WARNING! Killing children may ruin your life.

A good friend of mine since childhood suddenly joined the military after my brother died a few years ago. He never told me anything about it until he was already being posted to another province for training.

He was the youngest person (according to him) to be invited to special forces training, he did not qualify but years of training had now gotten him into the killing mind set. He was now a trained killer and it was all he wanted to do.

He came home on leave about 6 months ago, he was pissed off cause they had kept telling him he was gonna be deployed to afghanistan then they would always cancel on him. I tried everything I could to make him quit the military, he arguement was "im dumb, and its the only thing im truly GOOD at, besides I need the money" I offered him a job, guaranteeing him he would make at very minimum, as much as he made in the military but most likely more. No budge. So hes on leave and the night before his birthday he gets a phone call, and the next day (his birthday) hes being deployed and his leave is being cut short by 3 weeks.

He goes on a 4 month tour of afghanistan and when he returns home I see him. He doesn't seem to be the same, rather quiet, getting upset about seemily pointless things. So I pull him aside one night and ask, hey man, whats the deal whats wrong with you these days?

Thats when he started to cry, and for the record I've known him for almost 20 years, I think 17 and never once have I seen this guy cry even when we found out my brother was dead he stood strong while I cried.

I asked, Ryan what is wrong??? He says that about a week after he got to afghanistan he was guarding some sort of check point and a guy in a car approached. They commanded the car to stop, and it did, but then without warning it started speeding up, as it got to a certain point the group of guys guarding the check point including my friend were ordered to open fire.

The car rolled to a stop, and when it did they approached to find that they had killed the gentleman who was driving, but also 3 kids in the back seat.

My friend isn't sure if it was even his bullet that took one of these kids lives but he was sitting there infront of me telling me the story in tears, saying he now has nightmares about it all the time, reliving the day over and over. Hes depressed, this military leave hes on now, hes been drinking (to points of blackout) at least 5 of 7 days of the week.

Again, I offer him a job tell him to leave the military, guarantee him a good life back in Canada where he can support his mom and find a girl to settle down with...

His response this time, "im dumb, and its the only thing im truly GOOD at, besides I need the money"..

Don't let anyone you care about join the military people, whatever it takes to make them stop and not join DO it. These people think they are doing the right thing, they think that war will be 'sweet' its not until they get there and realize that war is horrific that true reality sets in.

My father has never told me one story of his service in Korea. He hates firearms with a passion and only one picture of Korea is in the family album. It is a picture of hundreds of children with missing limbs. I will never know what he saw but he never joined society after that.

That's quite a powerful story - thank you for sharing...

There will always be casualties of war that scars both sides...I never saw a two way firing range while I served, but I do know that I wanted to be put in that situation to see my own true colors...

I was 22 then...now some 15 years later I am thankful I never got the chance...

And I commend you for trying to give him a way out - the only problem is, the person needs to be receptive to the opportunity...unfortunately he wasn't...

Once again...thanks for sharing and I hope this thread gets read by many...

Originally posted by chapter29
That's quite a powerful story - thank you for sharing...

There will always be casualties of war that scars both sides...I never saw a two way firing range while I served, but I do know that I wanted to be put in that situation to see my own true colors...

I was 22 then...now some 15 years later I am thankful I never got the chance...

And I commend you for trying to give him a way out - the only problem is, the person needs to be receptive to the opportunity...unfortunately he wasn't...

Once again...thanks for sharing and I hope this thread gets read by many...

I was surprised when I posted this thread and it got absolutely no response. This is one of my best friends, and I dont think he will ever truly recover from what hes been through in just one tour in Afghanistan.

Its also worth noting, that he was only there for a half tour, since he was sent there to replace another fallen soldier. He returns to afghanistan in the spring time, and I don't know which I fear for him worse; his not returning home, or him returning home so broken that the rest of his life is a waste.

I remember watching band of brothers when it first came out, and one thing I always thoroughly remembered in I believe (ep.5-7 or so) the new recruits start flooding the front lines, they had already missed the horrific invasion of Normandy and the many other battles that had killed many allied soldiers. And these new recruits wanted nothing more, than to see the crouts and fight them, they wanted to kill someone, to get some action. While the older men who had already survived so much were disgusted by them, and were pissed off by their attitude cause they just didn't (yet) know the horrors of war.

Then some years later, as I mention in the story when I heard of my friend joining the military I seen this exact same enthusiam from him. He wasn't worried about being deployed he wanted NOTHING MORE than to be deployed, he was dying for it. And the false starts that the military had given him, telling him he would be deployed, only to later cancel, angered my friend.

Then he finally gets the chance, and comes home broken after just 4 months. I just had to scratch my head and wonder why.

Well maybe you should advise your friend that it wasnt his fault or anyone else's. It was the man driving who is at fault. He should have stopped as requested.

If I were the JAG, I wouldnt even consider it a case or even worth considering it to be one. Its obvious who is at fault.



Cheers!!!!

Originally posted by RFBurns
Well maybe you should advise your friend that it wasnt his fault or anyone else's. It was the man driving who is at fault. He should have stopped as requested.

You are wasting your talents here, friend. You should be one of those counselors the VA uses for suicidal vets. You have the touch. You really do. Really.

Originally posted by starviego

Originally posted by RFBurns
Well maybe you should advise your friend that it wasnt his fault or anyone else's. It was the man driving who is at fault. He should have stopped as requested.

You are wasting your talents here, friend. You should be one of those counselors the VA uses for suicidal vets. You have the touch. You really do. Really.

Whats weird is that the forum was saying he was the last post, MY ATS was saying he was the last post, yet I cannot see his post in this thread. But now I can, thanks to your quote.

And yah, well I did try that. I even offered him a job and a place to stay, which would pay better than the military - he still refused. And since he joined the military, money has been his only cited concern, "well the moneys good, so ill stick with it".

He always runs on about how they get paid a lump sum for a tour, I think its around 60k for a 8 month tour. I could be wrong, maybe he said 40.

But regardless, what I keep trying to tell him, is that, even if they paid you a million dollars, a million dollars is useless when your dead.

[edit on 9-12-2008 by king9072]

Would it have sounded better if I had said something like "oh well war is hell"? Would that make the poor guy feel any better?

I dont know you tell me. Im just replying to the story and what I see as the source of the fault for those kids's deaths. I have not been put into such a situation as that soldier has, but I can see how it would affect him so much.






Cheers!!!!

[edit on 9-12-2008 by RFBurns]

reply to post by king9072


I feel your plight of seeing your friend so 'muted' after experiencing war first hand.

You are absolutely correct that every generation we have masses of young people (and many older ones) who have being brain washed by the 'war brings glory' propaganda. The truth can be further from it all. I just hope that the veterans communicate some of their wisdom to those who are eager to be part of an armed conflict.

I have had 3 friends of mine who were "Military Men" .. and I successfully helped "changed" their mind, .. they now live in Canada, haven't killed anyone, and themselves now hate the military for the same reasons that I convinced them not to join for.

My one friend in particular was VERY difficult to convince, he had the same opinion that he was too dumb for anything else and that it "made him the man he was" .. but I showed him how it was him that was really responsible for his actions, his improvements and his errors, I got him interested in other things, and eventually he moved around a bit but found a very lovely woman, and now he has a child and a wife, and thankfully no nightmares.

I just can't stand to see people make the wrong choice, for the wrong reasons.

Sorry for any people who "support" the military, no offense meant, but it isn't for me or my friends and family (although my uncle is in the Canadian military).. but I believe he has retired, or is able to soon.

I agree with you... Killing children (everyone was a child once) will ruin your life (and theirs)

[edit on 12/9/2008 by PuRe EnErGy]

reply to post by king9072


What a thoughtful and emotional post. Your friend is blessed to have you in his life. I agree. One realizes the cost of war when it is in your face in such a way. My brother took his life due to the things he experienced but never did talk about when he served in Iraq under the first pres Bush. Considering our freedoms have decreased greatly since then, it feels like such a waste.



[edit on 9-12-2008 by justamomma]

the military can be a great place to be if you're young and single, i'd never say "don't join the military". there are lots of jobs available other than infantry and armor and special forces. and if all that fails, join the air force.

i'm sorry but your friend was probably messed up before he went in. there's a very limited range of personality types that go SF and they aren't your average joes to say the least. it's mostly about the tab you wear on your shoulder and the beret you get. recruiters come around ever so often looking for fresh young men. it's a good trap.

i knew lots of people in the army that would've shown more restraint in a situation like that before firing on a civilian vehicle. sorry but it's true.

i can tell you care about your friend but i also think your'e the type of person that would say something like "support our troops" when that's exactly what wwe shouldn't be doing. if you want to support something go support a single mother or a musician. screw the troops, they swore several oaths, asked to be there, and are getting paid for it.

Originally posted by Mozzy

i knew lots of people in the army that would've shown more restraint in a situation like that before firing on a civilian vehicle. sorry but it's true.

From his own words.. "We were just following orders.."

i can tell you care about your friend but i also think your'e the type of person that would say something like "support our troops" when that's exactly what wwe shouldn't be doing. if you want to support something go support a single mother or a musician. screw the troops, they swore several oaths, asked to be there, and are getting paid for it.

Are you kidding? Read every one of my 200 something posts... I think that's a pretty arrogant statement to make without ever reading my posts.

[edit on 9-12-2008 by king9072]

fine fine, but you get the point. all soldiers are not murderers and wouldn't have shredded a car to pieces. maybe a shot or two to get teh point across. the kid's a murderer and he's probably in a unit full of murderers.

sorry for putting words in your mouth but the point is valid. your post is very pro soldier whatever you want to call it. making him sound like a victim.

reply to post by king9072


That is a touching story.

It makes me sad because I have a lot of friends who are in the military now because I was in high school ROTC, this was before the war started.

I know a lot of them are going to come back messed up... like, 'Deer Hunter' messed up, and they were all good people, just trying to serve their country or their family, whatever, and don't deserve the kind of hell as in your story.

I don't know how my post was off-topic............!
But, as someone who killed a baby(abortion), I thought I could give some insight.

I've seen a guy who came back from the first gulf war, addicted to alcohol and drugs because he had been a sniper shooting women and children.
Killing 'on purpose' or accidental are both bad, but when you know you're doing it, it's worse!

reply to post by Clearskies


With respect to your ordeal--I am truly sorry for what you went through-- I think it came of as prosetalyzing...

reply to post by asmeone2


Well, I don't care if I have any followers. That's what proselytizers do, isn't it?
Try to get people to follow them?

Anyway, I KNOW there is no counseling for the effects of abortion (except Christian counseling) and LITTLE from the VA, sometimes, for the PTSD that vets get.
EITHER way if a child is KILLED, it's DEAD.
My mental problems lasted for 4 years because of what I did.
Who cared?
The guilt and lack of understanding from mental health just sent me back into my own mind for help! Suicide attempts, overdoses, agoraphobia, psychotic features............
Jesus FORGAVE me and fixed me.
He can help this guy's friend, too!

[edit on 9-12-2008 by Clearskies]

Originally posted by Mozzy
fine fine, but you get the point. all soldiers are not murderers and wouldn't have shredded a car to pieces. maybe a shot or two to get teh point across. the kid's a murderer and he's probably in a unit full of murderers.

sorry for putting words in your mouth but the point is valid. your post is very pro soldier whatever you want to call it. making him sound like a victim.

Wow, every post you write just further blows my mind. K, seriously here. Have you read the post? Cause I don't think you did, I don't believe even 1 out of 10 people that comes to this thread and reads the post will end with the conclusion, I am "pro soldier" I am in fact, the complete opposite.

I did everything I possibly could to make him stay after finding out that he joined. I did everything I could to make him not get deployed. And when he did, and returned as emotionally damaged as he had, I was pissed. Cause in his bubble, he was doing exactly what he was trained, and supposed to be doing. He wanted to be there, he wanted some action, he just never expected the consequences.

Additionally, as I ALREADY stated, he was simply following orders, and the group of soldiers he was with, all opened fire, after being told to by a superior. Do you know the consequences of insubordinance in the military? He can't simply turn to his commanding officer and say, actually, you know what, I'm not going to fire at that car.

Since you seem to be oblivious of the power that an authority figure has over its underlings perhaps you could familiarize yourself with the Stanley Milgram studies of the 1960's.

Obedience to authority, or just conformity?

Here's what the experiments did:

Stanley Milgram's now famous experiments were designed to test obedience to authority (Milgram, 1963). What Milgram wanted to know was how far humans will go when an authority figure orders them to hurt another human being. Many wondered after the horrors of WWII, and not for the first time, how people could be motivated to commit acts of such brutality towards each other. Not just those in the armed forces, but ordinary people were coerced into carrying out the most cruel and gruesome acts.

But Milgram didn't investigate the extreme situation of war, he wanted to see how people would react under relatively 'ordinary' conditions in the lab. How would people behave when told to give an electrical shock to another person? To what extent would people obey the dictates of the situation and ignore their own misgivings about what they were doing?

During the course of the experiment, each time the 'learner' made a mistake the participant was ordered to administer ever-increasing electrical shocks. Of course the learner kept making mistakes so the teacher (the poor participant) had to keep giving higher and higher electrical shocks, and hearing the resultant screams of pain until finally the learner went quiet.

Participants were not in fact delivering electrical shocks, the learner in the experiment was actually an actor following a rehearsed script. The learner was kept out of sight of the participants so they came to their own assumptions about the pain they were causing. They were, however, left in little doubt that towards the end of the experiment the shocks were extremely painful and the learner might well have been rendered unconscious. When the participant baulked at giving the electrical shocks, the experimenter - an authority figure dressed in a white lab coat - ordered them to continue.

Please follow the link for the entire article that summarizes these studies. It's proven that underlings will follow orders even when they believe they are not right, if the order comes from someone in a position of authority over them. This 'phenomena' is being blamed for the countless atrocities carried out by people over the centuries and especially during world wars.

People go from being peaceful neighbors, to slaying eachother in such a short time. Perhaps when US soldiers are roaming the streets of the country, murdering fellow citizens, it will be another example of how authority trumps reason.

[edit on 9-12-2008 by king9072]