Miami judge rules against Florida gay adoption ban

Originally posted by leo123
Homosexuality does occur in all species, but it is certainly not normal, it is genetic flaw.

looks like an attack to me.

Originally posted by outrider

Originally posted by leo123
Homosexuality does occur in all species, but it is certainly not normal, it is genetic flaw.

looks like an attack to me.

Looks like a factual observation to me. Attacks are personal, that was not.

So based upon some perceived notion that the children would be made fun of and specious genetic arguments, this makes the situation utterly uninhabitable for children. You seem to be hiding behind a canard my friend.

[edit on 26-11-2008 by round_eyed_dog]

Originally posted by leo123
As usual, when gays make their demands they only think of themselves in a very selfish manner and not about the implications of what they are trying to impose upon other people.
[edit on 25-11-2008 by leo123]

looks like an attack to me, strike two, if this were baseball you wouldn only have one more

Originally posted by round_eyed_dog
So based upon some perceived notion that the children would be made fun of and specious genetic arguments, this makes the situation utterly uninhabitable for children. You seem to be hiding behind a canard my friend.

[edit on 26-11-2008 by round_eyed_dog]

I could make the same argument you have why men are largely denied custody of their children in divorce cases.

It's wouldn't, however, change reality.

[edit on 26-11-2008 by leo123]

I have always wanted to adopt a child and now it seems that may be possible in Florida where I live. The problem is...will this issue end up on a ballot in a couple years and my child that I have adopted get taken away from me? I imagine if that happens you will see a lot more action from us gays than just a few picketing here and there. If someone tries to take my child away from me, they better shoot me.

reply to post by leo123


Why don’t you stop your spouting off and back up your statement with sources.

Homosexuality does occur in all species, but it is certainly not normal, it is genetic flaw.

Put another way, if it was "normal" that species would become extinct in short order.

, but it is certainly not normal, it is genetic flaw.

Said whom? Do you have research to back up your statement?

If everyone had logic like you, then man would become extinct.

Why don’t you answer any of your questions, which I have asked you to answer?
You are in a “DEBATE” forum, not a chat room in AOL!

reply to post by leo123

sadisticwoman:

This discussion has nothing to do with ignorance or homophobia. Bring up these cards only re-enforces my comment that gays make demands like this in a selfish manner and could care less about the implication of their demands upon others.

I repeat again, this discussion is about, "what is in the CHILD'S best interests".

So, now you are qualified to know what the child interests are.
You ramble these ridiculous statements with no merit of truth, it really shows you have a genuine hatred against gay people. Ether you have been brain washed, or you had a bad experience in a gay relationship.

Being gay is a lifestyle. Like someone pointed out there is a reason a man and a woman makes a baby. If a man and a man or a woman and a woman could do it then I wouldnt have issues. Gays have the right to be gay in my eyes that is their choice. They have rights to a civil union also because being gay and being in a civil union does not affect anyone else. When you start infringing on others liberties ie adoption or those ridiculous gay day parades where people run around with a$$le$$ chaps then that is when the subject changes. Gays should not be allowed to adopt. At that point it infringes on someone elses liberties. Please dont compare this to the civil rights movement it is not the same. Being black is not a lifestyle its a race. Being gay is a lifestyle not a race or a religion.

reply to post by mybigunit

Being gay is a lifestyle.

That is your opinion nothing more. However, I am gay and I have been in the same relationship for sixteen years with the same man. My partner and I do not feel we live in any strange “lifestyle”. We live the same lifestyle as any married couple live.

If a man and a man or a woman and a woman could do it then I wouldnt have issues.

You would! How can that bother you? What are you afraid of?

When you start infringing on others liberties ie adoption or those ridiculous gay day parades where people run around with a$$le$$ chaps then that is when the subject changes.

Really! Ok, lets infringe on your liberties, ok let pass some laws that take your rights away from you just “you”. Let us say if you are a woman let pass a law that will not allow you to vote. Ya, lets go back in the day when woman were not allow to vote, or you are not allow you a pay raise, or do joint taxes return, or let you have a final say when your love one is dieing in the hospital because the law dose not recognized your last will of testament.

Ya, lets go back when black people were not allow shop in the same stores as whites or share the same bathrooms as whites or drink out the fountains as whites people drank from. Ya, with thinking like this who needs America, screw freedom! Who needs it as long as I have *my* rights, because the law recognized me, lol you talk about infringements! You pale, are infringing on my rights to be treated equally!

If gay people want to run around in chaps that is their business, however if it bother “you” so much then don’t watch it .

Gays should not be allowed to adopt

Ok, only straight people are qualified to raise children, let us have a look what makes them so qualified. The child abuse in this Country is out of control with the drugs and alcoholic parents, and many straight men raping their children boys and girls. Bad marriages on the rocks, and unemployment at it”s all time high. Ya I see your point alright.
We, meaning “you” are afraid of gay people who adopt children are afraid that gay people can turn straight children GAY! WOW! The “POWER” you give to gay people is awesome! Its so funny, Hitler thought that the Jews had this kind of power and he order six million to be slaughter. This is the same kind of thinking that “you” present here.


What do you think a gay life style is?

My opinion is all couples straight and “gay” should take a course in child rearing before even considering raising or adopting children. Gay people make wonderful loveing parents to their children and that my dear is a *fact*.

Originally posted by cashlink
reply to post by mybigunit

That is your opinion nothing more. However, I am gay and I have been in the same relationship for sixteen years with the same man. My partner and I do not feel we live in any strange “lifestyle”. We live the same lifestyle as any married couple live.

Thats great Im glad to hear that. Maybe more straight people need to follow your lead and not getting with someone and leaving. The fact is being gay is a lifestyle. If it was natural to be gay then men and men would be able to conceive. Im glad that everyone wasnt gay Im glad some men take one for the team so to speak to keep the human race alive.

You would! How can that bother you? What are you afraid of?

Not afraid of anything. I deal with gay people on a daily basis. I own a decorative plumbing company and deal with gay designers and go to lunch with them on a daily basis. As I stated above being gay doesnt make you a bad person nor did I say it was a bad lifestyle. I just said its a lifestyle. Most of the gay people I am around happen to be fun people. Doesnt change my opinion though.

Really! Ok, lets infringe on your liberties, ok let pass some laws that take your rights away from you just “you”. Let us say if you are a woman let pass a law that will not allow you to vote. Ya, lets go back in the day when woman were not allow to vote, or you are not allow you a pay raise, or do joint taxes return, or let you have a final say when your love one is dieing in the hospital because the law dose not recognized your last will of testament.

Ya, lets go back when black people were not allow shop in the same stores as whites or share the same bathrooms as whites or drink out the fountains as whites people drank from. Ya, with thinking like this who needs America, screw freedom! Who needs it as long as I have *my* rights, because the law recognized me, lol you talk about infringements! You pale, are infringing on my rights to be treated equally!

If gay people want to run around in chaps that is their business, however if it bother “you” so much then don’t watch it .

Once again you are using the terms woman and black. They dont have the choice to be a woman or a black. Gay people choose to live that lifestyle. No one is telling you that you cant live that lifestyle. Im not saying you cant go out in public or sit on a bus or even vote. Im saying that you shouldnt be able to adopt. Not because you may or may not be a bad person. Because of the effects on society that it will have.

Ok, only straight people are qualified to raise children, let us have a look what makes them so qualified. The child abuse in this Country is out of control with the drugs and alcoholic parents, and many straight men raping their children boys and girls. Bad marriages on the rocks, and unemployment at it”s all time high. Ya I see your point alright.
We, meaning “you” are afraid of gay people who adopt children are afraid that gay people can turn straight children GAY! WOW! The “POWER” you give to gay people is awesome! Its so funny, Hitler thought that the Jews had this kind of power and he order six million to be slaughter. This is the same kind of thinking that “you” present here.


What do you think a gay life style is?

My opinion is all couples straight and “gay” should take a course in child rearing before even considering raising or adopting children. Gay people make wonderful loveing parents to their children and that my dear is a *fact*.

Im not saying all straight couples can raise a kid either. You wont get me to disagree there. This is why we have laws that if parents are pushing a lifestyle on their kids that is not satisfactory generally they get snatched up. That lifestyle being drugs, abuse, and what not. Sometimes the parents dont get caught and it is sad and I feel for the kids. You are pushing your lifestyle on impressionable kids. The effects on society will be harmed Im sorry that is my opinion. I mean think of the kid who has to say "Yeah Mrs Teacher my dad and dad will be here tonight to pick me up" Hmmm doesnt sound right does it?

Umm as far as Hitler no Im not saying gays have any power nor did I ever say that gays should be killed. Id lose a lot of clients if all the gays were killed You can live whatever lifestyle you want I have no issues there. Im not even saying gays shouldnt be able to participate in a civil union. Im saying you shouldnt be able to adopt.

Also I want to point out that on this site you and I agree on many issues. Because you are gay does not make me afraid or make me not like you. I think your view of the world is spot on in many aspects. I just dont agree with you here. I know you have a horse in this race I understand. But dont take my disagreeing with you on this issue as fear towards gays.

[edit on 26-11-2008 by mybigunit]

reply to post by mybigunit


Please answer this one question for me,

If it was natural to be gay then men and men would be able to conceive.

Who is saying it is not natural to be gay? Last time I check

All of the research that has surfaced in the past century reflects an interesting pattern of social acceptability of homosexuality. What was once thought of as a negative and controllable defect, is now recognized and embraced by many. While society is far from fully accepting homosexuality as a cultural norm, it has entered the public sphere as a subject worthy of discourse, rather than feared and ignored. It is in this sense that scientists are able to invest more of their time and money into researching homosexuality. In addition, the study of homosexuality itself both in its cultural causes and social effects, such as AIDS, depression, gender roles, marriage laws, has gained world wide attention. The research presented is far from conclusive, and generally generates more questions than it answers. It is uncertain whether or not humans will truly understand the relationship between nature and nurture and the intricate balance of biological or genetic effects and learned cultural behavior. After seeing some of the evidence about biological theories of homosexuality, I am not completely convinced of researchers conclusions. However, I do believe that it presents the interesting point that one cannot consider homosexuality to be a purely psychological or behavioral characteristic, completely disregarding any evidence of biological or genetic influence. After all, in our society, where in some places homosexuals are treated with little respect, and often times, are met with hostility, why would one choose to be gay?

serendip.brynmawr.edu...

This is one reason why Gay people should be allowed to adopt children.
This is also why gay people make good parents. I hope this will change your views on Homosexual parents, after many studies it is proven they make wonderful parents.

AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS

Technical Report: Coparent or Second-Parent Adoption by Same-Sex Parents
Ellen C. Perrin, MD and Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health

A growing body of scientific literature demonstrates that children who grow up with 1 or 2 gay and/or lesbian parents fare as well in emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as do children whose parents are heterosexual. Children’s optimal development seems to be influenced more by the nature of the relationships and interactions within the family unit than by the particular structural form it takes.


RESEARCH EVIDENCE

Children’s Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation
The gender identity of preadolescent children raised by lesbian mothers has been found consistently to be in line with their biologic sex. None of the more than 300 children studied to date have shown evidence of gender identity confusion, wished to be the other sex, or consistently engaged in cross-gender behavior. No differences have been found in the toy, game, activity, dress, or friendship preferences of boys or girls who had lesbian mothers, compared with those who had heterosexual mothers

Children’s Emotional and Social Development
Children born to and raised by lesbian couples also seem to develop normally in every way. Ratings by their mothers and teachers have demonstrated children’s social competence and the prevalence of behavioral difficulties to be comparable with population norms.8,24 In fact, growing up with parents who are lesbian or gay may confer some advantages to children. They have been described as more tolerant of diversity and more nurturing toward younger children than children whose parents are heterosexual.25,26
In 1 study, children of heterosexual parents saw themselves as being somewhat more aggressive than did children of lesbians, and they were seen by parents and teachers as more bossy, negative, and domineering. Children of lesbian parents saw themselves as more lovable and were seen by parents and teachers as more affectionate, responsive, and protective of younger children, compared with children of heterosexual parents.25,27 In a more recent investigation, children of lesbian parents reported their self-esteem to be similar to that of children of heterosexual parents and saw themselves as similar in aggressiveness and sociability.15
Recent investigations have attempted to discern factors that promote optimal well-being of children who have lesbian parents. The adjustment of children who have 2 mothers seems to be related to their parents’ satisfaction with their relationship and specifically with the division of responsibility they have worked out with regard to child care and household chores.28 Children with lesbian parents who reported greater relationship satisfaction, more egalitarian division of household and paid labor,29 and more regular contact with grandparents and other relatives30 were rated by parents and teachers to be better adjusted and to have fewer behavioral problems.
Children in all family constellations have been described by parents and teachers to have more behavioral problems when parents report more personal distress and more dysfunctional parent-child interactions. In contrast, children are rated as better adjusted when their parents report greater relationship satisfaction, higher levels of love, and lower interparental conflict regardless of their parents’ sexual orientation. Children apparently are more powerfully influenced by family processes and relationships than by family structure.

SUMMARY
The small and nonrepresentative samples studied and the relatively young age of most of the children suggest some reserve. However, the weight of evidence gathered during several decades using diverse samples and methodologies is persuasive in demonstrating that there is no systematic difference between gay and nongay parents in emotional health, parenting skills, and attitudes toward parenting. No data have pointed to any risk to children as a result of growing up in a family with 1 or more gay parents. Some among the vast variety of family forms, histories, and relationships may prove more conducive to healthy psychosexual and emotional development than others.
Research exploring the diversity of parental relationships among gay and lesbian parents is just beginning. Children whose parents divorce (regardless of sexual orientation) are better adjusted when their parents have high self-esteem, maintain a responsible and amicable relationship, and are currently living with a partner.22,31 Children living with divorced lesbian mothers have better outcomes when they learn about their mother’s homosexuality at a younger age, when their fathers and other important adults accept their mother’s lesbian identity, and perhaps when they have contact with other children of lesbians and gay men.22,24 Parents and children have better outcomes when the daunting tasks of parenting are shared, and children seem to benefit from arrangements in which lesbian parents divide child care and other household tasks in an egalitarian manner28 as well as when conflict between partners is low. Although gay and lesbian parents may not, despite their best efforts, be able to protect their children fully from the effects of stigmatization and discrimination, parents’ sexual orientation is not a variable that, in itself, predicts their ability to provide a home environment that supports children’s development.
COMMITTEE ON PSYCHOSOCIAL ASPECTS OF CHILD AND FAMILY HEALTH, 2000–2001
Joseph F. Hagan, Jr, MD, Chairperson
William L. Coleman, MD
Jane M. Foy, MD
Edward Goldson, MD
Barbara J. Howard, MD
Ana Navarro, MD
J. Lane Tanner, MD
Hyman C. Tolmas, MD
LIAISONS
F. Daniel Armstrong, PhD
Society of Pediatric Psychology
David R. DeMaso, MD
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
Peggy Gilbertson, RN, MPH, CPNP
National Association of Pediatric Nurse Practitioners
Sally E. A. Longstaffe, MD
Canadian Paediatric Society
CONSULTANTS
George J. Cohen, MD
Ellen C. Perrin, MD
STAFF
Karen Smith

aappolicy.aappublications.org...;109/2/341?fulltext=homosexuality&searchid=QID_NOT_SET

www.jeramyt.org...





[edit on 11/26/2008 by cashlink]

[edit on 11/26/2008 by cashlink]

[edit on 11/26/2008 by cashlink]

Originally posted by TheRedneck
I really am not too concerned about the adoption part of this. I'm not a child psychologist. Whatever is best for the children should be first and foremost.

What I am concerned about is this:

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
I'm glad to see this and hope to see more of the courts intervening where the electorate has lost their way.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Democracy is flawed.

One judge just overruled the citizenry, yet again. And that judge is praised for it, yet again.

*snip*

Remember that this ruling was based on 'equal protection under the law', not on the best interests of the children. It was based on the desires of the prospective adopting parents. Is that not a concern, that the ruling was based on the adults' desires and not the children's need? Or is any excuse OK as long as the result agrees with what you think? Do the ends justify the means?

Remember this warning: when control of the law is taken from the majority and placed into the hands of the few, the law is out of control. A law which is out of control will be abused by someone in power; that has never failed in the history of mankind. Be careful what you ask for; you just might get it.

Redneck – thanks as usual for bringing a worthwhile perspective to the opposite side of an issue

I think that the judiciary serves as a valuable balance to democracy, and that this is actually a case where we can see why we need specially trained experts in law to make sure that we don't let a popular cause undermine the protections to individual rights given in our Constitution or legislated by our state and federal representatives.

It is precisely because this decision was made based on "equal protection under the law" instead of some notion of "it's best for the kids" that it is a good example of how the judicial branch functions.

Now, it is up to the agencies that regulate adoption to ascertain whether or not a household is a good adoptive prospect, without reference to sexual orientation, but with reference to all the other criteria that an adoptive household must meet – financial and social stability, etcetera.

I think I made a much better parent than my brother's ex wife does. In other posts of mine you can find my experience with it. Still I have to compensate for my ex sister in law as I had to explain the monthly to my niece because her mother didn't want to talk about "Monkeys" and let her go everywhere unsanitary.

Not being an expert on how women do things I had to call up my friend Theresa to get information from a woman's point of view which worked well. Anyway I had to still listen to the shrew complain because I explained the dirty word "vagina" to my niece. Being off drugs certainly didn't make her brighter. Anyway it was I that had to go shopping and teach my niece how to handle herself...oh well.

Anyway go Florida! Any child that is well taken care of is ok in my book. My niece and nephew are doing just fine. A friend to my family Carl raised his niece after his sister died. She too is doing quite well and just married.





[edit on 29/11/2008 by toochaos4u]