Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

Just a heads up, this might seem cold hearted! Then again, the point of this post is varied interpretation.


PART 1.
I find there doesn't seem to be a straight answer for what is considered right or wrong. People have different interpretations, and it seems to me that this also one way our legal system seems so flawed. To me, the way to get rid of problems is education, not punishment. The idea of jail is to temporarily remove a problematic person, and to also instill this fear of punishment. Any real change of their behaviour I believe would be due to their own contemplation.

So I say this, "criminals", or those who make "mistakes".. or cause chaos, upset the balance, or go against our morality, should be educated, not punished. I think to see the value in this however, we need to as a society feel the need for evolution, and to accept an idea such as re-incarnation.

So we need to help share the wisdom so such mistakes could be avoided, mistakes we deem as criminal activities. But what constitutes a mistake?

I look at it this way... everything we do, is a mistake, and everything we do also isn't a mistake. What I mean is it's actually kind of irrelevant. We can only do what we are able to do at the time. We act on the best of our knowledge, experience, and state of mind. It directly reflects our effects on the world around us.

For instance... Something I may have done 5 years ago, I probably thought I handled pretty well, but since then I have changed as a person. I have become wiser and now have a different perspective on life. I can basically look to every action of the past as a mistake, because now I would do it differently.

The point is, this seems to be the very description of the time reality. That is, while living in the moment, everything in the past seems irrelevant in the sense that we dissassociate with it more and more as we learn. Why cling to the past when we know we wouldn't do the same now? It serves as a reminder, as an affirmation of our progression.

I think we have to handle each others "mistakes", with patience, understanding and ecuation, and humility. Some people don't learn as fast. Some people we think just can't be fixed. Learning is a process, it doesn't happen instantly. Again, this to me is the time reality...If we were to chart our life as a frequency...and if we were to be free of time, learning would come instantly, but it would still have a progression. There is still the movement of the energy, the patterns from point A to B.

We will learn, but while we experience time, it can seem hopeless.

(I'm going to continue this as 2 parts)..

*CONTINUED FROM ABOVE

PART 2.

So what constitutes right or wrong? What is morality if we can only expect to act on the best of our ability at the time. Who is more right or wrong?

We all have different ways we'd like to live. Some people live for chaos, while our society is structured around order. We all have different desires and to decide what's "best" seems to be... logically and emotionally based.

If people desire to be happy.. and productive, then order is the route. To live by "good". Its the sense of happyness, love and productivity that seems to be linked to the concept of "good".

What we have in the world seems to be a balance between what we percieve as good and evil... for we live in a structured society, yet its filled with chaos and corruption.

The "good" people want good, and the "bad" people want bad.

If I wanted to take the law into my own hands, I would do so because I desire order, and I desire to help (helping being "good"). I would see problems and I would try and remove them to keep the order, keep the productivity going and the positive emotions.

I would do this out of love, which I can understand as being a truth, which is why it drives us and why we evolve. We become "good-ER" . I just see that everything is linked. That to me is undeniable, the unity, and from this sense comes like an instinctual desire to go with the flow, and ride that wave of unity, for in it I feel the deepest sense of meaning.

Ok but now what about free will? I will discuss that in the 3rd part.

PART 3.

Free Will and Justice.

In a karmic sense, people have different desires, and you could try and label them as good or bad, but either way it's something they incarnate to experience. They want to learn from it. Maybe the learning process would be just to rid themselves of this desire because of its "negative" or dissorderly reprocussions, which one feels inhibits theirl search for inner-truth.

Either way, in the karmic sense, they incarnate to experience it, so who's to say it's right or wrong?

What I'm trying to say is to try and centralize on the hidden theme here, which is personal truth. We can hold ourselves back, or we can dig for the truth and evolve. Doing good things, and bad things, both serve as learning processes. To me, truth is when you just cease from all action and just observe. Its the realisation of your being. When you just close your eyes, and feel that sense of being. The fact that you are aware that you exist, and argueably, that is all that matters to you.

I think people look at the whole spiritual love approach as letting things fall apart, to not deal with our "problems". I have 2 oppinions on this. I will always try and fix problems, to keep the order. I do it out of this love-unity because I feel it has truth to my existence. I don't mean getting soft on criminals. If they can't be educated, then going back to the idea of "mistakes", we can only expect to act on the best of our ability.

If I were to kill a criminal, that is my decision.. I might later decide it could have been handled differently, but I can't change the past. I acted the best I knew how. I don't see how this would really go against love either? I'm not talking about making this person suffer, just removing them. If I were to firmly believe re-incarnation, then my decision to "remove" this person would be just to relocate them... And hey, their consciousness would learn from that experience, and so would mine. I'm not approving of going on a killing spree to solve the world's problems, i'm just giving an example of a situation from a spiritual approach. Not to be compared to war. War is nothing but suffering. This is more the idea of capital punishment. I'm just talking about "relocating" someone as a means to solve an issue.

It's kind of like how in comic books how some see a super hero as a menace because maybe they might kill criminals and cause massive destruction to fix a "problem", while others see it as heroic. Or its also like how some people see soldiers as heroes..whereas others see them as murderers. I might not agree with their methods, but I know the people in the military that I know, are acting to the best of their ability, and feel it is right. People have different perspectives, it is part of what makes us unique. We have something to learn from everyone, even if it's just a different perspective. Spiritually, this is how I view consciousness. We represent different perspectives of our being.

Ok lets get to the point I'm trying to make. "things" happen... it can be considered right or wrong, we can only act the best to our ability, and it all reflects our sense of personal truth. But where does free will tie into?

That will be the next part, I might have said it would be this part but I kind of went off there.

PART 4.

FREE WILL.

If you look at the idea of karma, re-incarnation, evolving consciousness, and even astrology, it would all seem to indicate free will. I feel that many things we experience in life have been pre-planned on our part, so from this perspective, the free will is and always has been mine.

For instance... the topic of slavery... which seems to be getting increasingly popular in this day in age!

If we create our reality, and incarnate with specific things to experience, then even if we were say, a slave... we still had the free will to make that decision. Only in this case... it's a bit different. We have free will, yet by entering into a life of slavery (willingly).. we experience what it's like to be stripped of our free will, (to some degree). If we create our own reality as it is believed, then if slavery were to really, genuinely conflict with our spiritual goals,... then our reality would change to get ourselves out of it. Because "I" truly do feel our thoughts reflect our reality,.. it is a truth to me that even if I were to become a slave, it is by my will. Perhaps my subconscious knows best. Perhaps it is my goal to experience slavery for a multitude of reasons. Perhaps I became a slave because I'm the guy that inspired people and gave them the will to live? Perhaps it is my goal to bring brotherhood, unity and endurance to my fellow enslaved? Just giving an example.

The idea that we incarnate to experience specific things, and that we do it willingly, gives me yet another perspective on this idea of "mistakes"...or the idea of good and evil, right or wrong..

So... basically.. this is where I sum it up:

If some person was doing something and my actions resulted in his/her death or pain, whether it was accidental or intentional.. it must still be their will.

Its like these things I read about, the karmic bond between killer and victim. One might kill another and the next life feel they need to take care of them as a parent or nurse.

And another thing... if I was a soldier, or a vigilante out for justice and I was acting to the best of my ability, and say I killed someone, which I may later consider to be a "mistake"... it seems to me... it's still what they wanted..its STILL what the soul wanted. They had to experience that from you, and you wanted to experience that from them. We'll always look back and think we could have done better but in this perspective, everything that happens is as it should be....It just happens... The energy flows in a pattern...It's life, it's consciousness. Its full of a range of emotions and perspectives.

I think that sums up what I was trying to say.

Some of you must think I'm a monster but I'll tell you this, the truth of my being.. is that I like being a "nice" guy. . I value truth. I try to let my actions reflect it. I can live with my "mistakes".

On that note have a great day!

I also wanted to mention a comment someone else gave me to this point of view.

Shellie "It's the intention that matters".


Exactly my thought... things may not always go perfectly but its all about the intention.

If dealing with a criminal:
If your intention was love based, then maybe you'd try and educate them, and help them.

If your intention was to make them suffer, then you punish them.

Another person might view something like locking someone up in a box is to force them learn on their own. It just seems like an easy solution to a problem to some, I don't necessarily agree or disagree, but is there the intention of love and evolution?


We each have funny ways of looking at things, but I think what truly matters is the intention, because that comes from ones inner sense of truth.

[edit on 5-11-2008 by CavemanDD]

When you do indeed change your concepts of reality it is as though you where born again. This is the nature of forgiveness and repentance. There are plenty of poeple out their dispensing wisdom to help you avoid pain. Are you humble enough to seek others knowledge to avoid killing that person? That is the true question.

interesting, didn't get to read it all. hopefully karma is real and we're all just, like you say, on some kind of learning curve.

if, however, we're stuck in a situation like stephen king's tommyknockers then we're just cashed out. ever seen that? wicked.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
When you do indeed change your concepts of reality it is as though you where born again. This is the nature of forgiveness and repentance. There are plenty of poeple out their dispensing wisdom to help you avoid pain. Are you humble enough to seek others knowledge to avoid killing that person? That is the true question.

Yes I believe what you saying is the question one's own ego plays a part.

Are we limited to our own perspective or can we listen to others?

I was going to touch on that but I felt it was getting too far off topic. I split this post into 4 segments because I have a lot to say and I think when people see big posts they are less likely to read them. Ha.

I was going to talk about something a freind and I were discussing..about someone he knew who he just couldn't get her to hear out his oppinion. We were saying how you could talk to her about someone else you might know of which you have a similar oppinion and thus taking the target off them. You're still kind of trying to express your oppinion buy trying to bypass their ego by making another target, ha.. The person doesn't even have to be real.


All oppinions should be valued, but are we able to listen?

By the way, i'm not a killer, nor do I look to it as a very good solution. I'm the kind of guy that when I play video games, I try and spare all the bad guys and talk to them.

I also look at like... if I had a choice to kill someone or not to, and I chose not to.. then it must not have been their free will if I chose not to, and so something else must be done. Perhaps all they need is to be heard out as you were saying.

These various thoughts cross my mind. When making decisions, I often find it difficult. It could be as simple as... should I post this thought on ATS or not? Most usually, I do not.

reply to post by Mozzy


nah haven't seen it,

Any good?

You can try to help people and that is all. Even greater is for you to live by example. That his actions whould profess the importance of his opinion. Seek this while you can. Soon there will be a massive source of controlled information and all of this true freedom of information will be transformed into an illusion. "There will come a time when you shall knock and the door will not be opened unto you" "i do not know you"

yeah it's good, but don't want to derail your thread. i was just saying that if karma isn't real then anything goes i guess.

I think we've talked about this off of ATS Caveman but I'd like to repost my thoughts here.

As history and even current events show is, it's probably less than 1% of humanity that can understand life as a learning experience, and put that into practice.

The rest go on and lie, steal, cheat, and murder. They can't put that into a context of a learning experience so it's hard to "rehabilitate" them.

More importantly, the people who suffer as a result of that action call for retribution, because they can't learn.

So with that taken itno account, I can see how governments and other authorities try very hard to define right and wrong... there would be chaos without it. Hoever you look at it, humanity gravitates towards rules.

I don't think that it's so much the definition of right and wrong that matters, but the problems that arise when two definitions clash. Just look at the current Prop 8 threads to see what I mean.

It's usually not when someoen does something wrong, but when people start to fight about the nuances of right or wrong. To use homosexuality as an example. Our culture tends to think of it as "wrong" or "Abberant," but outside of western civilizations, there have been many cultures that have different views of sexuality where homosexuality is not wrong.




All that being said I've known some people who have tried to use "Free Will" and "Reality is an Illusion" type of stuff to justify putting their own whims at the utmost of i mportance. That irks me. They are pretending to grow, in order to avoid grown pains.

Thaks for commenting. I'm talking about this elswhere too and someone mentioned a good point, to which I tried to explain the headache that is trying to anaylze anything really.

One could try and justify their actions this way to shield them from guilt.. but the fact that emotions are part of our reality says to me that they are equally important while guiding our actions. If not important, then they do at least effect our choices.

I know what your saying, we'll all have different oppinions, but we should try and be patient, to keep the peace. We get so carried away with a certain view point that we actually.. we see that thought in action, as it results in conflicts. I guess its showing how thought turns into action.

That moment when we take responsibility is where we change and grow. Or.. enlightenment comparatively.

I think without a sense of responsibility, we wouldn't be trying so hard as a society for the optimal solution.

It's not wonder everything is such a mess, as you said.

I know what your saying, we'll all have different oppinions, but we should try and be patient, to keep the peace. We get so carried away with a certain view point that we actually.. we see that thought in action, as it results in conflicts. I guess its showing how thought turns into action.

That's what makes this whole thing very, very difficult though.

For every person dedicating himself to spiritual progression there are thousands more who don't give a flip, some of which might be dangerous to other people.

I've been reading about Native American history lately and I think this paralells. Some of the Natives wanted to extend indefinite patience toward the White men, because that was in line with their more spiritual beleifs, but that was in its own way harmful.

Or perhaps another example is somethng like the Manson murders, or an abortion clinic bomber, who thinks that their version of right is so important that it justifies unprovoked murder, and something like that comes up to vilify an entire group of people trying to spiritually advance.

I suppose, maybe, that's just karma in its own way... the more a group of people dedicate themselves to spirituality, the more the "material" forces take up arms against them.

Originally posted by asmeone2

I know what your saying, we'll all have different oppinions, but we should try and be patient, to keep the peace. We get so carried away with a certain view point that we actually.. we see that thought in action, as it results in conflicts. I guess its showing how thought turns into action.

That's what makes this whole thing very, very difficult though.

For every person dedicating himself to spiritual progression there are thousands more who don't give a flip, some of which might be dangerous to other people.

I've been reading about Native American history lately and I think this paralells. Some of the Natives wanted to extend indefinite patience toward the White men, because that was in line with their more spiritual beleifs, but that was in its own way harmful.

Or perhaps another example is somethng like the Manson murders, or an abortion clinic bomber, who thinks that their version of right is so important that it justifies unprovoked murder, and something like that comes up to vilify an entire group of people trying to spiritually advance.

I suppose, maybe, that's just karma in its own way... the more a group of people dedicate themselves to spirituality, the more the "material" forces take up arms against them.

Must be duality.

A balance of some sort comes through in every action it seems. Can't have an imbalanced eternity it seems. !

I value your oppinions very much, you are great to discuss these things with. Off topic, I know this is why your book will be great

Thanks Caveman.

I'm not bashing you at all. I do actually agree with you for the most part.

I just think there's danger when people carry the ideas to extremes. But that's inherant in anything.

Personally I beleive it is impossible for us to ever reach perfection, individually or as a society... and on the flip side, to have a truly "Evil" culture like many religious folks are afraid of.

I beleive "good" and "evil" are essential to the perpetuation of the universe.

Without those two extrememes there would be no reason for us to think, or even to exist at all.

If everyone reached the pinnical of spiritual perfection, there would be no purpose to anything. I think the world would simply stop if either ideal was ever reached.

Most religions through time have recognized this. It's really only the Judaic branches that insist on seeing everthing in absolutes. It has been a powerful abberation.

I hear what your saying and I always put it like this: How can you fully appreciate the value of yes without no"

For electrons there are protons, etc. There is a male factor and a female, yin and yang, and their co-existence seems to be one that tries to define itself by the other.

The reason I feel things are eternal and infinite, is for this reason. I'm not sure the "isness" or eternity needs to learn anything, it just does as a condition to its seemingly paradoxical existence.

Perhaps as we learn its like we're saying: "almost got it, almost there, I almost understand".

It seems to be an inward spiral that goes on and on.

I think it is like this.


The more you start to look at the small things... the more they resemble the big things.

What is an atom but a small universe?

Everything is nothing and all things at the same time.

There is a video on the tubes called "crossing the even horizon" with nassir harrim somthing like that. it is worth a watch. Im going to mark you all as friends

Your Idea of substituting some version of our punitive system for an educative system sounds like some views of some naturalists that I have read.

www.naturalism.org...

I'm not saying I agree with these people, but they have some well educated points and ideas.