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Time: how past and future interact

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posted on Nov, 18 2008 @ 09:16 PM
Most people think of time in linear terms. The past can't be changed or added to, and the future isn't set. I've come to believe that this is only partially true.

There are oddities that happen. Deja vu, precognitive dreams, and even things which seem to affect the past from the future (otherwise known as retrocausality). An example: a person prays for something and the prayer is answered, but events were set in motion before the prayer itself. People often refer to this as "God works in mysterious ways". But things are only mysterious when we don't understand them.

Having experienced a fair bit of retrocausality myself, I've devoted a great deal of thought to the subject. For me it's not a matter of proving it's existence, but rather getting a better understanding of how it works.

Consider this: Time is 2 dimensional.

You have one flow of time running in one direction... the knowledge timeline. To understand the knowledge timeline, you must understand association.

Everything in the universe is based on association. To create a new element you smash two elements together. To create a new word you combine previously existing words. Even new ideas are generated by a combination of old ones. But it all has to start somewhere, and from something simple. It has to start with 1.

The following is an example of new associations being created. For simplicity's sake I've used numbers.

click for animation

Now, consider that all of time, from beginning to end, exists in between the two 1s at either side of the animation. At first life is very simple. There's a beginning and an end. Then more is added using the original components. It happens slowly at first, but it grows ever faster and increases in complexity. Before you know it, the universe is expanding at an breakneck pace. But here's the thing: Time is also expanding. To get a better idea, see the next diagram:

click for diagram

The growth of knowledge doesn't run parallel with, but rather perpendicular to the storytime, or what we know of as 'past' and 'future'. New knowledge is constantly being added to the storytime, thereby increasing the richness and complexity of the entire timeline. And this happens in large part due to our creative minds. Every time a new idea is created anywhere in time, it effects the whole timeline. And since we have the potential for creativity, that effectively makes us co-creators of reality.

The universe is like a constantly updated holo-novel, and we're doing the updating.

posted on Nov, 19 2008 @ 02:56 AM
Well...Brilliantly explained and seen! ...

I've got nothing to more add really... though lots to think about

posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 03:46 PM
Here's a diagram showing the first few cycles:

As you can see, the ends of time remain the same. It's the parts in between that continue to grow and become more complex... and at an exponential rate too (binary expansion).

Remember you can't create something from nothing. So instead the only "something" that exists must continue splitting into smaller parts while remaining the same size as a whole. The size of the 'whole universe' is 0, or infinity. To clarify, "infinity" doesn't only mean 'infinitely large', it also means 'infinitely small'. A difficult concept to grasp. The size of the universe can't be measured except in relation to it's parts.

In the diagram, imagine the different waveforms as alternate timelines. At the top and bottom is the zero-point, where all timelines converge. There are also smaller convergence points throughout.

The present:
This is where it gets confusing, because it exists in two dimensions. There's the "present" from a universal perspective, and a "present" from the timeline perspective. Understand that certain events have existed on the timeline (in both past and future) for a while now, but there are also certain events which have only recently started existing.

[edit on 12/6/2008 by Kruel]

posted on Dec, 10 2008 @ 07:07 PM
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Extremely interesting concept.

It seems lacking in logic, in certain respects, but so does quantum physics in general.

I'll be giving this some thought.

Good post.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

posted on Dec, 10 2008 @ 07:22 PM
Beautiful post.

I'll admit that I have an easier time grasping stuff like this more intuitively/experientially than intellectually.

It may take another 500 years before the implications of this stuff are fully accepted (like: "What...we can change the past?")

posted on Dec, 10 2008 @ 07:31 PM

posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 09:11 AM
what you have outlined here goes straight to the heart of modern physics, and the structure of the universe in general.

the wave which you have illustrated generates two distinct formations. first, a nested series of spacial structures, which i will later refer to as "holons". second, nodes or intersections of the waveforms. what follows is a model of the universe which i have developed over the past several years. our two models can be mapped directly onto one another, and compliment each other.

i will describe each of these formations individually...

STRUCTURES. i prefer not to refer to particles or forces directly. i use the term "holon", which is a well established term. "holon" refers to any unified entity that is observed as part of a nested system. particles and energy states can all be termed as holons. in this model, the atom contains nested "holon pairs", the pair being created by a separation of exactly one dimension (perpendicular to). by nature of the holon pair, each holon is mutually exclusive to it's pair. as the pair is nested upwards, they become a single unit: a new holon on a higher dimension.

NODES: interference (or coherence) is caused by the opposing (or co-related) spin states of any pair of holons at their intersection. this creates a rapidly vibrating "string" at the node. this "string" defines the "quantum state" of the pair. the quantum state is then passed on to the next higher level dimensional holon.

the excitement doesn't stop there!

stong and weak forces are each 1 dimensional, and therefore interact across the 2nd dimension (quantum node), ascending upward they emerge as a 3rd dimensional holon. electro and magnetic forces are 3 dimensional, and therefore interact across the 4th dimension (time node), ascending upward they emerge as a 5th dimensioal holon. matter and energy are 5 dimensional, interact across the 6th dimension (gravity node), and emerge as an as-yet undefined 7th dimensional holon.

lastly, because the system is nested, observable characteristics are shared with higher and lower levels. therefore, we will expect to see behavioral similarities between 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th level holons. also the model predicts patterns of quantum (string/node) behavior across the 2nd, 4th, and 6th dimensions.

finally, for purposes of illustration of the nature of time specifically, your digram is sufficient. however, it fails to show how each nested holon pair are dimensionally perpendicular to each other. if you were to show these 90 degree angles including their motions, your diagram would have the shape of a toroid.

posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 09:08 PM
Interesting stuff tgidkp! Although I gotta admit you kinda lost me on some of it. Got any diagrams? Geometry is the language I speak. =]

I recognize that toroid. In fact it shares some similarity to the 3D model I created as I was visualizing these concepts. See my avatar, it's the same model.

Speaking of which, I feel I must explain in a bit more detail the reason for the waveform-like model used.

First I envisioned a point, a 0 dimensional entity, which splits in two. Note that splitting is the only thing it can do in the beginning. Remember knowledge by association. Heck, it can't even spin until there's two of them (because movement is relative). I'm assuming that these two points will share a connection of some sort, seeing as they're the only things in existence at this point.

Before I continue, I'll use this diagram for reference:

The first connection is the simplest, a straight line between the two points (z plane) making dimension one. The second dimension is formed by a new connection which originates at the sides (y plane) and connects with it's partner in a likely manner assuming the two points are mirror images of each other.

After this, it formed the basis for additional expansion. Interactions between the points forged new points and new connections as shown in my postings above.

I imagine the straight line as gravity (as gravity has no duality that we know of). The curved connections on the other hand show a clear duality, and may be related to quanta (light, electricity, 2D particles).

The 1st dimension is where new associations are created. How fast is thought anyway? Well how fast is gravity?

The 2nd dimension contains the timeline. You might think of the curvy connections as "branes" ala String theory.

I'll be back later with more.

[edit on 12/11/2008 by Kruel]

posted on Dec, 12 2008 @ 11:10 AM
geometry is the language that my model was born from as well. it is because of the similarities of our geometries that i have brought my model to your attention. i have only accomplished hand-drawn diagrams as of yet, so a full exposition is not possible. for now, so that you can easily draw parallels between yours and my models, i will re-use and re-interpret the diagram you posted earlier.

combined with the description and torus animation i posted earlier, this should clarify my model. as you can see, both of our models draw the same conclusions about the nature of time. the only thing that is missing is the perpendicular orientation of each holon-pair. your diagram, re-posted below, is also missing this 90 degree offset.

i am no good with drawing vectors, so i cannot show you what this would look like with the perpendicular orientation. suffice to say that the motion of your avatar animation would be identical to motion of the torus animation if you were to include the 90 degree offset for each holon pair.


clear as mud, huh?

(p.s. i am not trying to bury your model beneath my own. just 2 cents, thats all!)

[edit on 12-12-2008 by tgidkp]

[edit on 12-12-2008 by tgidkp]

posted on Dec, 12 2008 @ 11:15 PM
...just one last comment...

the axis upon which the [2D, 4D, 6D] even numbered dimensions intersect is KNOWLEDGE itself.

in your drawing above, you drew it as the Z axis.

and you asked? (what is the speed of gravity?!)

I ask You? = "what is the speed of knowledge?"

what is the speed of knowledge? that is the question!!!

the speed of knowledge can turn TIME itself.

posted on Dec, 12 2008 @ 11:36 PM

Originally posted by tgidkp
combined with the description and torus animation i posted earlier, this should clarify my model. as you can see, both of our models draw the same conclusions about the nature of time. the only thing that is missing is the perpendicular orientation of each holon-pair. your diagram, re-posted below, is also missing this 90 degree offset.

Your model is certainly similar. I've only gotten as far as 2 dimensions in my model, so it's incomplete. My main focus is on the function of time so you may be a bit ahead of me here with your extra dimensions. Though it looks like what you're referring to as extra dimensions are what I'm referring to as alternate timelines.

By the way, here's a top view of my model. Look familiar?

Interestingly, looking at a reflection of the sun will also display a similar looking interference pattern. As we know, light experiences no travel time. It essentially flattens the timeline from it's perspective.

And yes I agree with you about knowledge.
It has a timeline of it's own, and indeed new knowledge is what makes that timeline move. Also what I've been referring to as new associations, events, or interactions between existing knowledge. The other timeline is the relativity one, where movement is a factor rather than thought.

posted on Dec, 17 2008 @ 07:58 PM
Thought is likely eternal. In that case speed of thought would not be a part of the equation. Sounds silly I guess? It would be nice to travel the universe by simply thinking yourself to particular point and instantly you are there.

I have had many experiences where I just knew I had been there and done it before. Very wierd feeling.

posted on Dec, 17 2008 @ 08:55 PM
I recognize your brilliance and it looks as if every thing is moving along just fine.

If you continue, it just might have been you a bit older I saw in the vanishing vehicle...


Mitosis of the evolutionary macrocosom?

[edit on 17-12-2008 by antar]

posted on Apr, 15 2009 @ 01:31 AM
in order to ensure continuity, i am re-posting these images to the thread VIA the new media portal.

posted on Apr, 15 2009 @ 08:23 PM
Thanks tgidkp... I didn't realize one of my images was missing.

That reminds me, I've been meaning to post this. It's a simplified version of what I'm trying to convey without the bit about association since I've covered it already.

The observer is attached to timeline 1 which is measured by an increase in information. All observers exist simultaneously on this line. Think about that for a moment.

Timeline 2 is measured by movement through space. Our location on this timeline is relative but the entire timeline always exists and we are attached to it. Our unconscious mind 'sees' or 'senses' the entirety of this timeline all at once while our conscious mind focuses on a specific location. In effect, we exist in both linear and nonlinear time.

As far as the spacial dimensions, I think they're separate yet still connected. Imagine each observer as a separate universe (spherical projection) moving along these timelines as if they are on a rail. The standard human experience would have the observer moving along a diagonal path in between the two timelines. Take a ride in a fast spaceship or approach a gravity well and you'd move up the universal timeline faster than usual, but the information timeline remains attached to the observer like the speed of light.

posted on Apr, 15 2009 @ 11:26 PM
Niffty thread.. you just changed the time line! or did you?

One little snag i find here..if all idea's do infact change the time line of ones preception/reality.. would that not mean that infact it never did change and was always ment to be that way regardless of the choice you think you made ?

The loop we find ourself in is silly i do admit.. more so because its a something.. thefor every action that was not taken and taken was still the result of the first action "the creation"..

Now if i read your post/theread did time change? Yep how? well it changed becasue you made me think! what would that infact do? well i could change "past" ideas and can change future events "like another post in response to your next one" that i can probbly work out you will infact make in repsonce to thins one! "or maybe not" ; )

so what is time? well time is mmm the infinit amout of possiblitys all rolled into one.

is there a universal time? a constant time? i think so.. are we able to affect the phyical aspects of time aka time travel.. Nope! well not in this universe sadley

there is no movment in time as time is just like the bigger makes the model

if you look at a physical object.. its not infact soild its very very much empty under a microscope.. the attoms are all wizzin about.. but yet they are still

is that time? or is that only precived time? different levels of time? or is it both?

the future and the past do infact co ecsist at the very SAME time ; )

posted on Apr, 16 2009 @ 02:28 AM
There is a lot to be said about time. Fundamentally, time is a state of conscious observation, meaning that for the conscious observer, they have a sense of time, which in turn is a series of changes within a scope of perception.

The assumed Physical Universe operates on an observer model where by we observe chronological time in our assumed linear view, however the Total Universe which is also composed of hyper-dimensionality enters into time as a synchronized wave like concentric circles.

It observes all time and no time at once, and can interject conscious awareness into any vector on the wave.

When it comes to understanding consciousness and time, we need to observe that time for consciousness is also psychological and can be created and expanded outside the metronome of physical time.

For example, I have had a lucid dream last for two weeks of observed time, and my physical body only experienced 30 minutes of sleep.

These rare moments of perception during dreaming where time suddenly becomes a conscious phenomena, and not a physical one demonstrates some of the more phenomenological nature of consciousness.

Now more to the point, we have precognition which demonstrates a non-linear quark in what we believe to be impossible... to see the future before it happens.

If we address the common symptom of the experience, Deja Vu, (already seen) we quickly see how the mainstream tries to push and cover up the phenomena with temporal lobe epilepsy, and for the most part... the mundane skeptics quickly adhere to this model with out further progression.

However the French were kind to also have Deja Reve, which means already dreamed. And I argue that a lot of Deja Vu is really Deja Reve implicating that it's a dream that is the source of the memory, and not some TLE none-sense that the mainstream might want you to believe.

Certainly months before the dream comes true, you are not having some TLE, and when it does come true, TLE is also not a factor.

Why this is possible has two possible theories, one can tie in well with Quantum Physics and the fact that our brain uses Quantum states and there are observed quantum dipoles in the microtubules of the synapses.

If our brain functions at a quantum level, then it is subject to the quirks of photons at quantum levels, as it has been observed that the microtubules use photons as part of the information exchanges.

This leads to quantum bi-location, quantum leaps, quantum entanglement and like any quantum state, we can have the waveform of consciousness collapse and expand.

That said, a quantum leap or quantum bi-location could be the explanation that our consciousness has shifted in frequency at some quantum level to allow it to transcend the space-time continuum and observe a future event as a part of quantum quirkiness.

A good theory, I think it merits some valid thought.

However, the other theory is a bit more accurate and not explained by Quantum theory, and that is quite simply the precognitive dream is exactly as it is... a dream. And we are doing what we always do when we dream, we dream the dream.

Making the precognitive dream, a created expression of our consciousness. And if that creative expression comes true, becomes this reality... then this reality by association, is also a dream.

It's a dream within a dream.

That is how I observe it. Given that I have also changed precognitive dreams and observed the changes occuring here. I am more then satisfied with the second theory as the accurate fact.

posted on Apr, 16 2009 @ 03:19 AM
Stars and flags to both of you. Fantastic thread, and right down my line of perception.

As far as 'dreams' that see the future mentioned above. I had a dream when I was 15 about a cricket match. In my dream I was in the crowd and witnessed England bowled out for 77 against Australia.

The following day, this took place.

posted on Apr, 16 2009 @ 03:51 AM

Originally posted by Kruel
Thanks tgidkp... I didn't realize one of my images was missing.

This is much like the illustration i use when i look at time.

But there is something missing. To be able to tell time or understand changes in matter and energy you have to also bring in the fine tuned gravity field that keeps everything in place.

Only dark matter, light and radio frequency is able to leave earths gravity field.

So everything is sort of locked in and down here on earth.

There is as far as i know two other factor that play a major role in time and changes, and that is the Sun and the heat produced by earth.

All this has to do with how we see time and changes.

Time is: Changes in energy in matter = energy leaving other energies to become something else = matter loosing pressure giving of energy.

Matter is: Energy pressurised together with other energy into matter of different types.

The matter that has the highest pressure that we know of on earth is Earth (dirt and rocks)

Since this Earth is most solid it has a longer changing cycle then whats on top of it.

Earth cycle of changes becomes one Time. But to the things on top of it (humans) there will be two impressions of time. Past and present time.

Everything on top becomes a different time of cycles. Because it changes faster then earth does.

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

posted on Apr, 16 2009 @ 05:30 AM
reply to post by Kruel

TIME = Travel In Measurable Existence. Without space and matter, time is non-existent. Past and future interact in the present.

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