Was the abrahamic god the worst serial killer in human history?

reply to post by Taskism

If God is "inherently beyond all things", and when "Any human attribute on God is preposterous" that cancels out the whole concept of love as well. Love is no less a human emotion than vengefulness, jealousy and hate.

Beyond all things and also within them. I would say Love is the only realest thing we experience aside from Spiritual enlightenment. But the Love that unenlightened people experience is like a light bulb compared to the sun that is (God is Love) and even that metaphor pales.

One thing I don't get about religion, is that how some people, such as yourself, and certain denominations is that they can have faith in a God that was created in the Old testament, expanded on in the New Testament and then deny the OT origins of the whole thing and write them off as "delusional." Without that dilusion, the NT and all of its ideas would never have come into existence.

Faith is for beginners. When you experience God and enlightenment, you go from faith, to knowing. I'll let others have their faith and rest pure direct experience and knowing.

When Jesus came, he had to speak within the reference of OT because thats the only thing that was around then. If he came to Tibet, he would be speaking within reference of buddhists texts. It's relative. Besides when Jesus comes, he completely changes everything from OT to NT style. Quite simple. EVen if there was no OT, Jesus could still have showed up, preached, and whole movement would have started around him.

I don't see it as blasphemous or anything, just hypocritical and completely illogical.

That's fine, we're all entitled to our opinions and views.

It says very clearly in the bible in 1 Corinthians 2:5 "That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

That's because the wisdom of men is foolish, and the wisdom of men looks down on blind faith. Standing on the power of God, is like I said, direct knowing and experience. At that instant, you have no choice in the matter as far as having faith or not. It just become automatic knowing like breathing air.

from your desert father Paul that you stand by. So how is it that your manly wisdom leads you to believe that the God that Jesus himself claimed to be the son of is nothing but dilusion?

Because if Jesus came out and said the OT is a crock, nobody would have taken him seriously. It was just better to leave that alone knowing the he would have a hard time as it is with all the changes and new teachings.

OT uses God labels such as Yahweh and Elohim, but the NT and Jesus never does. OT god has all these human characteristics, whereas NT God's characteristics are all mystical and transcendent.

Just look up Marcion who was a persuasive intellectual theologian bishop who came out and said that the Bible should completely get rid of the OT. Of course he was ex-communicated for it, but it has to make you think what was this guy thinking. Somebody so smart and so powerful in influence to come out against the status quo and pronounce that the OT God is not the same as the NT. He was not alone. Had many followers and other gnostic groups composing thousands if not hundreds of thousands felt the same about the OT.

Jesus just intertwined himself with the OT to make it a gradual shift to avoid shell shock. I myself thought it blasphemous when 1st hearing this theory, but gradually it all dawned on me little by little that it is this way.

And in order for the sacrifice of Jesus to actually have any relevance to anything at all, you have to accept that God is blood thirsty, and that he forgives sin through sacrifices of blood.

That's 1 view of it. The other view is that Jesus could have been so fed up with all the sacrificing of our innocent little fury friends, that he finally decided to do something about it, by sacrificing himself once and for all so the Jews stop with all the killing of animals.

Or we can view it as him juts being killed just like Gandhi and other enlightened masters who were killed because egos couldn't understand what was being said and so they divided, conquered, and killed.

There are many various angles of this. I personally don't think God is blood thirsty, when God is within all people, blood, thirst, animals, omnipresent.

Plus we have other "spiritual paths" also reporting similar enlightenments that Christians have, except without ever having anything to do with blodd sacrifices.

If you cant accept that God only forgives through the giving of blood, how can you think that Jesus’ blood being spilt meant anything at all?

I hear where you are coming from. Just Love God with all your heart, thats the most important commandment. That, meditation, prayer, and seeking God will give you enlightenment. If you can't resolve within yourself all the blood/sacrifices then its o.k. to just leave it as a gray area to be unvieled at a later time and continue your spiritual pursuits.

Thank you for the information about The Great Schism of 1054. It isn't something I am familiar with yet, and I will check it out so I don't make a fool of myself in the future

No prob. If you get a chance, check out Marcion, Meister Eckhart, Teresa of Avila, and the Cloud of Unknowing. All in the same vein to funnel you through all the bullsh** semantics

When saying GOd is Love...the human concept of love brings limited understanding of this.

Think of unconditional love, a force that does not can not change. A love that follows order.


I believe, when we die, we glimpse this love by seeing, to deny the Divine One that is Life of all things, is only to deny ourselves. Does a rain drop LOVE the dew on the grass? Not in the same concept that we think of love. BUT....the rain drop and the dew are from the same foundation, root, which is water. Its not a love that can be or cant be....it just IS. If something IS a part of you....no matter which way it is looked at....it is unconditional to be a part of the other. Its like a magnetic force pulling and pulling until the two things twine into ONE. Its a natural attraction...a force. God doesnt sit around deciding he loves us or not....this 'love' (language limits us in these conversations) is stedfast and does not waver. Our physical bodies are shells that encompass the spirit that is sifting itself back to where it came from. Just as though the seed finds its way back into Earth....a natural order, that does not waver.

God is Holy and the Spirit brings this Holy as Life. Jesus was the highest embodiment of the Spirit that was not blemished. Jesus did not need Yahweh to exists but history needed Jesus to be tied to Yahweh. The men did this, not God or Jesus. Jesus said many times he did not come for the reasons many thought. He taught people how to think mystically. How to seek a higher understanding. He taught us, its not black and white but many colors. IF IF IF (big if) Yahweh could be a real entity that is a ruler and THINKS thee is god theeself.....then I think its very possible that the name "YAH" is a word of magic, possibly this spirit KNEW (or man themselves KNEW) this word held power to call on spirits and demons. There is plenty of things in the OT that relate to alchemy and magic....including the sound or name of YHWH. Once I realized it is what it is, its all the more spooky that Yahweh is a name related to invoking demons long ago.

All one has to do is go to thee with a humble heart and ask....Thee will show you if Thee needs bloodshed or not. You will receive a love encompass you and fill you like you have never felt. Thee needs us to only know what our nature is in the purest form, so divine order can work through us. We are spiritual beings right here, right now....we are strong and we are worthy.

Originally posted by dominicus

Thank you OP for a brilliant post.

I have just recently raised a similar hypothesis in the same board and did not see this post til recently.

Being a Christian myself (strictly NT, mysticism, & desert fathers) I find this amazing and makes me laugh and the impossible apologetics Xtians will come up with to defend this OT god's actions.

Yes -perhaps if the OT god ever did come back we should march him straight to the Hague's International Genocide Commission and have him locked up.

Here are some other ludicrously unhinged 'homicidal instructions' from the Bible - I wonder why followers and fundamentalist true beleivers do not carry them out anymore?

Getting stoned if you touch the holy things:


Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13



Getting stoned if you take accursed things:


Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26



Getting stoned if you curse or blaspheme:


And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16



Getting stoned if you're raped and don't scream:


If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24



Getting stoned if you're an ox and gore a human:


If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28



Getting stoned if you marry when not a virgin:


If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21



Getting stoned if you worship other gods:


If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10



Getting stoned if you disobey your father:


If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21



Getting stoned if you're a wizard or a witch:


A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27



Getting stoned if you give Molech your kids:


Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2



Getting stoned if you're a sabbath breaker:


They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56



Getting stoned if you curse the dictator:


Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10

i'd like to throw a wrench in the works here.

first, enlil's flood scenario was designed to wipe out the nephilim, not the humans. there just weren't many humans left. most had died from starvation, disease, pollution, genetic manipulation, wars, and the nephilim resorting to cannibalizing the remaining humans to survive the global drought/massive pollution from the various wars and genetic manipulation of pretty much everything with DNA.

this is evident if you read the texts in their original languages, which includes the hebrew pseudopigraphia, the biblical and sumerian texts. some assumptions were made by the translators of the biblical texts, that should not have been made. nephilim were called men but they weren't human. they were modified and the modifications were making the entire planet sick, evidence of that are the references to them being giants (gigantism perhaps?) six-fingered and so on.

enki did not save the humans. he saved the nephilim king of sumer. the royals were nephilim (kingship descended from heaven). enlil saved the humans. the two stories bare a great deal of similarity but are not the same. this is why enlil gets angry at enki when he finds out. and the event is commemorated in the reference "there were giants in the earth in those days and ALSO AFTER"... just have to read it very carefully. we're talking compact/condensed history now and every word has meaning.

en-lil's name means LORD SKY/AIR/HEAVEN etc. he's LORD of everything above the ground and above the water, including the events that transpire in those locations. EN means LORD. LIL means SKY etc.

as a result, the LIL word became the generic word for all gods of the middle east. by the time of BAB-EL. his name had been loaned out to the water/earth god, enki.

LIL became IL became EL became AL

bab (water gate) - (of) - el (god)
earlier title was bab-ilu. that's the same word.

now i believe the old testament references to enlil are intermixed with references to enki. as a result, enlil references are not all enlil's doing.

anybody who thinks enki made us, as is described in the sumerian-akkadian story ENKI AND NINMAH, needs to take note that not one of the creations resulted in a healthy human being. they were just tinkering with what had already been made. it was a contest to see who could genetically manipulate the worst possible hybrid.

THIS is why the new testament jesus seems so different from the old testament jehovah. because not every reference in the old testament is referring to EL as in jehovah but the water/earth god, enki.

read the namshub of enki (which is a babylonian version of the tower of babel event. read it CAREFULLY.
deoxy.org...


[edit on 8-9-2009 by undo]

Suddenly you have to wonder if Satan hasn't just been getting a bad rap all these years. He doesn't even have a bodycount!

Amen to that!

This is the most horrific and truly disrespectful thread I have ever seen. I just cringe when I read things like this. I just don't get it when people have no fear of God. I really fear for you, there are always consequences to your actions. You are only listing who was killed, and you are not listing the reasons why they were killed. The reason is sin. God hates sin. You just act like anyone should be able to do what they please, and there won't be consequences to their actions, but there are always consequences. We reap what we sow. The Lord says "Vengeance is mine". It is not ours, to do as we please. In Noah's day, the world was so evil, so God did some major housecleaning. I truly feel that this will happen again very soon, not the flood, but the housecleaning, because the world is so evil now. I have been crying for the last 20 years, saying that it is so evil, how can it get any more evil, but it continues to get more and more evil. When the housecleaning happens, whose side will you be on? Will you choose the Godly side or the earthly, carnal, evil side? I want to be on God's side. I want to spend eternity in heaven. I am really praying for God to touch your heart, and let you see that he is a very loving, kind, wonderful, beautiful God!

Originally posted by Blueangel7
I just don't get it when people have no fear of God. I really fear for you, there are always consequences to your actions. You are only listing who was killed, and you are not listing the reasons why they were killed. The reason is sin.

If you want to live in fear then of course it is up to you.
Just remember that fear = control = slavery.

reply to post by karl 12


worship = a form of work. you're already a slave to civilization because you work for it and within it. the new testament says you have a chance of modifying that position in heaven, if you follow jesus' teachings - i'm assuming it means being kind, charitable, forgiving, non-judgemental and so on. i doubt he meant for us to worry about every little thing, which clearly causes the wrong kind of fear. in this case, i think good fear means respect. respect is and should be the natural by-product of understanding. or so it seems to me, when reading the information.

Originally posted by undoworship = a form of work. you're already a slave to civilization because you work for it and within it.

The comment was more directed at being a slave in a cult mentality context but nevermind.

As for fear = respect - how on earth can you respect the actions and instructions of the biblical god listed above?

I don't have time to read every post so I apologize if this was already discussed.

There is no quick and easy way to explain this, but the key to the big conspiracies takes place in Genesis 6. Plain and simple There were giants in the land in those days fathered by a class of angels called the Watchers. If anyone is serious about going down the rabbit hole I suggest you start there.

33 Million...? That's not that bad when spread over 6000 years. Over 107 Million died in World War I & II and everyone knows that thing was nothing more than the Devil's Opera.

And that one time that Satan got the Romans to kill Jesus....from what I understand the World ceased to exist for nearly three days.

Everyone's got a history it seems. Hell, the guy who is my avatar sacked the same Middle Eastern, Russian and Indian cities repeatedly for 35 years...even he's responsible for more human suffering than the Abraham's God.

[edit on 8-9-2009 by IDK88]

reply to post by karl 12


did you read my previous post? i'm not convinced it's the same EL doing all that, which is why jesus and jehovah sometimes don't seem to have even remotely the same paradigms. you realize that the original word "Elohiym" not only was used to refer to the gods, but also to angels and the dearly departed? in other words, people make alot of assumptions, and i don't necessarily mean people today, but people who translated the texts. to me, it looks like at least 2 different ELOHIYM being referred to, but we no longer differentiate between one elohiym and another.

by the time of the events described in the tower of babel story , the god words, IL(u) and EL and AL, had been distributed to all divine authority figures, specifically, divine beings and/ or divine rulers. it all started with the word LIL. the etymology of which is LIL, IL, EL, AL. thus we see B'EL and BA'AL using the root god word



[edit on 8-9-2009 by undo]

addendum to above post

here's a link indicating the various ways the word elohim was used. it's a .pdf file. the author is a well known linguist and scholar of ancient languages, michael s. heiser
www.thedivinecouncil.com...

i don't agree with him entirely, as he does tend to go with the idea that anywhere it refers to EL singularly, that it must be a reference to yahweh, which i'm currently not convinced of.

to put it in even better perspective, there's much indication that there's a council of gods (elohiym) spoken of in the old and new testament, not to mention the rest of the texts of the ancient world. michael points this out in the following .pdf on the subject of the "divine council"
www.thedivinecouncil.com...

so my current theory is that jesus was a single person but references to GOD or LORD in the old testament may not always be referring to YAHWEH/JEHOVAH/ENLIL.

[edit on 8-9-2009 by undo]

reply to post by karl 12


The long list you've placed here, is absolutely shocking. As an ex christian, I know the bible ofcourse, but to see it on one big list, is shocking. I remember back in my christian days, I wondered allready if the god of the old testament and the god of the new testament were really one and the same, because they seemed to be so completely different.

reply to post by karl 12


Cain was a killer. "A murderer from the start."
Always curious to me how first generation man was a killer. Must have had killer in his genes.

When I read of Biblical offerings rendered, precious gems, silver, gold, exotic fragrance, wine and meat offerings, the goat and lamb sacrifices it reminds me of someone feeding a whole lot of people and taking advantage of the local populace to provide a banquet and all the fixins.
.
The people even arranged their lives via a whole "religion" based on feeding and providing for "these others" who apparently were unwilling or unable to go get the meat and cook it themselves. They had enough power to easily get others to do it for them. They must have been superior or so significantly different as to be another type BIOLOGICAL entity altogether. I think it is clear these were not on a par with the populace and so could not have been manipulation of humans by humans...at least in the beginning.

Christians, Muslims and Jews....all the same God, the same religious root. I can see why people not affiliated with one of them might hate all of them.

And from somewhere there alighted....Buddha who hasn't killed anyone I am aware of...and there are tribal Gods...most dreadfully murderous as well. The Mayans were not exactly pacifists. Funny that most of the planet is Abrahamic but for 2012 - we all go Mayan


If the answer to your question is "yes"
Few records remain unbroken. And I think a conglomerate of mixed faiths called the US of A can tally some corpses. Given the few people around to kill in biblical times, compared to today, I am sure we took the record and broke it. We are still burying the bodies at a rather steady clip. And this Abrahamic God has been out of town for quite a spell.

In the Sumerian texts, we have the stories of Enki and Enlil, and for the most part there is portions devoted to each. But in Genesis, Enlil seemingly reigns supreme. Enlil knew early on, that a pound of good Public Relations effort is worth a ton of truth.

Abraham and his descendants served Enlil, and followed his precepts. The Egyptians, on the other hand, were Enki’s protégés, and based on food management practices during the devastating droughts around the time of Jacob and Joseph, were doing a lot better than Enlil’s followers. Obviously Noah backed the right horse in that Enki shared boat plans with the righteous fellow -- whom Enlil later claimed as his own.


www.halexandria.org...