The Probability Of God's Existence

reply to post by AlexG141989


dude, just like the ufo stuff, unless you experience it nobody is going to tell you anything that will convince you. I am so skeptical about everything that it makes me cynical about everything.

I don't know if I am just lucky or if I'm in trouble for not believing others that say God exists. By lucky I mean I know there is an awesome power out there and I am convinced it is God. But maybe I am suppose to say something about it or convince others or something and because I don't I wonder if I will get called on it some day.

For me it would be like telling you that the Patroits lost to the Dolphins. I really could care less if you believed me or not since I know it happened.

I hate hearing about peoples "testimonys" or "witness" stuff...cause I don't believe it and they seem like they are crying out for help or some confirmation or some other stupid thing.

When my experience happened I tested it while it happened, I challenged it, I turned all Carl Sagan and God played along. Wouldn't expect that since I was taught you shall not test or tempt thy God or whatever. I did.

The power, the dude, the entity is there. But of course now that makes me one of those people I can't stand to hear anything from.

So for me this thread was titled "the Patroits could never lose to the Dolphins in 2008" I just am dropping by to say they in fact did lose.

You can't prove God is there....or at least I can't. When you get the chance jump on the chance to make sure for yourself, test him. Some Christians say "you have to open your heart to him in order to hear him"...yeah, not in my case, not even close.

...for me he didn't, doesn't, hasn't ever shown up upon request. So I can't think of anything you can do.

I am sure my fellow Christian friends will take exception to this but who cares....I didn't get the impression that you would be screwed if you didn't believe in him, his capacity to love is impossible to relate and of course Christian's that spout off about it don't have the slightest clue how huge it is...after all they think some people are going to hell or not going to heaven or some other human type style of justice...such small minds.

All I can say bro, is Miami beat New England and a power of unexplainable capability exists.

"There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has allready happened.
Thus the appearance of the Universe."



[edit on 17-10-2008 by azureskys]

Originally posted by PinealGlandThoth
I actually think people have always believed in the Christian God. Not so with other gods such as Zeus, so there is where we differ.

Also, have you considered the possibility that people who have no knowledge of religion in and of itself are drawn to the fact that they must worship some higher power? Consider newly discovered tribes and such. Never is there a case where we have found an "atheistic tribe".

Only recently have we convinced ourselves that God does not exist through so called scientific fact. You cannot believe god exists or that he does not exist through scientific fact for he cannot be derived in that way using our senses or brainpower.

You either have it or you don't.

'Tribes' as you'd like to call them aren't as advanced as us. They don't have means to explain things, nor did those who wrote the Bible. They didn't have as advanced medicine to cure ailments, and other technologies to ward off death. They needed something to look forward to, because death was a lot more common than life back then. They made up things to blame, mythical creatures etc... It's quite obvious the reasons why religion was invented. If we had all the answers right off the bat, we wouldn't need religion. So without answers, we substitute imagination.

And i've never heard of people being drawn to the fact that they must worship a higher power. I never felt that way in my entire life.

Originally posted by JPhish
based on the current scope of basic human knowledge, the probability that a "G*d" exists is 50%.

End of story, there is no way to argue otherwise.

That's ridiculous.
There can be no probability that any human can give because we know to little about the Universe.
But if you're saying the probability based on every theory out there, then it's more like 0.0001%. Who are you to say that God's existence is more likely than Zeus' existence? With the scope of basic human knowledge, you can't. There's just as much 'probability' that pink aliens control our Universe for all we know. And believe it or not, I'm sure there IS a theory for that because there's a theory for just about anything.

If an object is about to fall on the ground and you want to predict which side it's going to land on, you first have to know how many sides there are.
Which is why we can give no accurate probability or even assume any estimate is remotely accurate.

dude, just like the ufo stuff, unless you experience it nobody is going to tell you anything that will convince you. I am so skeptical about everything that it makes me cynical about everything.

No, they're nothing alike. There have been cases where hundreds of people, all at the same time witness an unidentified object in the sky. These are credible people ranging from pilots, to officers. You do not have to believe in UFO's to have been able to see it if you were there. There has never once been a reported case where a large amount of people all recieve some sort of divine message from God all at the same time. (unless of course it is some brainwashed, mass suicidal cult)...

reply to post by AlexG141989


Exactly. Clearly UFOs exist (what exactly each sighting is off, however, is still unknown in a load of cases).

We have to be rational. That is the only way to learn.

reply to post by AlexG141989


I agree. UFOs > God , probability-wise. It's sort of undeniable. The only evidence (if you can call it that) of God, are religious texts, which for the most part can't really be taken seriously. If you really think someone was able to split an entire sea in half, then you're just loony.

reply to post by panda319


UFOs are certain. We know of flying objects which are unknown. That is 100% true.

God, however, only exists in the minds of people who have read the texts that describe him or who have been told about him. No two people completely unconnected anywhere in the world have come up with the same idea of God. That, to me, would suggest he's a figment of peoples' imaginations.

Originally posted by AlexG141989

No, we probably would be here, but in another form. Our environment didn't evolve to suit us, we evolved to suit our environment.

This was a great problem that was addressed at a physics convention. Did the universe have to be created the way it was, with Plancks constant, the speed of light, all exactly the value that they are, or could they have been varied. Did the universe evolve, rising out of a pile of sugar into a cake, or did the cook have to follow an exact recipe? Did God have a choice in the matter? Could the universe have been created with different constants?

That makes no sense, evolution goes completely against christianity, and how creation is described in Genesis.

I think we already addressed this

I think you and I are not so different after all.

First of all I don't like to place a label on "God" at all, I believe in a higher power that is inherently good, however we must still follow in his path or face the consequences whatever they may be. I believe that many people misinterpret the Bible and its contents and that it is being mangled all the time and the results of this is that fewer and fewer people appreciate what religion stands for.

You are getting delightfully close to what I call "Mathematical Truth", my own term mind you. What if God is in fact the truth that makes 1 plus 1 equal 2? In the Bible there are countless verse pointing to the fact that God or "God" , is all around us, he prevades every orifice and corner of the universe. What if God is good and can't help it? What if he is evil and can't help it? I usually prefer to stick with Math like Einstein when trying to understand concepts that are usually beyond me. The mathematical proof works better than words.

Originally posted by PinealGlandThoth
I believe that many people misinterpret the Bible and its contents and that it is being mangled all the time and the results of this is that fewer and fewer people appreciate what religion stands for.

Tell us what religion stands for. You and all the other 34,000 sects of Christianity think each of the others has it wrong. You all have different interpretations of the Bible. You all have a different standpoint and perspective. You claim you're all right, yet you're all reading the same book.

Religion doesn't stand for anything except believing in something that can't be proven, which isn't something to brag about.

Originally posted by TruthParadox
That's ridiculous.
There can be no probability that any human can give because we know to little about the Universe.

that's why the only probability one could claim is 50% . . .

But if you're saying the probability based on every theory out there, then it's more like 0.0001%.

baseless claim which contradicts your first point.

And no.

Who are you to say that God's existence is more likely than Zeus' existence?

Here's a proof that "THE G*D" has a higher probability of existence than "a god". I presented this proof to you in a previous thread and you ignored it.

Originally posted by JPhish
(a primordial) G*ds’ probability of existence is actually greater than that of Zeus’ (or any other sub G*d). The Judeo-Christian G*d (for example) might be on par with that of the Greek god Khaos in this respect.

The reasoning here is that Zeus’ existence, even when accepting the premise that he can exist within both theologies, is reliant on at least one of the other two primordial deities subsisting; concomitantly or otherwise.

With the scope of basic human knowledge, you can't. There's just as much 'probability' that pink aliens control our Universe for all we know. And believe it or not, I'm sure there IS a theory for that because there's a theory for just about anything.

depends on how the pink aliens operate.

If an object is about to fall on the ground and you want to predict which side it's going to land on, you first have to know how many sides there are.
Which is why we can give no accurate probability or even assume any estimate is remotely accurate.

no; there is no proof against or for the existence of a supernatural entity that governs. governed, or created this universe. Therefore the probability of such a beings existence is 50%.

Originally posted by PinealGlandThoth
I was only trying to point out the fact that many people desire something more from the world, as if deep down they don't feel satisfied and have the desire to create a deity or all powerful being to explain it all.

Also, (not trying to be a bigot, just supporting the facts), Christianity was the first religion that says we can know God and learn his secrets. It says the we can become like him, basically allowing for all of science to be studied to exhaustion. Some people object saying that mathematics was first invented in the Muslim community, or even with Pythagoras, or the Babylonians. Not so, there religion did not permit them to study ALL sciences to the extent of their curiosity. Christianity supports all science.

Here are some religous scientist to mull over, think about their area of study.

-Albert Einstein (believed in the impossibility of the non-created universe)

-Max Planck (believed in omni-present God)

-Isaac Newton (Found it impossible to believe that the universe just happened)

-Charles Hard Townes - Nobel Prize in Physics (wrote "convergence of science and religion)

-Allan Sandage (Jewish Astronomer converted to Christianity later in life)

just to name a few

You can see many atheist scientists over the years converting to some type of religion after seeing the results of their research. So are you saying that countries that have a large body of intelligent people hold more atheists because intelligent people realize that atheism is the way to go?

Thanks for the reply,obviously there has been thousands of organised religious institutions invented or conceived down the years,all brazenly stating that 'they are the true path' and all claiming completely different contradictory things-all of them cannot be right (if any).
I'm sure that christianity has also stated many of these claims but the problem lies in you addressing this religious rhetoric as 'fact' when ,in reality, it is nothing more than 'specualtion and conjecture'.
You refer to god as a him-how do you unequivocably know god is not a she,a they or an it?
I think this quote from good old Fred Nietzsche sums it up quite well:

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."

When you think about it objectively,outlandish though it sounds,I could start a cult worshipping a turnip and it would as much credibiltiy and feasiblity as yours.
As for cherrypicking halftruths and (maybe unintentionaly) misrepresenting the mindsets and agendas of some of the greatest scientists of modern times,there are just as many quotes out there that contradict your findings.

Who knows there may well be a god AND all organised religions on this planet be wrong.
The trouble is with discussions like this is there is not one scrap of evidence to go on so everybody is destined just to keep 'running around the mullberry bush' and having pointless,neverending,cyclic arguments which,in the end,acheive nothing.

Just be nice and treat people the same-perhaps that message is the only important one.



[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Originally posted by JPhish
that's why the only probability one could claim is 50% . . .

Completely untrue.
To something which you do not have enough knowledge, you can give NO number as far as probability.

Originally posted by JPhish

But if you're saying the probability based on every theory out there, then it's more like 0.0001%.

baseless claim which contradicts your first point.

And no.

It does NOT contradict my first statement because I said "if you're saying the probability based on every theory out there" which would be claiming that only the theories we know about are possibilities. Of course this would be absurd, but most people would use this method.

Originally posted by JPhish
Here's a proof that "THE G*D" has a higher probability of existence than "a god". I presented this proof to you in a previous thread and you ignored it.

That's your opinion. If I say that pink fairies run the Universe, then the probability that I'm correct is the same as the probability that God exists because we have nothing to prove otherwise. This is purely mathematicle, as the number derived is based on math.
Believe me when I say I know what I'm talking about. I took Calculus and used to program in my free time and I understand what probability is better than most.

Originally posted by JPhish
no; there is no proof against or for the existence of a supernatural entity that governs. governed, or created this universe. Therefore the probability of such a beings existence is 50%.

Completely untrue.
Let me show you how probability is determined because you don't seem to understand.

Let's say we have a dice which has 6 sides.
What's the probability that the dice will land on '1'?
The probability is 1/6 or 16.6666666%.
We KNOW this because we KNOW the number of sides which the dice has.

Now take God.
How many other possibilities are there other than God?
Infinity: for the simple fact that I can pull anything out of my arse and you can't say it's impossible just as I can not say God is impossible.
So the math would read as 1/oo.
So what is this number?
undefined.
Just as 1/0 is not a number, 1/oo is not a number.
Therefor there can be no probability.
However, as I said before, if you are going on the bases of every theory we do have (which again would assume that one of our theories is in fact correct) then the probability of God's existence would be very small.

So tell me the math of how you get 50%?
I bet you say that there are two choices:
Either God exists or he doesn't.
and 1/2 =50%.
That would be like me saying the probability of getting the number '1' in a dice is 50% because the number will either be '1' or it won't be '1'.
Therefor the probability that you will get '1' on a dice is 50%...
See how ridiculous your claim is now?

[edit on 18-10-2008 by TruthParadox]

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by panda319

 

UFOs are certain. We know of flying objects which are unknown. That is 100% true.

God, however, only exists in the minds of people who have read the texts that describe him or who have been told about him. No two people completely unconnected anywhere in the world have come up with the same idea of God. That, to me, would suggest he's a figment of peoples' imaginations.

Dave,good post.
Good old George Carlin made some quite astute points (RIP)
video.google.com...#
Cheers Karl

Originally posted by TruthParadox
Completely untrue.
To something which you do not have enough knowledge, you can give NO number as far as probability.

I agree, but if one were to give any number the only number they could give is 50% because it is the most indecisive percentage of probability.

It does NOT contradict my first statement because I said "if you're saying the probability based on every theory out there" which would be claiming that only the theories we know about are possibilities. Of course this would be absurd, but most people would use this method.

yes it does. “You said apples are always red.” And then proceeded to say, “Unless you’re talking about green apples.”

That's your opinion.

No it’s not. It’s a fact. Zeus could not exist without Khaos. Zues and any other god could not exist without ANY primordial God. Therefore the probability of existence for a god is less (even if minutely) than that of a God.


If I say that pink fairies run the Universe, then the probability that I'm correct is the same as the probability that God exists because we have nothing to prove otherwise. unless fairies created the universe with God, then no. There are also other requirements that the fairies would have to meet to have an equal probability of existance.

Let's say we have a dice which has 6 sides.
What's the probability that the dice will land on '1'?
The probability is 1/6 or 16.6666666%.
We KNOW this because we KNOW the number of sides which the dice has.

yup

Now take God.

How many other possibilities are there other than God?

Irrelevant.

Infinity: for the simple fact that I can pull anything out of my arse and you can't say it's impossible just as I can not say God is impossible.

incorrect

So the math would read as 1/oo.

1/2*

So what is this number?

1/2*

However, as I said before, if you are going on the bases of every theory we do have (which again would assume that one of our theories is in fact correct) then the probability of God's existence would be very small.

No

So tell me the math of how you get 50%?
I bet you say that there are two choices:
Either God exists or he doesn't.
and 1/2 =50%.

yes, this is the only logical way to apply a percentage to this situation.

That would be like me saying the probability of getting the number '1' in a dice is 50% because the number will either be '1' or it won't be '1'.

No, it’s not. God exists (1) or he doesn’t (2) there is no (3) (4) (5) (6) etc. Here’s a more accurate analogy concerning a dice . . .

God exists (odd numbers 1 3 5 etc)
God doesn’t exist (2 4 6 etc)

There are different numbers/variations within the ultimate possibilities; but only two inevitable truths. The numbers are odd or even. God exists or doesn’t.

Therefor the probability that you will get '1' on a dice is 50%...
See how ridiculous your claim is now?

The probability is not the same as a dice throw. This has to do with the probability of existence of the unknown.

reply to post by JPhish


So according to you there's a 50% chance that God exists.
Then there would also be a 50% chance that Zeus exists.
There would also be a 50% chance that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists.
That's an accumulated percentage of 150% that one of these god's exists.
It's also an accumulated percentage of 150% that none of them exist.
So according to you, these gods DO and DO NOT exist.
Why is it accumulated? Because in each belief, the other diety does not exist.



If there's an object with 'x' amount of sides, then what is the probability that it will land on side '1'.
Ask any friggin' mathmatician and they will tell you the answer is undefined.
It's TRUE that there are 2 possibilities:
1) the object will land on side '1'
2) the object will not land on side '1'

But that does not give it a 50% probability that the object will land on side '1', because we do not know how many sides there are (or in this case, supposed dieties/other theories).


You're saying that either:
1) God exists
2) God doesn't exist

But in the "God doesn't exist" category, there are infinite 'sides' or deities, so it holds more 'weight'.
You're not looking at the big picture.

Originally posted by JPhish
I agree, but if one were to give any number the only number they could give is 50% because it is the most indecisive percentage of probability.

But you CAN'T give a number because there isn't enough information.
If you DO give a number, it's assumed.

Originally posted by JPhish

It does NOT contradict my first statement because I said "if you're saying the probability based on every theory out there" which would be claiming that only the theories we know about are possibilities. Of course this would be absurd, but most people would use this method.

yes it does. “You said apples are always red.” And then proceeded to say, “Unless you’re talking about green apples.”

Read the context.
Again, I said you can not give a probability of God's existence.
Then I said the only closest thing you could do would be to round up every OTHER theory and add it to a pile (think of a hat with every theory as a piece of paper) and then do the math that way.
I continued to say that this would be flawed, as it would take the assumption that there can be no other theories which is of course absurd.
I was ONLY saying that if you wanted to come up with a probability BASED on the theories we DO have, then that's how you would go about doing it.

Originally posted by JPhish
No it’s not. It’s a fact. Zeus could not exist without Khaos. Zues and any other god could not exist without ANY primordial God. Therefore the probability of existence for a god is less (even if minutely) than that of a God.

It doesn't matter.
I could say that Jesus is less likely to have existed because he required God to exist in his divine state.
I could also come up with an alternative theory which states that Zeus was the FIRST, in which, according to you, the probability for Zeus' existence would be 50%.


I wish a mathematician were here to back me up in this, though it's really not a hard concept to understand to begin with.
The probability of God's existence is undefined just as any other god.

You are a child of the Universe.

The probability of the impossible?

The pottery stands, and denies the existence of the potter.

The Life of St Issa ( Jesus )

5 But Issa then said: "The miracles of our God have been worked since the first day when the universe was created; they take place every day and at every moment. Whosoever seeth them not is deprived of one of the fairest gifts of life.

Peace

will you reply Paradox?

Originally posted by TruthParadox
So according to you there's a 50% chance that God exists.
Then there would also be a 50% chance that Zeus exists.
There would also be a 50% chance that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists.

Flying spaghetti monster, yes
Zeus, no
But you get the idea

That's an accumulated percentage of 150% that one of these god's exists.

They don’t get added up.

So according to you, these gods DO and DO NOT exist.

No, do OR don’t

Why is it accumulated? Because in each belief, the other diety does not exist.

the deities can subsist concomitantly.

If there's an object with 'x' amount of sides, then what is the probability that it will land on side '1'.
Ask any friggin' mathmatician and they will tell you the answer is undefined.
It's TRUE that there are 2 possibilities:
1) the object will land on side '1'
2) the object will not land on side '1'

You’re looking at it the wrong way. You’re acknowledging a “side” when there isn’t even necessarily a side.

But that does not give it a 50% probability that the object will land on side '1', because we do not know how many sides there are (or in this case, supposed dieties/other theories).

we’re not dealing with an object you can toss around. This is about a supernatural deities existence. The probability is 50%. This probability can never be higher than 50% unless that probability was to become 100%. It can however become a lower percentage as requisites for that supernatural beings existence become vacant.

You're saying that either:
1) God exists
2) God doesn't exist

But in the "God doesn't exist" category, there are infinite 'sides' or deities, so it holds more 'weight'.
You're not looking at the big picture.

You’re looking at it all wrong man. There are no sides. It either is, or isn’t.

But you CAN'T give a number because there isn't enough information.
If you DO give a number, it's assumed.

That’s what I’m saying. There are only 3 percentages which may not be assumptions. 100% 50% 0%

It doesn't matter.
I could say that Jesus is less likely to have existed because he required God to exist in his divine state.

And you’d be right

I could also come up with an alternative theory which states that Zeus was the FIRST, in which, according to you, the probability for Zeus' existence would be 50%.

exactly. (without getting into details)

I wish a mathematician were here to back me up in this, though it's really not a hard concept to understand to begin with.

I agree that it’s not; I understand what you’re saying. But you’re going about it all wrong.

The probability of God's existence is undefined just as any other god.

i agree, but if one had to give a percentage. It would be less than 50%, 0% or 100%


[edit on 10/19/2008 by JPhish]