Free will, morality, and "mistakes", page 2

Pages: << 1 2 >>
ATS Members have flagged this thread 4 times

reply posted on 7-11-2008 @ 10:31 PM by YourForever

reply to post by CavemanDD

Interesting thread.

I loved your first post. Very well thought out and considered.

Other parts, I'm not so sure about. I felt your point could of been articulated a little better. I would also suggest to think about concepts from multiple angles, rather than following a singular train of thought.

reply posted on 11-11-2008 @ 10:09 AM by Anonymous ATS

reply to post by CavemanDD

Just wanting to point out, when you talk of criminals and that they should be educated instead of punished. In you post you mention free will. Ive come to the conclusion that most people do not understand these words. We label people as criminals beacause they have broken laws set by man to tell man what he can or cannot do. Free will huh. Untill we judge ourselves and only ourselves, the only free will we have is to take our own physical life.

reply posted on 1-2-2009 @ 12:26 AM by mmariebored

Originally posted by CavemanDD
If I were to kill a criminal, that is my decision.. I might later decide it could have been handled differently, but I can't change the past. I acted the best I knew how. I don't see how this would really go against love either? I'm not talking about making this person suffer, just removing them. If I were to firmly believe re-incarnation, then my decision to "remove" this person would be just to relocate them... And hey, their consciousness would learn from that experience, and so would mine. I'm not approving of going on a killing spree to solve the world's problems, i'm just giving an example of a situation from a spiritual approach. Not to be compared to war. War is nothing but suffering. This is more the idea of capital punishment. I'm just talking about "relocating" someone as a means to solve an issue.

It makes sense that we're here to learn, experience and to fix issues we may have had trouble with in the past.
Maybe someone had control issues, and this is a deep rooted issue for many, and they came back to resolve this issue. If a person kills them mid lesson, they will only need to resurface to begin the lesson all over again. This solved nothing -and- the one doing the killing clearly needs this lesson as well. The 'right thing' is always to teach, not to kill.
Nobody 'comes here to die', that kind of mentality will only ever lead to a self-destructing world, not a peaceful one.

reply posted on 1-2-2009 @ 03:26 AM by Astyanax

reply to post by juveous

Naturalists don't believe in free will though. I'm a naturalist.

By the way, the Tibetan Book of the Dead - if you believe all that stuff - says most people don't make a willed choice of incarnation. You have to be pretty advanced along the karmic journey before you can do that.

reply posted on 1-2-2009 @ 02:19 PM by mmariebored

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by juveous

Naturalists don't believe in free will though. I'm a naturalist.

By the way, the Tibetan Book of the Dead - if you believe all that stuff - says most people don't make a willed choice of incarnation. You have to be pretty advanced along the karmic journey before you can do that.

That's what I was trying to say(sorry for butting in), because this whole theory is based primarily on reincarnation theories. No one truly has any proof of any of this in the first place, so to say, "they came here to die" or "killing them is teaching them the karmic lesson they must have needed" is nothing more than justifying being a murderer and robbing someone else of their life here on earth.

reply posted on 1-2-2009 @ 02:36 PM by MischeviousElf

Food for thought

"In the Highest Interest & Good"

If I see a crazed man about to throw a baby in-front of an ongoing train, as he is deranged, and can hear voices in his head telling him it is the Anti Christ.

My moral compass would make me want to stop him, I would even feel justified if I was that way trained and armed to shoot him dead to stop him.

Its my free will or choice.

So I do that I kill him.

Who is right? or more importantly innocent in God's or The Highest good eyes or Karma?

As my motivation was one to save an innocent from evil and confusion am I more justified than him in committing the act of murder?

Will I be punished in Hell or by Karma more than he, or vice versa?

He could not help his mental health hallucinations, he truly believed he was doing a higher service to all.

I know being sane I committing murder as I pull the trigger.

Who is right morally or the more innocent, who has as your friend put it

"The best intent or Right Intent"

Is my subconscious motivation really because I don't want to labelled as a coward, and feel anger at him?

Whilst his is to save humanity......

Which is the correct stance really?

He dies.

I get awards, become a hero for saving an innocent's life.

promotion as a policeman.

Praise, love and adoration.

No one goes to his funeral, he is buried in a paupa's coffin.

40 years later I am an old man and the Russians are coming, they shoot me after I have killed many a young man in defence and doing the right thing to protect my country.

As I die I see God about to judge me....How do you think he will judge me?

First think on this........

Didn't I mention I shot that "madman" in 1895, the Baby grew up to be Hitler.

Elf.

reply posted on 1-2-2009 @ 02:57 PM by CavemanDD

reply to post by MischeviousElf

, see this is what I meant when I started this thread months ago. I think people think I honestly hold these beliefs and that I'm a cold hearted person, not true!. I'm simply stating I am UNSURE of the "right" course of action and such situations.

The idea of this thread actually started from me reading about alien races, these so called light beings who still had capitol punishment, they dissolved criminals into light and there is no pain, they just simply "remove" the person. They feel they are of that position to make that decision. I just found it curious and I started pondering such ideas.

The idea of "well if I killed him, it was his decision anyway"... stems from me reading about past life recalls and they talked about how horrible things were like murder but its all planned bla bla bla.. pre-planned exit strategy, and they learn, and bring the knowledge back etc etck.. I just found it all really curious..

I started thinking about how every action puts us on a new timeline in a sense that there are infinite posibilities and the mere the fact that you are here, doing what you do.. it kind of means it was supposed to happen, at least on your current timeline, because it DID happen.. perhaps by you killing, or being killed, it put you on another timeline and in the OTHER timeline it wasn't supposed to happen.

I'm just saying I find it all really curious, looking from a hypothetical stand point, picking apart spiritual philosophies and channelled information.. all I'm saying here is... if they're telling me this.. then it seems to imply this, as wacky as it sounds etc.

It's a really strange thing.. I was watching a movie the other day and I couldnt' help but think... wow.. consciousness is crazy... thinking..on the surface these are all people..and they're all making each other suffer...but inside could lurk this inspiring quality, you know.. I found it interesting.. like looking at it like one big computer program... on the surface we look similar but there could be this gem of a soul.. a program hidden inside.

And you just think.. there's some sort of sentience out there watching it all, taking notes, thinking, this is fascinating, what a wonderful expression of beauty.. and I find it kind of a funny thought.

If people want to know how "I" personally, really truly feel, I will tell them, but the point of this thread, was discussion of the flexibility of sense of morality, and picking apart spiritual concepts, trying to get to the root of what they're implying, while holding our biases back.

You know what I mean? What would this omnipotent..omnipresent BEING do..what would it think is the course of action, would we agree? would we even understand? how complex does it go?

Or is it one of these things that will remain inconsistent?

I imagine if some sort of being had no emotions.. they would just follow through with whats important to some damn predetermined agenda they seem to know about.. but again with the idea of infinite posibilties.. what different does it make? If there are infinite possibilities, just do what feels right, and it will end up being the right decision, theoretically, for that particular timeline! Mind boggling concepts.

I don't know if I would kill but I would deffinately do what it takes to stop someone from harming an "innocent".

I was also thinking of the old movie "Time Machine".. where in the future everyone is dumbed down and bred to be food, and see no point in taking care of each other etc.. This one girl was drowning, and the time traveller was angry.. he said "why didn't anyone try and save her?".. and they all kind of looked at him with a blank face.

Perhaps morality can be conditioned in our out of to such extremes..

anyways... interesting that this thread popped up again.

reply posted on 1-2-2009 @ 06:38 PM by mmariebored

reply to post by CavemanDD

I watched this documentary featuring people in prison talking about the crimes they committed and what they were thinking at the time they committed the crimes. All of the murderers interviewed either felt they were doing the 'right thing' when they killed -or- they felt the person they killed was less than human and unimportant.

I never said you were promoting these distorted views or believed them yourself, only that some of the views lead down the paths that the killer's minds had ended up.

We all like to philosophize and try out different paths, many times hopping off of one we see is 'wrong', it's how we learn. All of life is like this. When someone stops learning, it isn't because they know everything they need to know about everything, it's because their 'update manager' is broken. Maybe their 'karmic lesson' in this body is completed, or maybe their mind is trapped in a 'distortion'.

Just the fact that you're here, on an intelligent discussion board sharing and learning raises the odds that you'll make less 'mistakes' in your life.
The more we learn and discuss, the less 'distortion' we have in our minds.
This is another reason I believe the best way to get as much learning in as possible is to have a long and healthy life. Many lessons can be learned in a lifetime, but a life cut short has barely learned to get past self-service, if even, and will have to take that course all over again the next time around. No one is allowed to be born 'fully aware'.

Also, as far as believing all of those 'channelings' and other such info, I like to keep an open mind to all possibilities, not completely shutting anything out and not believing everything either.

reply posted on 1-2-2009 @ 07:20 PM by mystiq

Very interesting thread. And I completely agree with all of your points. To me it isn't about punishment either, and I would not have any system of punishment at all if true healing and counselling and a bracelet and house arrest for a short time would turn the person around. To me the only point of an institution is to protect society from a psychopath, so most people in jail don't need to be there.

The karmic part is tied in with free will, and I don't really believe we have a lot of free will. There are many born who don't even get the chance to excercise a choice, and a choice excercised that is in an extreme impoverished condition or by a traumatized or mentally disturbed person (and most abused children qualify) isn't free will at all. Forgiveness tops karma. Thats the highest order virtue. And attempting to walk in another's shoes.

I believe in evolution of the soul, and life lessons that instruct both individually and the whole. Both "good guy" and "bad guy" roles inform equally.

But the greater ones abilities, and mental stability, the more is expected from them, and obviously their lessons are best learnt by making positive choices.

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 02:28 PM by IAmD1

I didn't read through all the posts so appologies if someone already said this. I was just pondering duality and the balance of things in relation to good/bad.

If it is true that a possitive generates and equal amount of negative then the opposite must also be true. And if reincarnation and free will is a fact of our reality then isn't it so that the worse a life you reincarnate into the more good you do unto the world. My logic being that the more bad you experience or generate the more good is left over or generated for the rest of the world to have.

Then the people who are generating the most good in this world are infact the once creating/living and being the most evil.

I don't belive this to be true so I am therefor not sure I belive in the balance of things. I actually belive there is space for good without evil if you like.

What are your takes on this then in relation to morality, free will and making misstakes.?

Just a thought that occured to me just now