Is the Rapture and Holy Trinity a hoax perpetuated by man?

So if there is no rapture ..why then were so many raised from the dead at his resurrection with him >? Also Christ said he was the FIRST of the FIRSTFRUITS ...there are THREE HARVESTS .....and there are more than one FIRSTFRUIT gatherings .........
In ancient Israel the primary harvest season extended from April to November. This harvest period might be subdivided into three seasons and three major crops: the spring grain harvest, the summer grape harvest and the autumn olive harvest. These harvests have a rough, rather than a precise, correspondence with the festivals. Some grain might be harvested after Pentecost, threshing and grape-picking might overlap, and the olive harvest came both before and after the Festival of Tabernacles.
READ LINK FOR MORE
www.wcg.org...

Ok Mull over this for a minute .
The rapture of the faithful in contrast to the Revelation of Jesus at His coming*

Christ comes for His own 1Th 4:13-18 ----Christ returns with His own Rev 19:14

Believers taken to Father's House Joh 14:3 ----Believers come with Jesus to Earth Mat 24:30

He is seen only by believers 1Co 15:52 ----Every eye will see Him Mat 24:30

Earth not judged -----------------------Earth judged Rev 20:4-5

A Mystery - 1 Co 15:51 ---------------Foretold in OT Zech 12:10

Christians taken first 1Th 4:13-18 3 Mat 13:28-30 ------Wicked are taken first Mat 25:1-13; Rev 3:8-10; Rev 4:1,

He comes to present the Church to Himself 2 Co 11:2 ---He comes with His Church for judgement and to set up his Kingdom Rev 19:6-9, Zec 14:3-4; Jud 1:14-15; Rev 19:11-21

Casts Satan out of heaven to earth Rev 12 -----Binds Satan for a thousand years Rev 20
Occurs in the twinkling of an eye 1Co 15:52-----Comes to earth to do battle at specific locations Isa 63:1-3, Rev 16:16, Zec 12:9-10

Jesus descends with a shout. 1Th 4:16 8 ----No shout mentioned Rev 19:11-21
Jesus comes as a thief in the night 1Th 24:43--------Jesus comes at the end of 7 years of tribulation Dan 9:24-27, 12:11-12; Rev 11:2, 12:6,14, 13:5

*much of the above info was obtained from:www.linkjesus.com...


Then of course we have Enoch and Elijah was translated ..They may be the two witnesses ,....because they are the only ones who never died in the flesh .....(they were CAUGHT UP just like some will be) >
Then we have the transfiguration ..notice only three of the apostles were taken with Christ to see it ...Peter James and John ..(Not sure why but I believe they may represent something ) .....otherwise why werent the other apostles invited with them by Jesus >? ........
www.blueletterbible.org...


To me there is so much evidence that I am convinced ..
It isnt out right plain to most ..but if people would look into themselves (all the above ..the harvests the wedding tradition and all those scriptures then you can get a better idea of why I believe there will be a rapture.....

Happy studying ...you do need to not believe ANYONE and dig into it yourself ..that is for sure ..

I just posted a really long response ..and it shows I just posted but nothing there ..
NEVER mind it just showed up lol ..

[edit on 2-11-2008 by Simplynoone]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Alienmojo

 

I read about what happened at the end of the first millennium and there was a big expectation of a rapture happening, then, so the basic concept is an old one.
The trinity is old, too and goes back to Jesus' commission to his Apostles. They were to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It pre-dates Nicea,

Jesus' commission however, is not stating that all three are equal. So I have to disagree with you there. Jesus nevers speaks of a Trinity. He never says he is equal to God, in fact he says he is not as good as God at one point.
Yes, the rapture concept is an old one, but not a bibical one. I guess that's my point on that. Thank you though for your answer it is appreciated.

reply to post by Simplynoone


I have no problem with Revelation and the Post-Tribulation rapture. I am speaking of a Pre-Trib rapture. Lots of great info there but nothing that really points, at least for me, to a pre-trib revelation. I think that what others had said about so many people expecting Christ to return in their life-times led to the rapture movement. However, I feel they are mistaken in their beliefs.

Again, I have no real problem with a pre-trib or post-trib rapture. It is all the same to me and really has no overall bearing on our religion. The end result is still the same, if you know what I mean.

I do agree with you about the two witnesses... I think we shall see them again very soon.

I think one other interesting thing is how people make America seem so big to bibical prophesy...it isn't. My guess is that most, if not all, of America will be destroyed before Christ returns. Israel is the only holy city of the Bible and the only seriously important one in my view.

Just something else to think about.

Originally posted by chimpy38
In john it says,
1

20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you.
21
Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."
22
Judas, not the Iscariot, 11 said to him, "Master, (then) what happened that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?"
23
Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.

Yes, this is one of the many "pro-trinity" quotes, even though it suffers a little. Notice Jesus' distinction of "WE", not 'I' in verse 23. Notice how Jesus says in verse 20, "On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you," does that mean we are also in the Trinity because Jesus says we are in him? You see, that rationale does not make sense any more than what he says makes sense for a trinity. Nice try though. Again, I point out that no where does it say Jesus is equal to God. Thanks for all that writing though, I appreciate the thought.

Originally posted by HypnoAsp
Of course it was. In my opinion you should be questioning something else as well, the big pink elephant. How can one evolve spiritually If someone else has already allegedly figured it out and is shoving the manual down your throat? A manual that has earned them enough revenue to become a huge worldly power??? You are on the right track..... I would love to write more to an obvious intelligent & objective soul like yourself.


~Hyp

Hey Hyp, thanks for the post. I have questioned that and have come to a logical conclusion, for me at least, that God exists. We know Jesus existed (even with what some people say on here) and I know that the apostles existed and died for him. Now these same apostles who ran and hid when Christ was arrested later spread the gospel and died for him. Something must have happened to change their minds (Just look at Paul, he never even met Jesus and died for him). So that is my proof that there really is a Christ and a God. Some will laugh, but what works for me is good enough... whatever gets you thru the night, right? I harbor no ill will against you for your belief... we are all entitled to our own beliefs.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Alienmojo

 

You're in error on both points:

1. The Christians at Antioch compiled the first Bible in 120 A.D.

(Nowhere in the minutes of the Nicea Council does it even say they "made" the Bible, that's a popular myth.)

2. The pre-trib rapture dates to Paul, and it was most certainly taught looooooong before 1830, that is also a myth:

I don't know about error, but I'm not sure what you are talking about. What does your first point have to do with what I am asking. You kinda lost me there. You will have to show me where Paul speaks of a Pre-trib rapture. If you are referring to 1Th 4:17 you are referring to only one small obscure verse that the followers of the pre-trib rapture use as a fact. However, one verse is not proof enough. Sorry.

reply to post by drevill


I have to totally agree with you here Dr. I also feel there is no 'get out of tribulation' card either. Its just a thing to believe so you aren't so scared of what is to come. Personally I don't really care if there is a rapture or not. If there is... great! If there isn't.... great! I just would love to be able to survive it long enough to see Christ returning...now that would be something! I'm going to heaven either way, so I don't really care. I'm ready.

Originally posted by adrenochrome
reply to post by Alienmojo

 

\

Many writings rejected by the church councils found their way into a book known as the “Apocrypha” (“hidden writings”). The Apocrypha consists of writings which were adjudged to be of dubious origin or quality by the church.

Some of the material was rightfully rejected. Other Apocryphal works, however, were omitted simply because they contradicted the official church version of Jesus’s life on several crucial details. These are details which, if carefully researched, would offer a somewhat different outlook on the life of Jesus from the one presented in the authorized Bible.

I would have to say no to reading something like this. I have read bits of the Apocryhal books and saw no redeeming value in them...hence why the church got rid of them. Stories of Jesus killing his best childhood friend and resurrecting him, breathing life into doves made of mud, etc... sorry..it isn't in the bible because it is obvious that it is something Jesus never did. He also never spoke of reincarnation because it WASN'T important to these Jewish people. They followed the Old Testament. Where in the OT does it speak of believing in reincarnation. I'm sorry, but that was the stupidest thing I ever heard of. I don't know where this guy is getting his information, but I would suspect it is closer to a firery place than heavenly place.

Originally posted by chimpy38
In john it says,
1
1 2 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me.
........
6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
8
Philip said to him, "Master, show us the Father, 7 and that will be enough for us."

notice that philip at this point didnt think jesus was saying him and the father are the same.

10
....... The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.
....
12
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.
13
And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
......
16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,
17
the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.

note in verse 17 jesus says he will be in his followers. if being in someone means they are the same person, then why would he say this to his followers? are they now to be part of this trinity?

20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you.

again, a reference to unity.

"
23
Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.

again, unity

24
Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.
....
26
The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.
27
13 You heard me tell you, 'I am going away and I will come back to you.' If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

if jesus and the father are the same person, then how did he mean when he said the father is greater than i?

31
but the world must know that I love the Father and that I do just as the Father has commanded me. Get up, let us go.

if jesus and the father are one, then why would he need to command himself?

so right there it tells you that god and jesus are one

lol, nowhere in this passage does it say they are one. it still refers to 2 separate people. in fact, if you actually read the passage, you would realize its the most damning to the trinity

the expressions "the father is in me" and "know me, then you will also know my Father." denote UNITY in action and thought.

jesus was an IMAGE of his father, an example. how you get that they are the same person from that passage is incredible.

*note - i quoted the parts of the passage itself that shows they are 2 but united

Originally posted by Alienmojo

...
I would have to say no to reading something like this. I have read bits of the Apocryhal books and saw no redeeming value in them...hence why the church got rid of them. Stories of Jesus killing his best childhood friend and resurrecting him, breathing life into doves made of mud, etc... sorry..it isn't in the bible because it is obvious that it is something Jesus never did. He also never spoke of reincarnation because it WASN'T important to these Jewish people. They followed the Old Testament. Where in the OT does it speak of believing in reincarnation. I'm sorry, but that was the stupidest thing I ever heard of. I don't know where this guy is getting his information, but I would suspect it is closer to a firery place than heavenly place.

well first of all, the church got rid of them because they held some truth to them that they wanted to suppress... did you even read that chapter i linked to?? Bramley says that not all Apocryphal works are accurate, and that only a handful have remotely any truth to them. ...and obviously it never spoke of reincarnation in the bible, because that idea conflicted with the "official" church version's depiction of Jesus... and the guy is getting his information from official biblical documents - again, READ THE CHAPTER!! it's got more than enough sources to satisfy any truth-seeker!!

if you were to hear about the real "lost" years of Jesus, then you'd realize that his true teachings were not very close to what King James thought they should be... remember, King James didn't even like his "authorized" version - he read the Geneva Bible!

if you have any more questions, then READ THE CHAPTER!!! you'd realize that the author is not the demon that you're making him out to be... on the contrary, he's trying to help everyone by letting them in on some very important pieces of the puzzle that is our true history.

if anything, just read the chapter for some food-for-thought! but please, do let me know what you think of the rest of it!

peace!

[edit on 3-11-2008 by adrenochrome]

reply to post by miriam0566


Hi Miriam, I couldn't agree with you more on your point. That is how I read it as well. It is just that as an ex-catholic, now born again, I was raised on the Trinity and it is so hard to think of anything else... however, I feel very strongly against it at this point and wish to honor, praise, and glorify my Father in a way befitting him. The question is... are we praising him by lifting up Jesus to an equal status? I think there is a reason Jesus sits at his Father's right hand and not in the same seat. I am not belittling Christ here in any way, but if I am right than we hurt the Father unintentionally everytime we say Christ is equal to him. '...the Father is greater than I...' pretty much sums it up. I equate it to Star Trek Next Generation... if God is Picard than Jesus is his Number One... do we look at Number One (from a subordinate point of view) any less differently than we look at Picard? Not really, just a hair maybe.
My point is that if we praise Christ as equal to God we do him an inservice. Sorta like praying to Moses and saying he's as great as God. This is so hard a subject, not to mention touchy, that I have no wish to offend anyone... especially God. I merely wish to praise and honor him in a manner befitting him. I hope that makes sense.

Originally posted by adrenochrome


...and obviously it never spoke of reincarnation in the bible, because that idea conflicted with the "official" church version's depiction of Jesus...
[edit on 3-11-2008 by adrenochrome]

I have to disagree on your point here. Before the Bible was THE BIBLE, there was the Pentatuch and Torah, or basically the Old Testament. No where in there does it mention anything about reincarnation. Jews don't believe in it as far as I know. How could the 'offical' view of the church disagree with something that didn't exist in the first place.

If he is so entirely wrong on that big point I see no reason in reading the rest of his book. To me it would be like reading the National Enquirer and someone telling me to believe it. It isn't going to happen. Sorry brother.

If I'm wrong about Jews believing in reincarnation please let me know and where to read on it... other than his book. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know everything. I'm just going on what I know and personal experience.

[edit on 3-11-2008 by Alienmojo]

[edit on 3-11-2008 by Alienmojo]

reply to post by Alienmojo


[First, the Rapture. I grew up believing in this whole hearted and even read the Left Behind books. Great books by the way, rapture or not. However, after doing some studying I have found out that, at least to me, it seems that the rapture is a man-made thing and isn't going to happen.]

I showed you scripture pointing to proof that there will indeed be a rapture .
If you didnt care then why did you include the question above in your post ?

Did you even look over the scriptures ?

The Rapture has been debunked here dozens of times.

Look at BTS to find all the information and all the possible discussions.

The Rapture is NOT biblical.

It's 'soul candy' invented by failed anglican priest Nelson Darby in the mid 1800s. It's a cult based on skewed scripture teachings and the wish for escapism. It's perpetuated by those who wish to make millions of $$$ of those poor souls who can't deal with the realities of life.

It is my understanding the God is from everlasting to everlasting without beginning or end. Christ is the first born from God, the one true God. And therefore not the same. God cannot be added to or taken away from. .

Jesus was a man and was christed. in other words the christ fully manifested through the man Jesus. "I travail in birth pains till christ be formed in you." "You shall do greater things than I".

In God we live move and have our being. The father/mother and the son, the trinity, come after God and are not God.

Jesus speaks of being in God, and God being in him and us being in him. He also says when you do it to one such as these you do it to me. I believe he is showing us that we are all of one spirit and harming another is really harming a part of ourselves.

The rapture i don't have much to say about as I believe that revelation is a story about the anoiting of John or christ being formed in him and the process that takes place. To him that overcomes even as I over came is repeated 6 times I believe in revelation.

A translation of the bible you might be interested in is The restored New testatment by James morgan Price. It was origianlly two voumes but has now been published as three. Two deal with the first four new testament and the third with revelation. S&S

reply to post by Alienmojo


Regarding the rapture: This is actually something I used to consider. After all, what better way is there to keep people in line with the faith than to tell them if they are good little Christians, they'll be sucked up off the planet and avoid the worst period in human history. But after doing more research, I abandoned that thought and now believe in the rapture. It looks like others already pointed out the earlier references that precede 1830 by centuries.

Regarding the trinity: No, it was in the writings of the first century church fathers a couple of centuries before the Nicaean council.

reply to post by Alienmojo


As far as the trinity goes, I'm convinced that it's a human concept mixed into the theology. Christianity (in a broader sense- Catholics incl.) has a history of adopting bits and pieces of other cultures. Christmas, Easter and St Valentines Day all were originally pagan, and still are kinda pagan (Xmas trees, easter bunnies and S.V. cards are pagan). The trinity, IMHO, is adopted from the ancient Egyptian religion. The Egyptians had their own trinity. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are 'Amun-Ra, Horus and Osiris' respectively.

But the rapture I can only give uneducated speculation. I remember seeing a documentary about 'Revelation'. It explained that the interpolation of the rapture was based on a vision that a girl had whom Darby knew. I'm very fuzzy on the details.

reply to post by Alienmojo

Jesus' commission however, is not stating that all three are equal. So I have to disagree with you there. Jesus nevers speaks of a Trinity. He never says he is equal to God, in fact he says he is not as good as God at one point.
Yes, the rapture concept is an old one, but not a bibical one. I guess that's my point on that. Thank you though for your answer it is appreciated.

This may be to subtle, but I was using two forms of the word "trinity".(capitalized and not) There is a trinity if you consider it in the broader meaning of three things that belong in their own group, based on a certain similarity. The Trinity as in what is Incorporated into a creed that is forced on Christians as dogma is incorrect and was influenced by some very questionable assumptions that are not Biblical.
Whether there is a rapture or not people have believed in it since before the 1830's. It is not just a modern invention.

reply to post by Alienmojo


what i'm trying to say, is that the author can explain it a hundred times better than i could... how can you learn the truth if you keep a closed mind and refuse to hear all sides of the story?? how can one come to logical conclusions if they don't even know all of the possibilities??

please friend, read that short little chapter and let me know what you think?

didn't it ever occur to you that the bible is not only a place for stories, but also it's a compilation of many religious documents throughout history. why is it so hard to believe that the scribes (paid scriptwriters of the Bible) edited and omitted certain facts so the Church could have a better hand in controlling those that follow the scriptures?? is it so hard to believe that man is manipulative and controlling for the selfish purpose of obtaining power? what better way is there to control man, than to have a hand in the foundations of his belief system?...