the reason I fear the God of the bible: science

Originally posted by noobfun
if only science could be boiled down to such a simple idea we could convert the masses without them needing to really think about what they are bieng told as the mystery makers of religeon do

I believe this happens already. In fact I've seen more than a few here at ATS who offhandedly dismiss things, giving the reason that there is no science to back it up.

Either side, religion or science, is prone to the inappropriate assumption that the answer lies in their province alone.

I agree with Albert Einstein when he said, "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

Originally posted by Avenginggecko

Originally posted by reject

1. fornication (perverse sex) & promiscuosity
   
2. eating of blood & strangled beasts that weren't thoroughly bled
   
3. incestual relationships
   

I'd just like to point out that the negative effects of all of these things are science for one simple reason: observable fact. Everything you have listed could be seen and noted over the course of generations of families.

When you show me evidence that the Hebrews were all promiscuous , fornicating, blood drinking, and sleeping with their parents and siblings until one day God came down and told them not to, then I'll believe your assertion that it was God.

Until then, I'll have to believe that it was more likely learned by the tribes over time that this stuff was harmful to people.

I'll illustrate an example: When Europeans came to Africa, they landed in South Africa, which has a climate very similar to Europe. They very successfully farmed and developed the land, and then began to further expand their land. Also, they brought smallpox with them and decimated the local populations with disease.

When they moved farther north into Africa they crossed the Tropic of Capricorn and the climate changed fundamentally from a European climate to a tropical climate. When the Europeans began to settle around the rivers and the valleys, they wondered why the native Africans all settled in high, dry places, and in small groups. Soon, the settlers began to succumb to Malaria, their fields would not grow crops (because European crops need four seasons and the tropics only have wet and dry seasons), and their cattle all began to die off quickly.

However, the native Africans seemed unaffected by Malaria, they were able to grow their crops well, and the smallpox that killed southern Africans did not affect them. Why is this?

Over time, Africans learned to stay away from the rivers where Malaria carrying mosquitoes bred and fed, to live in small groups to isolate any spread of the disease, they learned which crops could grow in a dry/wet climate, and their bodies and their cattle were very resistant to the strains of Malaria at the time.

Smallpox, which originated from cattle in Africa, did not affect the Africans or their herds.

This is an example of a culture that probably predates Judaism that learned how to stay healthy and alive without the assistance of divine rules, and I believe the same can be applied to the standards you put forth in the list.


Thanks for taking the time to read my post. Good day

[edit on 28-11-2008 by Avenginggecko]

[edit on 28-11-2008 by Avenginggecko]

He tells the truth, folks. Also religion is control. All the rules have the ultimate goal of conforming people to a certain behaviour. But, of course, any religion seeks the prosperity and continuation of their people, (if the religion works in making your people healthy, wealthy and numerous, hell, keep it) so in it are many teachings. This I believe is the only real value in religion. There IS wisdom in scripture. But as the ages pass, we see more, understand more and are capable of more, so wisdom is either inevitably expanded or changed. I know it can be a big surprise when you find something in the bible that makes sense, so I understand all the excitement. But remember, you only know that it makes sense, 'cause science told you so. Before it was just good advice.

reply to post by TravelerintheDark


but your forgetting to mention he also said

"I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. [He was speaking of Quantum Mechanics and the breaking down of determinism.] My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God." - Albert Einstein 'The Human Side', 1954

"Scientists were rated as great heretics by the church, but they were truly religious men because of their faith in the orderliness of the universe." - Albert Einstein

einstein didnt beleive in god

he beleived as hawkings does and most physacists do that there are ultimate governing laws of nature that so far are beyond our comrehension

the god of physics is the ultimate undertsanding of physical law (science)

so you agreeing with him is agreeing that nature(everything physical) is infact the only way to view the universe anything else is just a poor excuse to save us actually trying to understand it and there is nothing worth while out side of it to pay attention too (such as magical beings like the gods of our fairy tales)



[edit on 29/11/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by noobfun
einstein didnt beleive in god

he beleived as hawkings does and most physacists do that there are ultimate governing laws of nature that so far are beyond our comrehension

the god of physics is the ultimate undertsanding of physical law (science)

so you agreeing with him is agreeing that nature(everything physical) is infact the only way to view the universe anything else is just a poor excuse to save us actually trying to understand it and there is nothing worth while out side of it to pay attention too (such as magical beings like the gods of our fairy tales)

Actually, I do agree with that to an extent, with the exception of nature as only what we can perceive as "physical". To the point, what is physically observable about a black hole other than its invisible forces acting on physical objects? Which is why I have a personal disdain for words like supernatural and paranormal as I believe there is nothing that can be experienced that is beyond what is natural whether we understand it as such or not. Commonality of experience is another matter, as is the meaning of our experiences.

I don't believe, and it may only be my understanding, that Einstein did not believe in god, but rather he didn't believe in the idea that god is exclusively humanistic in form and nature.

"There remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion." - Albert Einstein

Actually, I agree with him a great deal.

Edit to add: To keep this more to the topic, I'd like to state my point was not whether or not Einstein believed in god, but rather that neither religion nor science are complete answers, both relying on limited information.

[edit on 29-11-2008 by TravelerintheDark]

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark

Actually, I do agree with that to an extent, with the exception of nature as only what we can perceive as "physical". To the point, what is physically observable about a black hole other than its invisible forces acting on physical objects?

they broke the gap your gods hiding in sorry .... www.space.com... luckily now theres is a gap either side he can hide in for a while

Which is why I have a personal disdain for words like supernatural and paranormal as I believe there is nothing that can be experienced that is beyond what is natural whether we understand it as such or not.

by deffinition if it or its actions is unobservable it can only be supernatural in origin
the word acres not if you like or dislike it, its deffinition remains the same

Commonality of experience is another matter, as is the meaning of our experiences.

experience is completley falsafiable

its not reality its how your sense make sense of it and get it wrong

ever had the experience you think you can hear voices? you can accept theya re voices or you can get up and go closer to the sound and as you get closer it stops becoming voices and becomes a natural sound you brain confused

belief of all sorts tells us to stay on our ass and accept, reason and curiosity tells us to go check it out

the voices of god become the whistle of the wind

I don't believe, and it may only be my understanding, that Einstein did not believe in god, but rather he didn't believe in the idea that god is exclusively humanistic in form and nature.

behold the god of the physacists - the theory of unification be its name

"There remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion." - Albert Einstein

a beautful way to describe his god

which is so very different to yours

Actually, I agree with him a great deal.

just not on gods it seems

Originally posted by noobfun
belief of all sorts tells us to stay on our ass and accept, reason and curiosity tells us to go check it out

Exactly the point I was making by saying that neither science nor religion are complete answers.

Thanks for the article. I was aware of the theory, but hadn't read yet that it had been proven.

reply to post by TravelerintheDark


but by that deffinition religeon is willingly ignorant it choses not to understand not to answer at all

and to have faith is to embrace its desire for ignorance

how all powerful can a thing be that reliese on your ignorance to be allpowerful ?

its the wizard of Oz

religeon and faith relise on you not peeking behind the curtain

when we discovered how rainbows happened god stopped hanging out his bow as a reminder and nature took over ... how long until the god of gaps has no gaps to hide in

how long until nature takes over everything he is said to do ?


the thread should have been named

Why i fear science: the god of the bible

[edit on 29/11/08 by noobfun]

[edit on 29/11/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by noobfun

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
In order to be forgiven you must sincerely want to be forgiven. If you don't believe in a God how can you sincerely want to be forgiven by God?

why should i seek forgivness from a bieng so flawed in his expectations and so flawed in his power that he made me this way, apparently very flawed

he should be seeking my forgivness for his failings

to punish someone for doing somthing you have forced them to do is the height of hipocracy and cruelty and blind stupidity

he better make sure its a dam good appology!

[edit on 29/11/08 by noobfun]

What? your flaws are things you can prevent by making a different choice. To say that you were made to make those chioces is not accepting the consequences of your own action. Lets say you go out to eat and you decide that you want to eat so you go to Burger King. You order 2 triple whoppers. Are you saying you shouldn't have to pay for the consequences of your action. When your lying in the hospital with a severe heart attack are you saying that its God's fault he made you so gluttonous. Or maybe, its yours. Maybe you should have showed some self control. There is nothing God forces you to do. you say lust, I say our culture and society has decided that we are going to respond to Hot Women in skanky clothes, thus it makes lust easier to prevail in our society. I mean I feel sorry for you if you believe that he should appologize to you. Even if he did make you flawed, as you state, and forced you to make certain decisions, did he not still give you life which in itself is enough to be thankful for?

The reality of the situation is that you made that decision because you chose it. God gave us the ability to be perfect, we just chose otherwise.

Originally posted by Ryanp5555

The reality of the situation is that you made that decision because you chose it. God gave us the ability to be perfect, we just chose otherwise.

unfortunatley the bible the book of your god says the opposite


5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

so god made the law to make sinners, he made us imperfect in his eyes on purpose. he made us flawed

1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

john 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

2 Thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

then blinded and deafened people so they could never hear jesus's words and become perfect he chose to keep me a flawed bieng

11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

then seeks to harm and punish me for his actions!

i owe him no appology but he obviously owes me and ever other none believers one too for HIS ACTIONS AND CHOICES

There always seems to be a God-bashing thread on this ATS site somewhere. It seems strange to pick on a subject where the author is not here to defend himself. I find most of the attacks uninformed anyway. For example, the very first attack on the thread: Genesis 1 is out of order. Well, it all happened in a 24 hour day, to begin with. We know it had to be 24 hours because (1) He said so and (2) the co-dependence of things makes it mandatory. For example, you need plants to feed the animals, you need sun to grow the plants.

I find that most people don't believe the Bible because they think of God as less powerful than all-powerful. Anybody that can "snap their fingers" and make a universe can do any d*** thing they want, anytime they want, anywhere they want and they don't need to worry about what you think, unless of course you can also snap your fingers and make anything at all.

I fear the "God" of the Bible because he's a blood thirsty psychopath, as one poster suggested. I mean come on, if you can't see that the God depicted in the Bible(especially the Old Testament) isn't a prejudice, sadistic, sexist, homophobic, misanthropic being, then you could not have possibly been reading the same book as I was. I was raised Christian/Catholic, and I abandoned the book of hatred/fairy tales long ago.

Originally posted by Jim Scott
There always seems to be a God-bashing thread on this ATS site somewhere. It seems strange to pick on a subject where the author is not here to defend himself.

well if he can be bothered to come and oin in were hapy for him to do so

I find most of the attacks uninformed anyway. For example, the very first attack on the thread: Genesis 1 is out of order. Well, it all happened in a 24 hour day, to begin with. We know it had to be 24 hours because (1) He said so and (2) the co-dependence of things makes it mandatory. For example, you need plants to feed the animals, you need sun to grow the plants.

uninformed in the fact all evidence says its wrong?

uninformed in the fact its impossible, as well as improbable

the odds of every natural process happening by accindent even if it isnt guided by the rules of our universe which stop it becoming accidental

including the forming of everything, abiogenesis, evolution everything still fall sort of the staggering odds that a magical figure did it, or even that you got the right guy

it appears the uninformed is not us

we even know from genetics thier was life on earth long before plants, thats why plants carry genetic markers from early animalistic life but animals dont share any plant ones

I find that most people don't believe the Bible because they think of God as less powerful than all-powerful.

or that he is impossible and improbable and built on lies and paradoxs that cannot exist

and this unchanging all knowing all powerful bieng(its self a paradox) changes his mind so often lacks the simple power to prove himself and as the bible shows often doesnt know everything

Anybody that can "snap their fingers" and make a universe can do any d*** thing they want, anytime they want, anywhere they want and they don't need to worry about what you think, unless of course you can also snap your fingers and make anything at all.

no proof only faith in paradox and improbability and ignorance

the later one you seem to be displaying in abundance

reply to post by GeeGee

well said

star for critical analysis for you

I would disagree with the premise of this thread.

The Bible is not a scientific text. There are things in there that folks should not have known in the field of science, but at no time do I see this as a scientific text.

Those who disbelieve tend to quote the scientific dogma of the moment, which changes like the wind. New discoveries are made every day, nullifying older truths - every day.

This isn't about atheism, agnosticism, Christianity, or Judaeism. This is about touting an opinion which so far, seems to have failed to change anyone's mind.

To fear God would appear prudent. Regardless of His lack of scientific data included in His Book of Instruction.

A lot of argument comparing apples to oranges.

Kinda silly, isn't it?

reply to post by noobfun


you know I wanna debate with, I deleted this from the bottom of my last message because I didn't want to come off rude, but really, there is no point either way. Why do you sit in this forum attacking people who believe in God? If it makes them happy, why the hell do you care? I used to get in plenty of debates with people like you and its tiring and pointless. you won't change my pov and i won't change yours. You seem very intelligent, but what you have in intelligence you lack in grace. You need grace to live happy. G'day

Also, I'd like to clarify a few things before I just go: 1. When you quote the bible you should tell us where 5:21 is, and so on. 2. There are only a few sections that I take to heart, one being the Gospel 3. You look to science, and even that video you have posted, and you criticize others for the loopholes in their beliefs, yet you don't look at the major loopholes in science. instead you say, oh they'll figure it out someday. 4. I never claimed the bible was wholly accurate, we do all have the potential to act as perfect human beings on earth after Birth, we just dont.

Originally posted by Ryanp5555

you know I wanna debate with, I deleted this from the bottom of my last message because I didn't want to come off rude,

you still havnt really not compared to some of the crap flung my way

but really, there is no point either way.

theres always as point

Why do you sit in this forum attacking people who believe in God?

self defense to refute lies and false hoods, a whole gammit of reasons and its less attack more discuss

though i will get rather sarcastic if im attacked or they display pure stupidity and ignorance

If it makes them happy, why the hell do you care?

why the hell dont you care? when children are taught .. no dam near brainwashed into beleiving and taught that any other kind of belief is bad and that they shouldnt think for them selves and should deny anything that doesnt fit the faith they have had placed upon them

why not give them chance to actually grow and understand just what it is?

give them the choice and not to feel they are doing wrong by making up thier own mind

why should i care that people spread ignorance of topics they no nothing of and limit someone else's chance to learn and understand

if they chose it and it makes them happy fine carry on, not a problem they chose it after being given the chance to seek exactly what alternates are out there

but how many people can really say that?

I used to get in plenty of debates with people like you and its tiring and pointless

no it just seems it

you won't change my pov

who says thats my goal?

and i won't change yours.

thats easy to do evidence any real and subjective factual evidence will do

You seem very intelligent,

thank you, ill accept it as full compliment not the 1/2 one it is with the but attached

but what you have in intelligence you lack in grace.

i use the tool required

why use a hammer to open a nut its over kill

why use a nut cracker to break a rock its under kill

You need grace to live happy. G'day

no you need happyness to live happily

by grace your changing the meaning to fit somthing else i suspect

reply to post by noobfun


I started reading your post, but then I realized "Why would I listen to someone who can't even spell simple words?!?!"

farthers side
second comming
impossability
realsie
bieng


Try spell check and I might take you more seriously.

hell even jesus is his own dad bieng god - thats super incest

the thread should have been named

Why i fear science: the god of the bible

no proof, only faith in paradox, improbability and ignorance

i use the tool required

why use a hammer to open a nut its over kill

why use a nut cracker to break a rock its under kill

gracefully put



You need grace to live happy. G'day

no you need happyness to live happily

so true

noobfun im loving your posts mate, you've got a great way with words so
stars for you me thinks.

reply to post by noobfun


haha, yes by grace I mean sincerity or the ability to be humble. I don't know you in real life, obviously, so I guess it was unfair of me to say you have none. You say you need happiness to live happily, yes that's obviously correct, but you can't have happiness if you aren't graceful. And please, we aren't talking about Jesus here. The grace I'm talking about could just be not showing someone else up, catching your tongue before you insult someone, not talking down to someone, etc. I say you need this to be happy only because it is a sign of a good person, and the knowledge that you are a good person, or are being a good person, is enough to make someone happy with themselves. And you can't be happy if you aren't happy with yourself. I guess it's probably just me who is sick of all these arguments, and yes I could prove you wrong with facts. But I clearly don't have any and that is the point of believing.

I agree with you, it is asinine for our children to believe in something blindly. People should always look into something thoroughly before they just believe. I think schools should NOT teach Creationism as this isn't 1400 AD. It is similar to saying that we should teach that the Earth is the center of the Universe. However, when we teach a subject like the Big Bang theory, which goes against so many kids beliefs, the teacher should also be obliged to say, "Hey, this doesn't mean that there is no God, nor does it mean that there is. Science is still struggling to answer how those initial (what were they Protons and Electrons?) developed because energy cannot be created from nothing. And while there are theories, whether it be God or whatever, nothing has a definite answer yet, and we are still searching." This way you don't eliminate God in some kids minds who refuse to look further into it, and we offer an alternative belief system for those kids who want to strictly believe in creationism. Plus, the majority who fall in between, can look up the information themselves. Maybe you disagree, but that's just how I feel.