The Enemy Within:US Female Soldiers Raped.

Originally posted by jakyll
The pressures of war cannot be used as an excuse by everybody.There are sadistic feckers already that way inclined,and it is usually they who influence the actions of those poor souls who are losing there their grip on reality or have lost it all together.

There is no defense of "pressure of war" in the military. WAR is the military's business but commanders usually understand the situation and they are the ones who know how to deal with cases like rape in the military and they do a very good job most of the time.

Rape in those cases are usually moments of indiscretion which would be inconceivable in the civilian world. These guys are usually fathers, brothers, husbands and no one would ever suspect them of committing these acts but given the pressures they are put under some of them loose control of their baser instincts. This happens in any prolonged deployment. That is why troop rotation is so important. Their behavior however cannot be classfied as the same as rapists in the civilian world.

Originally posted by Jenna

You just cant expect him to flip a switch in his brain on and off between killer and gentleman.

Yet millions of soldiers around the world do just that.They keep control in violent and insane situations.

Millions ?? Absolutely clueless arent you ? There arent Millions soldier deployed anywhere and no soldier can "walk off" the effects of war on them. People like you who have no clue and spew ignorant drivel about how soldiers should behave and what they should do are the ones that need to be locked up next to the rapists because they cant do half the job soldiers do without mouthing off.

Any prolonged deployment of soldiers leads to these 'aberrations' from military discipline. Those are the products of fatigue and stress of prolonged engagements.

Originally posted by IAF101
It is preaching when you dont know what the hell you are talking about and are merely regurgitating some PC feminist drivel.

I find that comment rather odd since I am far from being PC about anything, am not a feminist though I do agree with them on some things, and am not regurgitating anything.

Yes a "moments indiscretion" in a totally chaotic situation under extreme stress. Those "crazy sickos" are exactly what it takes to charge into a room where a bunch of insurgents are going to spray you with Ak's or blow your Humvee with IED's and do it all over again the next day. Day in and day out because that is your job. Your "normal" doesnt cut it.
Rape can occur in various situations in the military but generally it is during these high stress chaotic environments. One cant treat civilian rape situations on par with these rape situations. There are many factors that makes everyday stand up guys do very crazy things that they woundnt think of doing in the civilian world.

And yet hundreds of thousands of soldiers from around the world manage to do all of that without raping anyone. So no, being a rapist is not "what it takes" to do your job while in a war.

Kissing somebody ?

Typical clueless drivel!
Do you think the soldiers are in some downtown bar where after a few rounds of shots they have a few moments of indiscretion ??

In those kinds of high stress environments it is more prey and hunter mentality not your dinner parties.

Did I say they were in a downtown bar somewhere? I don't recall saying that. You, sir, seem to not understand the difference between a momentary indiscretion and rape. They are not one and the same. I agree it is a hunter mentality, but it is the same mentality you will find in any rapist not just those who happen to be in the military.

Again, these are moments of indiscretion. These kind of situations are the exception rather than the norm. Do you see all married men cheat ? Most soldiers keep their heads about them but there are a lot who cant handle the pressure constructively. It is the reality of prolonged conflict. It is human nature which your feminist rhetoric would like to generalize as a "crime".

Again, rape is not a momentary indiscretion. It is the act of forcing your will upon someone else, forcing sex on that person, all so the rapist can feel powerful. What is so difficult about understanding that rape is not a momentary indiscretion it is a CRIME. Shall I look up definitions for you? Or perhaps the UCMJ? Or perhaps the federal laws regarding rape? It is a crime no matter how you want to look at it. It is not feminist anything, it is a statement of fact. Rape = Crime

Take any prolonged deployment by any military force in the world and you will see these kind of "moments" be it Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan or any of the other conflict zones like Palestine, Kashmir, Africa, etc.

And that lessens the fact that rape is a crime how?

Again, you are just uttely clueless. This is not a rape in the civilian world, you cant treat them as such. Maybe if you actually served a tour or two and then talked you would understand how ludicrous your feminist drivel is . Rape in the military is a serious crime but it is taken in always taken in context. Commanders understand what their soldiers have gone through and punishments are meted out to fit the crime. They understand whst kind of soldiers their men are and what the circumstances are. not your clueless rhetoric would have the rest of us believe.

Except that rape is rape is rape is rape. It does not matter where it occurs. It does not matter who the perpetrator is. It does not matter what occupation the perpetrator has. Rape is still rape, and it is still a crime. Perhaps if you were ever raped you would understand that. It does not take a tour in a war zone to understand that rape is rape and is a crime no matter how you try to spin it.

Worse, you generalized a very unfortunate situation affecting some of the bravest men in our country to fit your clueless feminist rhetoric to use as some propaganda against the military.

Ummm...... What? Have you actually read any of my posts? Any of them? When have I ever used anything as propaganda against the military? If you look back through my posts in this thread alone let alone any other military related threads, which you obviously have not done, you would know that I posted a rather lengthy post complete with sources showing that the rate of rapes in the military is similar to that on college campuses in this thread. I have also been one of the few defending the military against those who would take this topic and run the military into the ground. Perhaps you should get a better idea of my stance on the military before you decide I am against it or that I use propaganda against it.

Men are behaving like human beings. THAT is what your dont seem to understand. I guess expecting anything more from someone who is so clueless about the realities of war and conflict is expecting too much. However let me say this, given the right set of circumstances, any man, ANY man can be made to do very bad things. It takes maturity and wisdom to see what the real problem is rather than blanket all these incidences as a vicious crime.

No rapists do not act like human beings, they act like animals. And you are still missing the fact that rape is a vicious crime. I agree that men can be made to do things they normally wouldn't if put under the right circumstances, but that in no way excuses the behavior of the few who choose to rape someone.

Originally posted by IAF101
Millions ?? Absolutely clueless arent you ? There arent Millions soldier deployed anywhere and no soldier can "walk off" the effects of war on them. People like you who have no clue and spew ignorant drivel about how soldiers should behave and what they should do are the ones that need to be locked up next to the rapists because they cant do half the job soldiers do without mouthing off.

Any prolonged deployment of soldiers leads to these 'aberrations' from military discipline. Those are the products of fatigue and stress of prolonged engagements.

So there haven't been millions of soldiers from around the world who have been deployed?

Active Duty Military Personnel Strengths
Total - Worldwide 1,385,122

I would say that after seven years of war it is a fair assumption to say that most of our own have been deployed. This is only a count of the active duty personnel from the U.S. so once you add in the soldiers from every other country who has been involved in Iraq or Afghanistan it is a fair statement to say that millions of soldiers do not rape anyone let alone another soldier.

But at least now I see why you so vehemently deny that rape is a crime. It is clear now from your statement that I should be locked up with the rapists and that I couldn't do the job soldiers do without "mouthing off", combined with your repetitive assertion that I am a feminist that this has all been about a woman opening her mouth. You have now lost all credibility and any respect I still had for you.

reply to post by Jenna


Yes! Rape is an unforgivable crime against humanity, whatever the circumstance. One can't hide behind any excuses such as long periods of deployment or being away from families for months etc.

I wonder what action has been taken on the 'rapists'? Have they been let off with a lame reprimand? Has there been any deterrent action taken against the culprits? I do not think so, otherwise they wouldn't be doing this dastardly act with gay abandon! Is there a lack of discipline in the US Army? If so what are the commanders at various levels doing about it?

For example, let's take the Indian Army, fighting an insurgency in Kashmir for the last two decades. The normal tour of duty ranges from 2 to 3 years at a stretch.

Having said that, in the last two years there has been only one reported case of rape in Kashmir where there are more troops deployed than the U.S have in Iraq! The person was court martialled, dismissed from service and given a 2 year sentence. There hasn't been a single case in the last one year.

The reason? DISCIPLINE! I think the higher direction needs to take a call on this issue and inculcate stricter discipline and a change in the policy of sending women to such areas without the necessary infrastructure to ensure personal privacy and security.



[edit on 10-11-2008 by mikesingh]

reply to post by mikesingh


From the UCMJ:

920. ART. 120. RAPE AND CARNAL KNOWLEDGE
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who commits an act of sexual intercourse with a female not his wife, by force and without consent, is guilty of rape and shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.
(b) Any person subject to this chapter who, under circumstances not amounting to rape, commits an act of sexual intercourse with a female not his wife who has not attained the age of sixteen years, is guilty of carnal knowledge and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
(c) Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete either of these offenses.

So basically the most punishment they can get is death, the least I'm not sure about since it doesn't explicitly say. I would imagine that there are some who get away with just a slap on the wrist but I don't know for certain. There may be statistics out there somewhere, but I'm not sure if they would detail what kind of crime received what kind of punishment. I'll do some digging and see if I can't find out.

There is discipline in the US military, but I don't think there have been any soldiers put to death over raping someone. If nothing else they need to come up with something to protect these women, and men for that matter, from those who would prey upon them. Even something as simple as requiring that no one go anywhere without another person of the same sex with them would go a long way in preventing some rapes, and some accusations of rape.

[edit on 10-11-2008 by Jenna]

Kiltedninja

I know, I'm not talking about normal men, I'm talking about the ones that are severely f--ked in the head. If you paid attention to the rest of what I was saying, the post says that these are the people who've been killing, and have faced the trauma that generally accompanies it, not just some random pissed off dude. There's no way a sane person can commit an act such as rape.

My bad.

And yes,killing does effect some soldiers.But that instability doesn't turn them into rapists,that comes from an outside influence.Such as a soldier already that way inclined urging them on or witnessing a fellow soldier being raped which effects their mentality even more.



IAF101

Take any prolonged deployment by any military force in the world and you will see these kind of "moments" be it Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan or any of the other conflict zones like Palestine, Kashmir, Africa, etc.

This is incorrect.There is no set rule.Plus the first reports of rape on female soldiers in Iraq were in January 2004.News of the torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib Prison also broke at the start of 2004.Iraqi Maj.Gen.Abed Hamed Mowhoush was tortured to death in 2003.Such incidents happened in a 9 month period;March 2003 to December 2003.Thats not a prolonged period of time,thats barely a tour of duty!

Millions ?? Absolutely clueless arent you ?

Not really,as i was talking about the soldiers in every military of every country,not just America.




[edit on 10-11-2008 by jakyll]

reply to post by jakyll


It would appear we ran everyone else off...

reply to post by Jenna




It looks that way.

I'll put it down to the power of our argument and logic.

reply to post by jakyll


I agree.

This is not a one-liner.

I'd have to say so.

The whole deal is sort of a sore topic, not something that someone wants to spend time on.

The latrine for female soldiers at Camp Victory wasn't located near their barracks, so they had to go outside if they needed to use the bathroom. "There were no lights near any of their facilities, so women were doubly easy targets in the dark of the night," Karpinski told retired U.S. Army Col. David Hackworth in a September 2004 interview.
From the OP

Isn't it both intriguing and surprising, with a budget of $10 billion a month for funding the war in Iraq, there are no toilets within the womens barracks?? Even a makeshift CGI sheet toilet attached to the barracks with WCs, basic plumbing and electricity would cost peanuts - approx $2000 for a six-seater toilet with partitions. So what's the problem here? Why are there no basic facilities provided and some priority given to efficient and effective administration to ensure the basic necessities at camps especially for women soldiers?

There are even reports that Humvees are 'off road' by the dozen as there are no spare parts, in particular tyres due to lack of funds and other 'logistic problems'!!

So where's all the tax payer's money going? $10 billion a month, and no toilets? No spares? No replacements for BER equipment? So what the heck's going on? Those responsible for this state of affairs should be taken to task, as it adversely affects the morale of soldiers. Without adequate and effective logistics back-up, a war is as good as lost.




[edit on 12-11-2008 by mikesingh]

Kiltedninja

The whole deal is sort of a sore topic, not something that someone wants to spend time on.

Very true.
But i also think its too disturbing for some people so they ignore it.These are some of the reasons such things get ignored and the perps are never brought to justice.



mikesingh

So where's all the tax payer's money going? $10 billion a month, and no toilets? No spares? No replacements for BER equipment? So what the heck's going on? Those responsible for this state of affairs should be taken to task, as it adversely affects the morale of soldiers. Without adequate and effective logistics back-up, a war is as good as lost.

I know.It boggles the mind.
Everyone likes to big up their state of the art equipment but they cannot even provide the simple,and in some cases,the essential things an army needs in the field.

Its the same with the British forces in Afghanistan.The guy in charge of the SAS out there quit the other week because of his disgust at the lack of equipment,lack of supplies,faulty equipment etc etc.Its led to the deaths of many a soldier.

I also remember not long after the invasion in Iraq soldiers were complaining that they were facing a people who have chemical weapons and they didn't even have gas masks!



[edit on 12-11-2008 by jakyll]

I do know that the rifles that are being used, the M16, M4, and recently the HK416 has become more and more popular all cost around $1200. But even then, the HK rifles aren't exactly being bought all at once, the Armalite and Springfield armory weapons have been around for a while. But even so, the small arms aren't replaced each month, I think it's all the aircraft and tanks, which are important, but very expensive.
I miss the good old days where soldiers used swords and spears.

reply to post by mikesingh


Do you have any links to the Indian army deployment in Kashmir to prove your claims. I did a little looking around and could find only very little infromation about rape rates in other armies. What percentage of the Inidan army do females make up? While you claim it is all about disipline, that might not be the reason at all.

According to this site, rape rates in India are basically the same as other countries.

www.indianchild.com...

As in other countries throughout the world, rape is common in India. Rape is a social disease. Hardly a day passes without a case of rape being reported in Indian newspapers and media. Women belonging to low castes, and tribal women are more at risk. What is sad about rape in India is the lack of seriousness with which the crime is often treated.Statistics from 2000 showed that on average a woman is raped every hour in India.

And according to this site, India's soldiers in Kashmir do rape women on at a very high rate.

hrkashmir.blogspot.com...

Since the Indian government crackdown against Kashmiris in the disputed territory of Kashmir began in earnest in January 1990, security forces and Indian army have used rape as a weapon: to punish, intimidate, coerce, humiliate and degrade.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by mikesingh

 

Do you have any links to the Indian army deployment in Kashmir to prove your claims.

Sorry. Deployments are classified info and cannot be divulged. You'll obviously not find them on the web! What I've mentioned in my earlier post stands.

While you claim it is all about disipline, that might not be the reason at all.

That IS the reason. Period!

According to this site, rape rates in India are basically the same as other countries.

I never spoke about rape cases in India. I was speaking about the Indian Army.

And according to this site, India's soldiers in Kashmir do rape women on at a very high rate.

Good God Almighty! Is that all you've got as an authoritative source? It's the crappiest blog I've seen. Absolute propaganda by militant organizations! And you've fallen hook line and sinker for this nonsense! It's what they want.

Since the Indian government crackdown against Kashmiris in the disputed territory of Kashmir began in earnest in January 1990, security forces and Indian army have used rape as a weapon: to punish, intimidate, coerce, humiliate and degrade.

What utter Nonsense! It's amazing why and how people fall for this complete and absolute rubbish!!

reply to post by mikesingh


Yes,its true that in the last few years the violence in Kashmir at the hands of the Indian Army has decreased dramatically.This is,as you said,down to discipline which in turn comes from the improving of relations between India and Pakistan.

is it rape or sex?

i mean, if a guy holds the girl down and goes in on her

she is punching him off, kicking him off, struggling

then that is simply unacceptable in 2008

if the girl wanted it, then wants attention and says it was rape, I mean that is another story.

its hard to draw a distinction when its he said she said

I would simply advise against sexual activities during deployment.

A policy which would punish those caught breaking severely.

Because there should never, not once, be a female soldier who gets raped by some drunk animal. Catch him once, cut his you know what off. Send a message.

reply to post by Kiltedninja


All the money spent on the armed forces and you'd think they'd get things to work properly.With all this faulty equipment it makes you wonder were all the money goes.


Related links.

Defence rejects claims of faulty equipment.
www.ssaa.org.au...

Soldier's death in Afghanistan blamed on helicopter fault.
www.guardian.co.uk...

MoD investigates 'faulty' forces rifle.
news.bbc.co.uk...

Judge rules faulty equipment may breach soldiers' human rights.
www.mirror.co.uk...

The faulty Army-issue machine gun that fires ten times a second without a finger on the trigger.
www.dailymail.co.uk...

Originally posted by ConservativeJack
I would simply advise against sexual activities during deployment.

Which is very good advice. And yes I'm sure there are quite a few cases of women claiming they have been sexually harassed/assaulted and/or raped when they weren't, but the majority of cases they have on record I would say are the result of actual rapes and attacks.

Reminds me of stories I've heard about there being something in the food at basic to minimize any sexual urges new soldiers might have while there. Maybe they should start putting it in the MRE's so that the few guys who think it's ok to rape someone won't physically be able to do anything.

reply to post by ConservativeJack

its hard to draw a distinction when its he said she said

It can be.

But when a woman is raped there is bruising and tearing in the vagina from the force needed to penetrate her.When a woman is aroused the vagina is 'open' so you don't find the same kind of damage.