Boy 'killed father after 1,000 smacks'

reply to post by Merriman Weir

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"I'd like to see some specifics about the nature of the spankings. "

Do you honestly think that 'spankings' are not also a form of emotional abuse?

You cannot possibly be so naive as to think otherwise.

This child was being physically and mentally tormented - I'm disgusted by the way you have managed to rationalize this horrible child abuse.

*You have admittedly not even bothered to do any further research on the story - you yourself say you haven't even bothered to use even google. Willful ignorance eh?

reply to post by Canadianduder

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Ah, now it comes out. Your one of the fluffy, do-gooder types who will resist any attempt at disciplining kids.

Do you think any form of punishment is bad for a child? What would you recommend? Got kids yourself?

I am intrested as to what your take on child discipline is. it would make your position a whole lot clearer.

Erm, no. I've actually looked for more information on the story. However, I've not been able to find that much more. Certainly nothing on the actual nature of the spankings that are the background to this particular story.

So, again, if you have got information, why don't you actually share it, rather than playing this silly game?

reply to post by stumason

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I've raised 9 children (youngest is 30 next month) and I have 14 grandchildren

I'd also appreciate it if you refrained from asking personal questions.

In regards to discipline; My children never needed to be hit. I found that isolating them and having them explain their actions, and then having them explain how things should have been done if they were obeying the rules was a most effective technique; even at young ages.

Other than that, I recommend withholding desserts, bicycles or TV privileges along with an increase of chores for the more severe violations. In worst case scenarios then were sent to their grandfather's house for a week - a veteran of both Wars and a master at instilling discipline.

I also used to have them write up apologies while they were grounded - I never grounded them for more than a few days.

With children, punishment should also be a chance to learn and correct themselves. They must be always told why they are being punished and always be assured that you love them regardless of whether or not they get dessert that night.

The most troublesome one (the youngest) is now a Lieutenant in the Canadian Armed Forces, and another one is a Brigadier General. My kids don't hit their kids either.

[edit on 30-11-2008 by Canadianduder]

reply to post by CaptainCaveMan

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Very sad. Why do unstable parents have access to unptotected kids?

Once again, my coffee cup's worth is required.

SO, it appears that some child, an American child, who happened to have access to a gun killed two grown men. Alright, the kid was obviously not insane, he wouldn't have been able to have detailed documentation of his discipline. ANYWHO... This child decided that he'd had enough and offed the men. Murder is murder regardless of who does it. If it were accidental, then that would be one thing, but the fact that he did grab the gun and shoot them is different.

I believe that in moderation, and combined with other forms of discipline, a physical discipline is a valid and effective form of discipline.

And, so people don't go off thinking I'm hating on Americans, I am one, I just thought I'd lay everything on the table. And it's just as easy to knife someone as to shoot them. Not as efficient mind you, but knives have been used as killing tools for thousands of years.

When you push someone to breaking point you should not be surprised if there are unpleasant consequences. Regardless of whether the consequences are legal or moral.

reply to post by Benarius

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Because anyone can have a child. There are no character or morality tests as to what kind of parent you can become before you breed. Hitler could have had dozens of them.

And in any system there will be too many needy and abused kids, and not enough social workers to notice, or have the power to do anything constructive at all. That's if the abused ones are even noticed.

Twins died in Australia not long ago:
Twin toddlers die of neglect
Nobody noticed. And those that might have, did nothing.

reply to post by Canadianduder

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I wasn't asking for the gory details, I was curious as to your stance on Child discipline. Wether you have kids or not is pertinent to that question and was valid. Sorry if you thought I was prying.

Your method of discipline is the one I follow, on the whole. But I will not rule out a clip round the ear or a smacked arse and will use it as a last resort. The problem with kids is that they quickly realise how to play the system and how to work around your discipline.

Sometimes, taking toys away, grounding or depriving them of dessert just doesn't work. I've often had one of mine turn round and say "So, I didn't want desert anyway" and carry on behaving like they did.

At that point is where they get a clip round the ear and sent to bed, or if it's during the day, plonking them outside in the garden regardless of the weather seems to work a treat too.

Sticking a misbehaving little oik in the garden for 5 mins when it's raining and 4c very quickly turns them from a gobby little kid into someone who is very much apologetic and has learnt they don't misbehave. The next time round you only have to threaten to use the same punishment and the result is the same. It's almost like a pavlovian response.

My partner on the other hand restricts her discipline to a mild telling off and empty threats, which the kids know she won't follow up on. When I am not there, they are terrors. When I am there, they behave. It's almost as if they have split personalities.

Kids are devious creatures and if you don't have wide range of tools, including spanking, and follow up on threats to employ them, you end up with horrible little turds.

reply to post by Kiltedninja

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So you honestly think that after the 1000th time the abusers would just stop?

You can't possibly believe that his tormentors weren't going to do it again - that is not how reality works. Do you really believe that the torment and abuse over and would not have happened again? Have you even read the thread or article?

This child was being abused. He was going to be abused again. We have 1000 precedents to substantiate that conclusion along with every other recorded case of real child abuse.

Most cases abuse end up with the victim dead. Somewhere between the one thousandth the one thousand and first incidents - this child defended himself. I am glad he had the means to do so. He would likely be killed one day - like many abused children eventually are. It doesn't take much to kill a child.

reply to post by Canadianduder

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It's a bit of a stretch to assume he would have ended up dead, isn't it?

As has been said before in this thread, what exactly was the nature of the "spankings"? If it's just a clip round the ear, he isn't going to die from that, is he?

Seems you are sensationalising this in order to try and push your point across.

Yeah, that's all great and all, but how about that information you've made a point about? I want to know more about the nature of the spankings. You're intimating you're better informed than I am on this story, so deny my apparent ignorance and provide some links that elaborate.

reply to post by stumason

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Still rationalizing the abuse I see.

You are right; he should have just let them beat him. He should have just took it like a man.
How would you feel if the abuse was sexual? would you still rationalize 1000 cases of rape so easily?

There is absolutely no reason to assume that abused children get killed by their abusers

That only happens in reality.

reply to post by Canadianduder

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Oh please!

What abuse?

Beating is.
Raping is.
Spanking isn't abuse.

Your really stretching with your argument here. Without knowing the nature of the alledged "abuse" how can one draw any conclusions whatsoever, not least that child could have died or that raping him would have been better.

How about an intelligent discussion based on facts, not a speculative one based on crap?

Just something I want to remind you of while you spend your hard earned time typing out words, *snip*
There is such a thing as ignore.
It kind of Deny's Ignorance.

Mod Note: General ATS Discussion Etiquette – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 11/30/08 by niteboy82]

reply to post by CaptainCaveMan

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Personal attacks are against the T&C's, Caveman.

You still sore about me confusing you as an American yesterday? Boy, talk about holding a grudge! You too could learn to bring facts to the table when engaging in a discussion, rather than what you did yesterday which was talk a bunch of rubbish.

EDIT: I might add that the ignore button only serves to block out the views of those who disagree with you. It might make you feel warm and fuzzy inside when you only see posts of people who agree with you, but it's rather close minded and not conducive to a healthy discussion.

And apparently I am the one with mental problems.

[edit on 30/11/08 by stumason]

reply to post by stumason

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So you are still of the mind that physical abuse is not de facto emotional abuse...

Are you purposefully ignoring the number of times this took place over the course of his 3000 day lifespan?

Debating this issue is as silly trying to win a who's right contest.

Christians vs Atheists
Vegans vs Carnivores
Spankers vs Light discipline

I for one was spanked often as a child because solitary confinement meant nothing to me, but a belt did. Im glad I was taught the in the way I was. I love my parents for it and understand the whole "this will hurt me more than you." phrase.

I see nothing in this article that suggests the boy was "tormented" only that his parent was hard on him.

So whats the big deal? All 3 of my Army drill Sgt's were hard on me when I was in the service and I love them too.

I have kids now and while I dont spank them per se, I do often give them a smack or two if they insist on acting like an ass. I dont think I can bring myself to spank them with anything more than my hand though.

It is all a cultural thing, not to mention generational. Times have changed and not necessarily for the better.

I dont know when "smacks" became "blows" the meaning may be similar but the fact is they are quite different. I didnt read that he was punching his son.

Besides as you can read the grandparents were pretty much worthless as all getout to stop it, so maybe the dad realising how worthless he turned out didnt want his son to become the same way and knew of no other way to instill discipline

reply to post by Canadianduder

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Any kind of punishment is "emotional abuse", as without any emotional attachment to the punishment, what has the child learnt? Children usually cry after you punish them, so they are emotionally upset as a result. Is this not "emotional abuse"?

Taking away their favourite toys is "emotional abuse", depriving them of a dessert and upsetting them is "emotional abuse".

I think your are making to much of a connection between spanking and emotion, without thinking about the emotional response to any other form of punishment.

reply to post by snowen20

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"So whats the big deal? All 3 of my Army drill Sgt's were hard on me when I was in the service and I love them too. "

You enlisted at 8 years of age? Wow...

Perhaps your analogy is a bit too far off the mark. Perhaps you should take into account the vast different between the two circumstances and edit your post. Or you could leave it for us to reference later in the thread