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Is the Rapture and Holy Trinity a hoax perpetuated by man?

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posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 11:14 AM
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reply to post by rken2
 


Jesus speaks of being in God, and God being in him and us being in him. He also says when you do it to one such as these you do it to me. I believe he is showing us that we are all of one spirit and harming another is really harming a part of ourselves.
I think the point of this in the Bible is that Jesus is safe and secure in his position with God in heaven and that we are safe by being included in and sharing with what Jesus has created. It is a goodness of character that puts him in good stead with a righteous God. He is established, on account of this and will not be moved. If we believe in him and grow in our own ability to do good, we are included in this assurance of our never being cast out from the Kingdom.




posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by adrenochrome
 


Ok, since you put it that way I will read it.
Thanks for being nice. How can I say no to you?



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by adrenochrome
reply to post by Alienmojo
 



go on and read the rest of the chapter!! it goes into much more detail!!


by the way, this book's cheap, so i recommend it to most people for that reason alone, especially for what it's worth with the volume of information that it covers!
...what a great history book!!


read on to see what it says about Jesus's "lost" years!!


peace!

[edit on 2-11-2008 by adrenochrome]


Ok, I read it...although it does nothing to help explain the rapture or trinity it is interesting to hear what Jesus might have done. At least it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. I don't know enough to know how possible it could be for Jesus to do all that so I don't really have a comment except at least it didn't talk about him killing his childhood friend or anything like that!

Thanks again brother!



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by Alienmojo
 


yeah you're right about it not going much into the Rapture or Trinity - i just wanted to share to everyone what it said about them not being concepts that Jesus created...

and as for being a little more confused about his "lost" years, well, welcome to the club! does anyone really think we'll ever get to know exactly what happened to Jesus during those times?? i mean, it's all hearsay and speculation when you think about it...

i can understand people not wanting to believe in chemtrail or 9/11 conspiracies, but when it comes down to the fact that man is manipulative, selfish, and greedy for power, then i don't comprehend why it's so hard for some to believe that one of the bloodiest books of all time was actually written to control and manipulate the masses, in order to benefit the Church, and the enlightening secrets it possesses...

is that theory that irrational? i would think that a man walking on water, that can also turn water into wine, would be the less believable theory here.......

all in all, the story that William Bramley presents just makes sense compared to all the other filler that the church tries to teach you. i'll tell anyone, that i'm NOT religious, but i am, however, very spiritual. it just saddens me to think that no one even wants to bother to learn anything new about Jesus, because they feel they already know it all, and have to be right. they don't want to feel that everything they've ever learned their entire life was a lie - "the greatest story ever told" was meant to hide the real truths about our spirituality, by throwing us off in the wrong direction. it may seem like the best path upon reading the Bible the first time, but believe it or not, there's a better, "truer" path to the eternal soul!

...just wait until you read the chapter in The Gods of Eden about Martin Luther!!!
(i can provide a link if you're interested - you won't regret it!!) but seriously, this book has opened my eyes to what should be basic, fundamental common knowledge - best history book i've ever read!!!



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 04:41 PM
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Hey Alienmojo

This is the insight I can give you into the Rapture and Trinity. Some will call me insane, some Heretical. Though I am not the only believer.

First off let it be known the all Christianity is ripped from older religions, this much is true. You mentioned in your initial question The Great Constantine (well not so great) He was the first to conceive the church, and was not even baptized Christian until he was on his deathbed.

Now that being said, the Rapture is not a true Prophecy nor is revelations. These two items were constructed and kept the way they are since Saint John wrote them for one reason.

FEAR! The Consty intentionally left that book in, If People fear God's Wrath they will stay christian.

Before I go into the Trinity, let first make this note- Jesus Christ Would never want a religion called Christianity. When he was on Earth he came down to get people to believe in GOD!!! therefore, The Rapture, The Bible, and The TRINITY are all man made.

Jesus said there is One God, One Father. and No were in the teachings of Christ is the Holy Spirit mentioned (I've read the bible cover to cover From In to Amen) Because Christ died and Became the "Holy Spirit".

Though there were several other Religions who had a "Multi-Cast" system with..... You Guessed it Three God Heads. Feeling that they were a threat to the Church, Like everything else, The Church Adapted them e.g. The Crone the Maiden and the Hag (Sumerian, Some Wicca) Was a Blasphemy so how about the The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

Like Everything else in the Christian Religions those to were made to keep the "Faithful" in line.

Recommended Reading
Just go to Google and punch in:
The Council of Nicea
The Council of Trent
Canon Law
and Run a Search on Good'ole Consty Boy

Read on and wrap your mind into the Truth,

In Peace, In Love, In Hair Grease

Blessed Be
Mobhit



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 04:57 PM
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If a person were to only have contact with the Scriptures, without any outside teachings or influences, it would be highly unlikely for them to develop a belief in a "Trinity" on their own. Too many texts reveal that Yahuah is one, not three. Exegesis (direct analysis or interpretation of Scripture) will often conflict with what a person has been taught or already believes as he brings them with him to the study -- prior beliefs must not be allowed to influence such analysis. When we approach Scripture with ideas we already believe and then hunt down the texts which support our belief, we find ourselves "proof-texting". In this case, if we read a text, the teaching we already believe is not directly being taught, but we can snatch or extract the necessary phrases in order to support our belief. This is not exegesis, but rather eisegesis. Eisegesis (analyzing from one's own ideas) is what we mostly see being done, where an explanation or analysis is based upon one's own ideas, which is often based on popular opinion.

The "Trinity" entered the belief through what is called The Apostles' Creed, formulated as an integral part of the rite of baptism. A clearly divided and separate confession of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, corresponding to the Divine Persons invoked in the formula of baptism was imposed by Catholicism, and this dogma has persisted strongly to the present. This Creed developed from a primitive teaching (c. 390), and is referred to in a letter addressed to Siricius by the Council of Milan (Migne, P.L., XVI, 1213), which supplies the earliest known instance of the combination Symbolum Apostolorum ("Creed of the Apostles"). Certainly any idea that it actually originated with the 12 Apostles is a myth. The actual inception of the doctrine of the Trinity seems to be best explained as coming from the Nicene Creed, formulated under the Emperor Constantine in 325 AD. All we need to do is find a text in the Scriptures which teaches anything about Yahuah being three distinct persons, and that belief in such a model is so paramount that our salvation hangs on it. He is neither trinity or "twin-ity", but if we would condemn one another over whether He is or isn't, we are operating outside the bounds of what Scripture teaches us -- especially about judging one another.
Constantine was marvelously talented at modifying and formulating things that appealed to what everyone already believed. He did not emphasize Scripture as our model and guide for doctrine.

[edit on 3-11-2008 by torahwarrior]



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 08:33 PM
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reply to post by torahwarrior
 

Constantine was marvelously talented at modifying and formulating things that appealed to what everyone already believed. He did not emphasize Scripture as our model and guide for doctrine.

The emphasis was on a central authority, just like he did not like a divided empire and fought to take over the other half. If there was no scripture to support the idea of a centrally ruled church, it did not matter, they would make it up.
The dogmatized Trinity doctrine was an attempt to formulate the nature of God, in a way that could be enforceable. It is nothing but the by-product of a huge power-grab.



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 01:04 AM
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Originally posted by mobhitmusic
The Great Constantine (well not so great) He was the first to conceive the church, and was not even baptized Christian until he was on his deathbed.


That is not true. The word translated as church (ekklesia) means, congregation, a called out assembly, those called by God. Christ spoke of the church in the book of Matthew, and we have manuscripts of that book dating at around 250 AD, which was before Constantine's day. The same goes with the Epistles of Paul, he talks of the church many times and there are manuscripts of these books dating even earlier.



Before I go into the Trinity, let first make this note- Jesus Christ Would never want a religion called Christianity. When he was on Earth he came down to get people to believe in GOD!!! therefore, The Rapture, The Bible, and The TRINITY are all man made.


I agree on some of those points. I have no doubt he is mortified though not surprised at what the world has done with his teachings (which he always gave credit to God for). There is no rapture, no trinity, but Christ did quote from scripture.



Jesus said there is One God, One Father. and No were in the teachings of Christ is the Holy Spirit mentioned (I've read the bible cover to cover From In to Amen) Because Christ died and Became the "Holy Spirit".


Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Christ did teach of the Holy spirit, but not as a personable entity separate from God. The Holy spirit is the spirit of God, His power.

Christ was not the Holy Spirit, He was the son of God, and Mary was impregnated with the Holy Spirit to give birth to Jesus (Matthew 1:18), which was before he died.



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 01:07 AM
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reply to post by Alienmojo
 


are you sure that religion is not just a man made system of control to set up a system of belief ruled from the top down by religious gurus who set themselves up as sources of your own spiritual enlightenment which does not require external intervention?



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by Alienmojo

Originally posted by HypnoAsp
Of course it was. In my opinion you should be questioning something else as well, the big pink elephant. How can one evolve spiritually If someone else has already allegedly figured it out and is shoving the manual down your throat? A manual that has earned them enough revenue to become a huge worldly power??? You are on the right track..... I would love to write more to an obvious intelligent & objective soul like yourself.


~Hyp


Hey Hyp, thanks for the post. I have questioned that and have come to a logical conclusion, for me at least, that God exists. We know Jesus existed (even with what some people say on here) and I know that the apostles existed and died for him. Now these same apostles who ran and hid when Christ was arrested later spread the gospel and died for him. Something must have happened to change their minds (Just look at Paul, he never even met Jesus and died for him). So that is my proof that there really is a Christ and a God. Some will laugh, but what works for me is good enough... whatever gets you thru the night, right?
I harbor no ill will against you for your belief... we are all entitled to our own beliefs.

I do believe in GOD and believe there is much truth in the Bible. However there is much missing and or deliberately misleading for the churches gain throughout the eons. Humans always misuse power and the Bible is no different. The truth in the Bible is not always what it seems. There is nothing wrong with GOD it is us my friend.

I am so pleased this thread has gone well and I hope it has helped you. I get so disappointed with ATS when fellow brothers cannot get along on of all things, a safe virtual environment......


~Hyp



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 02:33 AM
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Originally posted by Alienmojo
The question is... are we praising him by lifting up Jesus to an equal status? I think there is a reason Jesus sits at his Father's right hand and not in the same seat. I am not belittling Christ here in any way, but if I am right than we hurt the Father unintentionally everytime we say Christ is equal to him.


that is a good question. if jesus is not god, then what is his place in all things?

the role jesus has is as redeemer.

matt 26:28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

we have to remember that mankind has been in sinful state since adam. (rom 3:23) this has created a barrier of sorts when it comes to our closeness to god. after all god is holy right? (rev 4:8) what business does holiness have with sinners? (2 cor 6:14) adam and eve's expulsion from paradise was also a explusion from god's protection and provisions. now adam would have to work for his provisions with the "sweat of his brow" (gen 3:9)

in the tabernacle and later the temples, a cloth was used symbolizing this barrier with god.

exodus 26:33And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.

this veil or barrier was done away with when the ultimate sacrifice laid down his life.

matt 27:[50] Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

hence, it is through his blood that we have access to god.

rom 5:[1] Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
[2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

so where does this leave jesus? well jesus himself tells us to pray to god. "our father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name" (see also phil 4:6) however, we pary to god "through" jesus, petitioning god "in his [Jesus'] name". (Joh 14:6; 15:16; 16:23, 24; 1Co 1:2; Eph 2:18

much like a person uses a telephone. they dont talk to the telephone, they talk to the other person through it.

his role as king

daniel 13:13] I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
[14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

(see also rev 17:14) GOD willed that all things be brought under jesus. (john 3:35) to jesus every knee will bow (phil 2:10)

what will jesus do as king? well if we see what jesus said when his disciples were amazed at his miracles...

john 5:20] For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

so using his miracles on earth, we see a template for what his kingdom will do. it will cure disease, provide food, cure the cripple, control the weather, bring back the dead. no only that but we can expect spiritual blessings as well. we will also be brought back to god.

with all this, jesus is still very important. he deserves our respect and honor and a measure of glory. however, it is to GOD we owe our gratitude for giving us jesus...

john 3:[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

even being in a position that jesus is in, he still gives credit to the father. an example in humility for all of us.

john 6:[38] For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 10:03 AM
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The Trinity is false and although I could write book on it I will tell you only one reason.

Fundamental to the christian faith is the ransom sacrifice, that is Jesus Christ died for all the people that ever lived and are alive today.

Any person can make use of that provision by their life course.

For the ransom to actually work this is the point JESUS CHRIST HAD TO ACTUALLY DIE.

This mean he was a separate entity on earth when he died. Then the almighty God had to resurrect him only 3 days later. So for that period of time Jesus Christ very soul was dead. This means under no possible circumstances was he the Almighty God when he died.

And so if you believe that Almighty God and Jesus Christ are ONE divine being, you by extention deny the ransom sacrifice of his death because in your mind his soul never actually died, if only for a very short period of time.

Jesus Christ is godlike in this universe, but so is Satan if you read the bible.

One leads the forces of good the other leads the forces of evil.

Jesus Christ is almost an exact clone of Almighty God as far as qualities and personality, but he was created and he does have free choice to do what he wants to do.

Heavenly ranking of spirit creature's

1)Almighty God
2)Jesus Christ
3)Seraphs
4)Cherubs
5)Angelic Messengers



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 11:05 AM
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The Rapture will happen, I think the question should be when it will happen and how it will happen. There is no SECRET RAPTURE and the Bible is very clear about this. As for when, there are Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib and Post-Trib thoughts about it. In my opinion and from what I get when I read the Bible is that the Rapture is the LAST EVENT and happens at Christ's return, or the final Trump.

You have to understand that Satan has no original ideas and only has ever tried to copy GOD, in this way he can confuse people and make things appear one way when in fact it is the opposite. A simple reading and simple understanding of the books of Daniel and then Revelations clearly shows the order of the things to come and the way of things to come.

The problem in my opinion with the pre-Tribers is that these people will follow the first jesus they see, which of course is satan. It is through ignorance, mistranslation and mistransliteraton that causes so many problems with understanding the scriptures. If one truly wants to understand the Bible one needs to use the KJV and the Strong's Concordance to get the original intent and words. With these two tools one can easily make sense of the confusion hat runs rampant in the Rapture discussions.



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 01:47 PM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


interestly, your example also proves that "souls" are not immortal



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 06:51 AM
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Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
The Trinity is false and although I could write book on it I will tell you only one reason.

Fundamental to the christian faith is the ransom sacrifice, that is Jesus Christ died for all the people that ever lived and are alive today.

Any person can make use of that provision by their life course.

For the ransom to actually work this is the point JESUS CHRIST HAD TO ACTUALLY DIE.



An interesting point that is fundementally flawed I'm afraid. Mainly because Christ was made into a man, God's begotton, and then died. Remember that he went to hell to show that he conquered death and then ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father?

As God he of course can not die or cease to exist, but as God made into man he can still experience death. He chose to do this for us, to be our sacrificial lamb as it were.

In the end, with all the help of the people on here and my best friend who is a scholar, I have come to the belief that there is indeed a Trinity and that references to it existed far before Constantine ever decided to endorse it.

So I am going to continue to believe in it, even with the few doubts I still have of it. If I'm wrong I will apologize to God when I see him. I did the best I could with the information at hand. Being a loving and forgiving God I think he will forgive me if I am wrong.

Peace all and thanks again!



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 06:54 AM
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No its a hoax by Satan..............nut then again the antichrist was elected tuesday in america.........



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 07:01 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by rken2
 


Jesus speaks of being in God, and God being in him and us being in him. He also says when you do it to one such as these you do it to me. I believe he is showing us that we are all of one spirit and harming another is really harming a part of ourselves.
I think the point of this in the Bible is that Jesus is safe and secure in his position with God in heaven and that we are safe by being included in and sharing with what Jesus has created. It is a goodness of character that puts him in good stead with a righteous God. He is established, on account of this and will not be moved. If we believe in him and grow in our own ability to do good, we are included in this assurance of our never being cast out from the Kingdom.



Well then I guess we have nothing to worry about and when I see him I will have to thank him. I don't really care what the bible has to say, it is the living spirit that speaks to me that I am more concerned with not the dead letter of the bible that has been manipulated and misinterpreted by man. S&S



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 12:59 AM
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Originally posted by Alienmojo
An interesting point that is fundementally flawed I'm afraid. Mainly because Christ was made into a man, God's begotton, and then died. Remember that he went to hell to show that he conquered death and then ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father?

As God he of course can not die or cease to exist, but as God made into man he can still experience death. He chose to do this for us, to be our sacrificial lamb as it were.


Ask yourself a simple question: how can something that is eternal and immortal die? I t cannot, yet Christ most certainly died for our sins, and he was dead for three days and three nights. Christ was not God, he was Gods' son, born of flesh, and he was not eternal until after his resurrection. The plain simple fact of the matter is that Christ did not pre-exist, and he was not God. He came into being when he was born in the womb of Mary. Notice nobody called him God until after his resurrection...

JOHN 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Most don't know it but God is creating a family.....

1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 02:11 AM
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The rapture in the bible is based on the same ancient stories that are told all over the world. All of them start when the age of the water bearer begins. Many christians have been forced to remain ignorant of these ancient texts and have no ideal that the bible contains a zodiac calendar with the exact time of this.

Look for the story of the last supper, look to the ancient stone tablets in Iraq before they all get destroyed. This is where the evil god of the bible came from and these are the stories he stole and put into the bible. Do not listen to the brainwashed people. they will never look for themselves, they are to far gone.

[edit on 7-11-2008 by The Stand]



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 02:51 AM
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Originally posted by Alienmojo

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
The Trinity is false and although I could write book on it I will tell you only one reason.

Fundamental to the christian faith is the ransom sacrifice, that is Jesus Christ died for all the people that ever lived and are alive today.

Any person can make use of that provision by their life course.

For the ransom to actually work this is the point JESUS CHRIST HAD TO ACTUALLY DIE.



An interesting point that is fundementally flawed I'm afraid. Mainly because Christ was made into a man, God's begotton, and then died. Remember that he went to hell to show that he conquered death and then ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father?

As God he of course can not die or cease to exist, but as God made into man he can still experience death. He chose to do this for us, to be our sacrificial lamb as it were.

In the end, with all the help of the people on here and my best friend who is a scholar, I have come to the belief that there is indeed a Trinity and that references to it existed far before Constantine ever decided to endorse it.

So I am going to continue to believe in it, even with the few doubts I still have of it. If I'm wrong I will apologize to God when I see him. I did the best I could with the information at hand. Being a loving and forgiving God I think he will forgive me if I am wrong.

Peace all and thanks again!


Sorry but the "mystery" of the Trinity isn't a mystery at all, because it isn't real, that's a fact.

I am going to be blunt, if you die before the judgement hour, it won't matter, God will indeed forgive you regardless of your belief structure. However if you cling to a false beliefs on judgement hour, God will not forgive you, I am sorry to say.
That's the way it is. God has forgiven and will forgive billions humans that have lived and died. But once in a while even the ransom of Jesus can't cover it.

Examples
Adam & Eve
Cain
People who died in the flood
Sodom and Gammorah
Judas
Certain first century Jewish leaders.

And a really big one is coming up soon, the biggest in human history.
People get to decide within something called the "Great Tribulation", it's judgement is equal to the judgement at the flood, and it's final.



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