are further mistaking a difference of opinion as a mark of ignorance. I can't speak for Dr. Tarter, but for the record, the books by Timothy Good, Budd Hopkins, Jenny Randles, Dr. Jacobs, Nick Redfern and many others on my shelves attest to something much different than what you are claiming.

Originally posted by Majorion
If she doesn't believe that some UFOs represent alien spacecraft, then that's fine, but to say that UFOs aren't even real or don't exist is quite ignorant and unwarranted on her part just because she terribly misinterpreted something as obvious as the moon. Even most scientists know that UFOs are real, that is a given.

I think you miss her point. She never said there is no such thing as UFOs, all she said was that she did not believe are evidence of extraterrestrial visitation. She illustrated this with her own experience, showing that given the right circumstances even trained observers can misidentify things in the sky.

This is a point you have agreed on. You agreed that even trained observers can make these mistakes. However, for some reason, you made Dr. Tarter the exception, attacking her for this mistake and declaring her incompetent.

Originally posted by Majorion
And I fail to see why you think that extraterrestrials are "supernatural" anyways. What is so supernatural about the existence of intelligent life other than human beings? .. It's not exactly fairies and unicorns.

Because we do not know whether such things exist or not. Aliens are not part of our natural world, insofar as we currently know. I use supernatural to distinguish between what we known and what we don't know, the mundane and the extraordinary.

[edit on 9-12-2008 by SaviorComplex]

Originally posted by yeti101
you also dont say why you think seti is a fake organisation. Your conclusion isnt based on evidence...

Of course it's based on evidence, he just won't tell us what evidence. We have to take his word for it, otherwise we are ignorant, uneducated and closed-minded.

Originally posted by yeti101
i can only assume you base your opinions on the fact they dont agree we are being visited by aliens in spaceships.

Despite his protests to the contrary, I think I showed this to be the case in my previous post.

Originally posted by yeti101
Even if we are being visted they certainly dont want to communicate with us. It would be very easy for them to do so. So why not try find some who do?

You have shown a flaw in the fundamentalist believers' hatred towards SETI.

Originally posted by Majorion
She is both incompetent in discerning what she saw and the judgment she made based on her shortcomings.



I see we have yet another skeptic, what is it that's not clear to you regarding my opinion?

Well...for starters...

Originally posted by Majorion
I'm attacking her based on her incompetence.

Originally posted by Majorion
For the last friggin time, I am not attacking her based on her obvious incompetence

And then there's this. By your own admission...

Originally posted by Majorion
And it IS possible that trained observers can misidentify things...

But despite this, you claim Jill Tarter is the exception to the rule. Why is she the exception to the rule? The best answer you can come up with is the fact she misidentified something.

Can you see how we aren't exactly clear on the points you are trying to make?

However, because those behind SETI/METI are not focusing exclusively on flying saucers, the fundamentalist believers idiotically attack it.

I never once suggested that the Seti institute should focus on UFOs, yet they are the ones who have taken it upon themselves and have no problem in playing big roles on some of the most influential broadcasts concerning UFOs like "ABC's Seeing is Believing" and the more recent Larry King live UFO shows, not to forget what this thread is about too CNN/UFOs/SETI, they(not surprisingly) often give the closing statements regarding unidentified flying objects and I need not remind you of their position on this. So why intervene in this matter all the time acting as skeptics if there is really nothing to this subject?

Perhaps you could list your various accomplishments and achievements, to show us how you are qualified to make such a judgement about someone

Oh I'm sorry, I hadn't realized that qualification was needed to form an opinion about someone or a specific organization. Perhaps you could list your own qualifications for forming an opinion about me.

In so far as SETI detecting an alien signal, have they accomplished this? No, of course not.

I concur, of course not. Not even you have any hope in Seti, why do you even continue this debate? It's obvious that your motives aren't really to defend them, rather an attempt to attack and discredit me, not to mention calling me a hypocrite, and a closed minded fundamentalist believer among many other things and then say that I referred to you as these things. Since you love to quote and requote me(back to your real motives) why don't you find the so called quotes where I called you these things. Or should I quote you?

But then again, the UFO believers have not managed to prove life-exists beyond the planet either

You brought this up more than once when you know my answer and humble admission to this. No, there isn't the type of proof your looking for. That's if you're even looking.

First, that is a huge assumption to make. How do you know they will never detect or recieve a signal?

You by your own admission have said "No, of course not" so why do you continue to ask this question?

Second, perhaps you've never heard of Wow! Signal,

Oh yes I've heard of it in the context of UFOs being a "myth" on ABC's seeing is believing uttered by none other than Seti's own Carl Sagan. But in the end, was there anything that merited a "Wow" from this signal?

However, I did have an interesting experience Friday night involving the Moon. On the way back from watching a movie, I saw what appeared to be an unusual light in the sky. It looked like either a stationary spotlight (like the Bat-Signal), or some sort of aircraft sitting motionless in the clouds. After a minute or so of watching, the clouds broke and revealed the Moon. It does happen, people make mistakes

Apparently, you do too. I can clearly see why you're taking this so personally, when I've done nothing but express my opinion.

She illustrated this with her own experience, showing that given the right circumstances even trained observers can misidentify things in the sky.

In some cases yes, trained observes can misidentify things, but not always, not all the time. There are way too many cases for every one of them to be labeled as a case of misidentification. Surely you can concede to that.

However, for some reason, you made Dr. Tarter the exception, attacking her for this mistake and declaring her incompetent

The reason being her influence on the minds of people who trust Seti. Why don't they just mind their own business and carry on with their project? .. I'm sure you're gonna quote me on this one.

Of course it's based on evidence, he just won't tell us what evidence. We have to take his word for it, otherwise we are ignorant, uneducated and closed-minded

LOL, Ok first of all SaviorComplex, as I said earlier, you are the one who made these statements. And again, since you seem to be struggling with this, YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE MY WORD FOR IT. this is just my opinion. Is there something inherently wrong about expressing an opinion?

On to the evidence part, obviously ... short of handing you a piece of wreckage or a flying saucer or a body of a dead alien, you simply won't accept anything I'd have to offer. When it comes to extraterrestrials and cases attributed to them by high ranking officials, I had referred you to one classic example in the "cometa report". If you ARE sincerely interested in exploring this subject with a little more detail, I suggest you start with that document. The full one is actually in French, but there is a small section of that report(translated to English) which is extremely interesting.

But let's be honest with each other SaviorComplex, you aren't here to have a civil or intelligent discussion with me. You think you're here denying ignorance. And no, I'm not suggesting that you're ignorant even if you are a bit of aloof. Your attempts to twist my words are pointless, but that's not the point is it?

Whenever someone utters something of controversial nature here on ATS, you immediately notice the ones who come to disrupt/divert the original flow of discussion, and eventually kill the thread. I think you know exactly what I mean, you don't want proof as you claim. Nor do you want civil discussion or conversation. So I ask you SaviorComplex.. why are you here?

Can you see how we aren't exactly clear on the points you are trying to make?

No, but I am crystal clear on the point YOU are trying to make.

[edit on 10/12/08 by Majorion]

Originally posted by Majorion

Perhaps you could list your various accomplishments and achievements, to show us how you are qualified to make such a judgement about someone

Oh I'm sorry, I hadn't realized that qualification was needed to form an opinion about someone or a specific organization. Perhaps you could list your own qualifications for forming an opinion about me.

Why are you responding to this again? You've already said your peace about this once before. Why re-tread this ground?

Originally posted by Majorion
I concur, of course not. Not even you have any hope in Seti, why do you even continue this debate? But then again, the UFO believers have not managed to prove life-exists beyond the planet either

You complain about people twisting your words, when you have done the exact same thing.

An acknowledgement of what they have not yet accomplished is quite different than saying they will never accomplish it. I never said they will not, can not, or never will achieve their goals. I believe they can accomplish those goals, and I hope it happens in my lifetime, hoping every day is the day it happens.

And you have still not said why you think it is impossible and hopeless. Instead, you just twisted my words and shifted it back to me. You take the typical route of the frustrated believer. Instead of discussing the evidence (or in this case answering questions), you make the issue about the skeptic, attacking them for even having questions. Attacking me does not answer the question you have been asked by several people. Why is it impossible and hopeless? Why will it never happen?

Originally posted by Majorion
Oh yes I've heard of it in the context of UFOs being a "myth" on ABC's seeing is believing uttered by none other than Seti's own Carl Sagan.

You saw it on a program that aired 8 years after Sagan passed away? Wow; ABC may not have convinced anyone regarding UFOs, but they proved there is life-after-death. All kidding aside, was it file footage? What did Dr. Sagan have to say about it? I don't remember that particular segment.

Originally posted by Majorion
Ok first of all SaviorComplex, as I said earlier, you are the one who made these statements.

Hmmm...yeah...you're right. You've not done a thing like that...

Originally posted by Majorion
Ugggh, you have such a short attention span.

Originally posted by Majorion
the fact that you even ask that question shows how much you know about the institute you're defending. Do some research.

Originally posted by Majorion
But your preconceived notions are inhibiting you to open your eyes

Originally posted by Majorion
Who's the real conspiracy nut now

Originally posted by Majorion
I must point out that if you're actually defending SETI or NASA for that matter, then I'm sorry to say that you aren't exactly informed yourself.

Originally posted by Majorion
Obviously you don't possess an open mind.

I do not claim to be a saint, and you are not victim. You may have not used the same words as I, but your sentiment and meaning is the same, if not worse. And I will stand by what I said; I think it is hypocritical and closed-minded for UFO believers to attack SETI. Further, I think it is closed-minded to attack someone, such as Dr. Tarter, and only able to give an unclear, shifting answer. (first, it's because she's incompetent, it's not based on her competence; it's not because she doesn't believe in extraterrestrial visitation, then it is because she doesn't believe).

Originally posted by Majorion
So I ask you SaviorComplex.. why are you here?

I have every right to be here and every right to express my opinion, even if it would be considered heretical in a forum such as this. I do not have to explain myself to anyone here. If you do not like my opinion, put me on ignore.

reply to post by SaviorComplex

You may have not used the same words as I, but your sentiment and meaning is the same, if not worse

C'mon SaviorComplex, You're starting to show that there's actually a nice person in real life behind that user name of yours. I will admit that I've said some things myself that could be considered insulting, but really no where near the labels you've given me, and you said this stuff before I even said anything remotely insulting to you.

And I will stand by what I said; I think it is hypocritical and closed-minded for UFO believers to attack SETI

Fair enough, but to be honest you don't really know me well enough to label me a so called "believer", yeah sure I believe somethings concerning extraterrestrials to be real, but I also believe in God, does that make me a religious fanatic extremist for example? No, of course not, It's just a basic belief. Nothing to the extent of fundamentalism as you've suggested before. If you believe that, then fine, that's your opinion and I'll respect it.

I have every right to be here and every right to express my opinion, even if it would be considered heretical in a forum such as this. I do not have to explain myself to anyone here. If you do not like my opinion, put me on ignore.

It seems we share more in common than you'd care to admit SaviorComplex, isn't the above quote what I've been trying to say all along?

I differ in opinion, but I have respected your views, why can't you just respect mine too? No I won't put you on ignore my friend. I don't believe that running away from an issue is ever gonna solve anything. Why can't you just agree to disagree and leave at that in peace?

Originally posted by Majorion
You obviously think highly of SETI, why not present for us a short essay on their many glorious achievements.

seti managed to secure $20 million in funding to construct the 1st phase of the Allen Telescope Array. 42 telescopes increasing to 350. This project would not have been possible even 10 years ago due to the massive computer power required.

ATA-350 will be capable of detecting an Aceribo sized radar out to a distance of 1000 light years (1 million stars) in a range of 1 to 10 ghz

Now Mr Majorian can you tell me what ufologists have achieved?



[edit on 11-12-2008 by yeti101]