I want socialism.

Maybe America needs a monarcy aswell.....

I know it's a bit old fashion but think about it.....he/she wouldn't have to participate in rulling the country but just be their to function as a general conscience.....
I know in our country our royal family has no function what so ever and they made a cool billion euros just by doing nothing (our tax money!!!) (yes that reads 1 BILLION).......
But if anything our queen will sure as h**l intervene with anything that see things goes against our country's values and norms. When she says something the people listen.....sorta like a mother...



Just making suggestions here....you got a better idea???

King of America.......

(that's gotta do good for your ego when you can put that on your businesscard)

Who do think is best at serving as the conscience of America???

My vote would have gone to George Carlin....but that's a little to late (rip)

Where did everyone get this idea about healthcare and housing being a right? You realise that someone has to build the house for you, and provide the healthcare. So your 'right' involves the slavery of someone else to provide for you. For nothing of course, because a right need not be paid for. It's a right, see?

As for 'you'd have people staving on the streets!!'. Humans can assist each other of their own free will you know? Just don't support putting a gun to their heads to help people who will not help themselves. And that is the important point. Some people will not help themselves because they are lazy or idiotic. If they were an animal they would starve to death, but you want me to force me to help them?

All this emphasis on left-right and socialist-capitalist ideologies obscures the issue. Which is Individualism vs Collectivism.

And whoever mentioned the UK as being brilliant is full of #. Firstly, the tax as % of GNP is not 33, it's about 48. We pay about $7 a gallon of petrol because the governement thinks they can spend it's citizens money better than the citizens can.

Collectivism and all it's spawn are born of injustice.

Hi everyone, I've been reading this post with interest. Hoping to learn a bit if I'm honest. Anyway I noticed a few of you mentioned how well socialism works in places like Norway etc.
I thought Norway was Anarchist.

www.anarchy.no...

Scary word isn't it. Look it up. If you think it involves skinheads running riot you will be in for a surprise.

And before anyone asks. No I am not an anarchist. Or anything some to think of it.

reply to post by Mahatma87


People like you used to tell us that we didn't deserve many rights - like freedom of religion, speech, and other inalienable rights. If you want to say that health care is not a right, and that all people don't deserve the same chance at life, that's fine; however, don't tell me I'm wrong because I believe we all deserve that right.

[edit on 24-11-2008 by Irish M1ck]

Originally posted by Mahatma87
Where did everyone get this idea about healthcare and housing being a right? You realise that someone has to build the house for you, and provide the healthcare. So your 'right' involves the slavery of someone else to provide for you. For nothing of course, because a right need not be paid for. It's a right, see?

The idea of people having a right to basic needs (food,housing and clothing) are set by us as human beings and we believe no man should go without. If you life in a country were they have a social structure the goverment will provide (through taxen on its inhabitants) these first three basic needs to anybody who doesn't have these. Which means the people building these houses are paid for by the goverment...

As for 'you'd have people staving on the streets!!'. Humans can assist each other of their own free will you know? Just don't support putting a gun to their heads to help people who will not help themselves.

Exactly, that's called sociale thinking ,to help your fellow man!!
And as the most people within a social structure would agree to help anybody who needs it ,there will always be people who seem to think they are not responsible for others. In order to keep it fair everybody has to pay taxes in order to divide the burdon equally.

And that is the important point. Some people will not help themselves because they are lazy or idiotic. If they were an animal they would starve to death, but you want me to force me to help them?

Every men is free to do as he pleasis (even die of hunger) but you have to realise some people have come to a point in live, were it would seem everthing is against them, were they don't see a way out and plunge in to a depression or whatever. (are many reason i could think of)
Does it mean you just leave these people to their fate?? or are you ,as a society responsible for trying to help these people??

All this emphasis on left-right and socialist-capitalist ideologies obscures the issue. Which is Individualism vs Collectivism.

Do you belong to a society???
Collectivism is a term used to describe any moral, political, or social outlook, that stresses human interdependence and the importance of a collective, rather than the importance of separate individuals.

Or are you alone on this planet???
Individualism is the moral stance, political philosophy, or social outlook that stresses independence and self-reliance.

Collectivism and all it's spawn are born of injustice.

If so ,then stop using the facilities provided by that same society...think about the implications.....

I'm not saying socialism is a good think but being with +6billion people on this planet being an individual is not really an option wouldn't you agree...

Well who doesn't want socialism? I would absolutely love to have socialism. However, with that said, I will completely reject socialism until the second coming of Jesus Christ. Until then, Socialism cannot work the way it is supposed to. As long as people have the ability to think for themselves and believe whatever they want, true socialism will fail. Until we are all united under a single cause or goal in every manner possible there will still be violence, failure, greed, racism, etc. My belief is that man is imperfect, therefore, how can we maintain something dependent on perfection?

Very well said and may i add that i know most people think this way. It's just that the word "socialism" has such a heavy load...people tend to associate it with communism or dictatorship.
Which isn't hard to understand given the fact of it's numerous attempts by different goverments and failing.

The whole idea is that it is not "laid" upon the people but it has to come from within the people themselfs.

As for the coming of the second Jesus Christ...That just depends on what you belief (you're rulling out a whole bunch of people here (buddist, muslims,hindoes etc) and that is not really social) he has already come and he is within every man, woman and child. Don't go lookin for "him" out there, he ain't there and he won't come.

It's up to us now.....

Originally posted by Dienekes
Until we are all united under a single cause or goal in every manner possible there will still be violence, failure, greed, racism, etc.

All i can say is.....fear

fear leads to anger. anger leads to hate. hate leads to suffering. "yoda"

..lead to violence...leads to failure...leads to greed...leads to rasicm...leads to etc......

It's not perfection you should look for but balance.......

Originally posted by Mahatma87
Collectivism and all it's spawn are born of injustice.

I agree wholeheartedly.

The 'most perfect union' between the individual; and the entity of government is that which is Described in the U.S, Constitution, Bill of Right and Declaration of Independence.

If Governments would follow and adhere to these 'Living Documents' there would not exist the conditions under which a debate such as this would arise and be so fostered.

Most people who espouse Socialism have never read the Constitution, Bill of Right of Declaration of Independence - yet they disparage them nonetheless; as if Freedom were a Bad thing.

Socialism already exists in the USA, but only for the very rich. For the middle classes and the poor, it is hard capitalism.

Why not alter the political system to allow new parties to emerge to actually create real change (i.e. Proportional representation--and don't spin that line about weak govt. It's not true). Why not? Because the two-party first-past the poll system is easy to control.

Why not have a National Health Care system? Because the rich are making a lot of money out of it.

Why not nationalize/regulate the energy industries? See above.

Why not introduce a clean, cheap system of communal transportation? See above.

Why not let people have more time off? Guess what.

The average income has gone down. Both parents must work so our children are growing up without moral values. The planet is being polluted, the country is bankrupt.

And yet, still no change.

In addition, the education system brain-washes people so that many of the very people who are suffering or will suffer because of this situation will vilify me. What can you do? The rich have got the rest of us by the short and curlies.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by Mahatma87

 

People like you used to tell us that we didn't deserve many rights - like freedom of religion, speech, and other inalienable rights. If you want to say that health care is not a right, and that all people don't deserve the same chance at life, that's fine; however, don't tell me I'm wrong because I believe we all deserve that right.

[edit on 24-11-2008 by Irish M1ck]

Your right to religion, free speach, liberty, life and property doesn't cost me a thing.

Your right to a house forces me to build you a house. For nothing of course. How is that fair?

Put 5 people on an island. 4 people get busy and fish,cook, build houses. The 5th person can't be bothered, but demands that the other 4 build him a house so he can sleep without getting wet. Why should those 4 people build him a house when he offers them nothing in return.

Person A: Yo! I'm hungry and cold. Give me food and a house!

Person B: What do I get for this?

Person A: Nothing! Respect my rights and get building and fishing. Hahaha I can do # all and let you do all the work.

Person B: I'm gonna kill you.

Originally posted by Mahatma87
Your right to religion, free speach, liberty, life and property doesn't cost me a thing.

Your right to a house forces me to build you a house. For nothing of course. How is that fair?

Put 5 people on an island. 4 people get busy and fish,cook, build houses. The 5th person can't be bothered, but demands that the other 4 build him a house so he can sleep without getting wet. Why should those 4 people build him a house when he offers them nothing in return.

Person A: Yo! I'm hungry and cold. Give me food and a house!

Person B: What do I get for this?

Person A: Nothing! Respect my rights and get building and fishing. Hahaha I can do # all and let you do all the work.

Person B: I'm gonna kill you.

Do you realise that it is because of this "why should i do anything if he is not going to do anything" attitude every system you think up is doomed to fail.

Were did it happen that people overlooked the part of responsibility!!!!

If you are in a society (in your example, a five man society) and four man are working for each other why why why....would the fifth man say...f**k it i'm not gonna do anything. You really don't think that the effort of the group would be an inspiration or motivation for the fifth man to do anything?

I'm sure it is ignorance and fear that people think people will react in this way.

What is the fifth man broke his back and couldn't move should the four other man still not help him out???....now you see....that is a society!!

I need to point out that I don't think I have all the answers, and I'm trying to figure out which is the best form of governement. But I am nearly sure that forcing me to pay taxes to support the lazy and stupid is not right. It does the lazy and stupid no favours either as it takes away much of their incentive to improve.

Do you enjoy paying for a #ty education system when you don't have kids? How about paying the wages of beauracrats who are employed to arrange all this? And damn do they get paid well. Nearly everything the gov touches turns to # and you want them to organise your life? Before long they'll be telling you what to eat, drink, do, think for 'the greater good'. Greater good my ass. Who gets do decide what the greater good is and why do I have to go along with it?

Take a look at the Borg for your socialist society. Looks like fun does it not?

Originally posted by Mahatma87

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by Mahatma87

 

People like you used to tell us that we didn't deserve many rights - like freedom of religion, speech, and other inalienable rights. If you want to say that health care is not a right, and that all people don't deserve the same chance at life, that's fine; however, don't tell me I'm wrong because I believe we all deserve that right.

[edit on 24-11-2008 by Irish M1ck]

Your right to religion, free speach, liberty, life and property doesn't cost me a thing.

Your right to a house forces me to build you a house. For nothing of course. How is that fair?

Put 5 people on an island. 4 people get busy and fish,cook, build houses. The 5th person can't be bothered, but demands that the other 4 build him a house so he can sleep without getting wet. Why should those 4 people build him a house when he offers them nothing in return.

Person A: Yo! I'm hungry and cold. Give me food and a house!

Person B: What do I get for this?

Person A: Nothing! Respect my rights and get building and fishing. Hahaha I can do # all and let you do all the work.

Person B: I'm gonna kill you.

If you built a house for someone you'd still get paid for it. Doy. The government would just pay you for the hours you worked.

Maybe because some people have a heart? They would care? Do you have children? If not do you want children if you're at the age to where you can still? Are you going to have your child (or children) do chores in return for food, shelter etc? You're a part of a community. People take care of each other. Why do we have homeless shelters and places for battered women to go to? I feel sorry for you I really do. Oh and how can you say life doesn't cost you anything? You have to have things like food, clothes etc. to live.

[edit on 25-11-2008 by LittlePinky82]

If you built a house for someone you'd still get paid for it. Doy. The government would just pay you for the hours you worked.

Maybe because some people have a heart? They would care? Do you have children? If not do you want children if you're at the age to where you can still? Are you going to have your child (or children) do chores in return for food, shelter etc? You're a part of a community. People take care of each other. Why do we have homeless shelters and places for battered women to go to? I feel sorry for you I really do. Oh and how can you say life doesn't cost you anything? You have to have things like food, clothes etc. to live.

And where does the government get the money? In England, if you want a house, the solution is simple. Make sure you're a girl, get pregnant and the gov will come to the rescue. I wonder why there are so many teen mothers?

Regarding the next point, that is my choice to help people if I want and if I do not want to, I do not.

Do you have a spare room in your house? If so, why are you not housing the homeless? I suggest the gov come round your house and tell you to house a homeless person for no cost. If you disagree, you can go to jail. How is that for you? And don't worry about it, the homeless person has a right to housing, so although you'll go broke looking after them, rest assured that you're doing the right thing in sacrificing yourself for someone else who doesn't give a damn about you.

Originally posted by Mahatma87
I need to point out that I don't think I have all the answers, and I'm trying to figure out which is the best form of governement. But I am nearly sure that forcing me to pay taxes to support the lazy and stupid is not right. It does the lazy and stupid no favours either as it takes away much of their incentive to improve.

I couldn't tell you that either....democracy is not even a pefect sollution but is the best for the mean while....
Why is it that you (as most people) are only concerned with the deadbeat and lazy people of our society. How about the homeless, single mothers with minimum income etc...
You really don't feel you have a social obligation to help the unfortunate?

Do you enjoy paying for a #ty education system when you don't have kids? How about paying the wages of beauracrats who are employed to arrange all this? And damn do they get paid well. Nearly everything the gov touches turns to # and you want them to organise your life? Before long they'll be telling you what to eat, drink, do, think for 'the greater good'. Greater good my ass. Who gets do decide what the greater good is and why do I have to go along with it?

I really don't care for money in the first place. It's a game most people are a little to eager to play. I really feel i have more in my life to be happy about than what my paycheck tells me. Take what you need....don't get me wrong, i'm not naive. I would like to pay my bills and my morgage but value of money is highly overappriciated.
Mankind is in a fase of growing up and right now we are like children on a playground. Everybody's got marbels to play with and the game is to get as much as you can. There will come a day when we chuck this antique system overboard and enter the fase of adulthood.
Were the question is not wether you feel like it or not but you do because you know that is has to be done. And so will the lazy people......

It's just a matter of mankind growing up and realising they aren't obligated to so or else....but more the the realisation that they have a reponsibility and will do so because it has to be done....nobody is telling them....

whoooo...that's stretch ,even for me.....

Originally posted by Mahatma87
Take a look at the Borg for your socialist society. Looks like fun does it not?

I have no idea what you just said but i'm sure it has to do with...FEAR!!

Let it go....

Democracy is not the best solution. It is mobrule. Demo = mob or something like that. 51% enslaving the rest if they want, think the American south elslaving blacks.

Constitutional Republic where unalienable rights are upheld above all else is the answer imo.

Stupid media propagating the fallacy that democracy is heaven on earth does not help. Stupid is not the word, deviant would be better.