Originally posted by Alienmojo
Mostly from John, but what did it for me was he showed me a bunch of stuff from people very early on talking about the trinity.... LONG before
Constantine. He told me that with all these learned people saying it was true there must then be some truth in it.
Some anti-religious people want to believe in nothing... but I choose to believe in hope... hope of something better... so I think I'm better off
believing in God and his son and trying to live a christ like life than I am not believing.
not believing in the trinity doesnt mean one is anti-religious. the nature of god is a very important aspect to worshipping him. if you get it wrong,
it can have dire consequences. the problem with the trinity is that people worship jesus as an EQUAL to god, AS god. a point that jesus himself
imagine for a moment that that the trinity is not true. how would jesus feel if worship and praise that belongs to his father, is being directed to
him? now imagine that jesus is set to judge the world. he sees people who despite clear evidence in the bible, continue to direct worship to him. do
you think that he would see them as acceptable?
rom 1: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
john is the book that has the MOST anti-trinity scriptures in the bible. im pretty sure he would have started with john 1:1 "the word was god", but
then what does 1:18 mean when it says: "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath
declared him." if jesus is god, then how has no man seen god?
i go over this and a ton of other points exhaustively in this thread here www.belowtopsecret.com...
you mentioned your friend said that early christians believed so there has to be some truth to it. the best way to see what early christians thought
on the subject is to read the letters to the early congregations
new stuff, i never posted before, but i should of.
the book of hebrews. a letter to a jewish congregation. there were problems where there was confusion as to the traditions of the isrealites system of
worship and how this new christian form of worship was to compare. paul said in the letter that they forgot the rudimentary things of their faith.
basic doctrines if you will. one interesting point is that he references jesus at several points and expounds on jesus' relationship to god.
heb 1: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
god used to use prophets to share his will with mankind, but now he sent his son. son here is not a title, as we see he is also heir of all things.
this would make no sense if god and jesus were one. how can jesus be heir to something that is already is his?
this is also a reference to jesus' pre-human existance. "by whom also he made the worlds", in other parts of the bible jesus is called the
firstborn of all creation (first thing created), god's masterworker, or foreman. it was by jesus, that god created the world.
but it is key to note that we are talking about 2 separate people here.
 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by
himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
"express image of his person", colossians 1:15 talks about jesus being "an image of the invisible god". in genesis, man is made in god's image.
this doesnt mean they are one, it means that the image is representative. thats why jesus could say that if you saw him, you have seen the father,
even though "no man has seen god."
 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
many people use this to prove the trinity. they say jesus is higher than the angels, and noone is higher than the angels except god. and they are
right, noone is higher except god, however notice that jesus is "made". he wasnt before. if him and god are the same person, then this is not
most of this part of hebrews is showing the elevation of jesus. jesus was a man, flesh and blood, in subjection to god. god elevated him to his right
hand (NOT to BE the right hand, TO the right hand). if you reference this with other mentions in the bible, you see the right hand is a position of
importantance. noone would be closer to god than jesus.
heb 2: And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
but the most important tidbit of information relevant to this is the fact that all this god GAVE him. not that he already had.
heb 3: Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
jesus was an apostle and a high priest. an apostle is a disciple of someone that is set aside for a specific purpose, a specific task. a high priest
was the one who offered sacrifices to god on behalf of the nation of isreal.
both these title place him below god.
 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
jesus was faithful to god. this doesnt work in a trinity because he would BE god.
 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
jesus was counted more worthy than moses, meaning jesus was judged. he had standards he had to live to. does anyone judge god? the next phrase is
interesting too, the builder of a house gets more honor than the house. the next verse says that all things were made by god. there is an obvious
separation of god and jesus here.
heb 4: Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet
 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
jesus is our high priest on behalf of us. a person cannot serve as an intermediary in a case where he is the plaintiff. god cannot serve as
intermediary between him and sinful mankind.
15 also mentions that jesus was tempted, how can god be tempted?
heb 5: And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
jesus didnt appoint himself, god called him. this is not possible in a trinity.
heb  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
why would god need to learn anything? who would god be obedient too.
the whole book is very clear. the first century christians understood that jesus was god's son, not god.