Catholic Bashing

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage


It is no secret that I am not a big fan of the Catholic Church...(But I am trying to learn and to be more objective...honestly) but a site dedicated to Agnosticism and Atheism IMO would tend to be just a tad biased in its opinion.
That said, thanks for linking it. Some interesting reading ahead for me...

[edit on 14/10/2008 by VIKINGANT]

reply to post by VIKINGANT


You can search any information on the site and you will find it in countless other places. I post it because there is no proven bias against this site, and I don’t suspect there will be in the future. The searches for information are also quite convenient and the team of experts collecting or writing the articles will feel free to send you information to the sources they cite if you ask courteously for them. I’ve written several papers with their help actually, nice bunch of people.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Yo prof ! we meet again .
Who was it who said the following ?

be ye not like the hypocrites who pray in the synagogues ..
Pray to your father in secret .

Or in other words .Dont waste your time with bloody churches that take your money and make a mockery of love and compassion.

The only reason the catholic church does not allow condoms is so that they will continue to have a large poverty stricken congregation of guilt ridden hell fearing sinners .

Oh and by the way ,your church has just admited the probable existence of aliens !!!!

beam me up jesus , there's no intelligent life in the vatican .

reply to post by VIKINGANT

I am sorry if this sems sarcastic, but in essence of the thread, why is the Catholic church the be all and end all of what is going on in the world?

This last question of yours is a huge one which I am minded to produce a thread about at sometime in the future as I read more on these pages. Catholic teaching has much to say about so many of the subjects here that I grow in my belief that "The Catholic Church Is It!" However, the weakness of the human condition, something we have also talked about for generations, makes such declarations dangerous not intrinsically but in the manner in which others might receive them as an excuse to shoot the messenger or shoot everyone who doesn't agree with the messenger!

You honestly don't seem sartcastic at all, your questions are ones which should be treated seriously by any thoughtful believer. If I can take the UFO question first. It caused such a stir because of the caricature of Catholicism as being "anti-science" this is due, in no small part, to the confusion of Catholicism with certain fundamentalist strains of Christianity. Catholicism is not fundamentalist. As far back as the 11th Century the Pope was giving an "orb" to the Holy Roman Emperor as a sign of his global imperial rights - an orb, not a disk. The Gallileo controversy has again been caricatured as a revulsion for the notion of a heliocentric system but careful reference to the actual controversy shows, and always has, that Gallileos condemnation was a consequence of his dedicating his boook to the wrong cardinal - it was politics, more than science that caused this. A quick search for Geroge LeMaitre and Gregor Mendel will demonstrate to everyone the compatibility of Catholicism and science. The fact that the priest who spoke of UFOs is the head of the Vatican Observatory one of the oldest observatories in the world should say something. The Catholic Church did NOT say "there are aliens", the head of the Holy See's observatory said there is no problem in believing there might be and then engaged in a discussion of those possibilities and what it might mean in religious terms.

Rather than apologising for seeming sarcastic I should perhaps apologise for using hyperbole to reply to your OP. The four phenomena I alluded to can be further referred to as follows:
Saracens: the century at either side of the end of the first millenium when many were afraid but only one voice or entity had the influence and authority to unite against the material and spiritual threat it represented.
Environment: The Fransciscan movement, again not the caricature of Francis but the response to the growing culture which saw creation as only a resource for the rich to the detriment of nature itself and the poor.
Capitalism: Leo XIII (1891) encyclical Rerum Novarum which tackles unfettered capitalism and one of the other voices that warned against it (Communist Socialism) Here's one line from it, particularly pertinent to current circumstances: "the rich must religiously refrain from cutting down the workmen's earnings, whether by force, by fraud, or by usurious dealing."
"Sexual Liberation": Paul VI (1968) Humanae Vitae One prophetic aspect of this is in paragraph 17: a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner."

The thread has already provoked some bashing. To all I say remember the bloodiest century in human history was the first Godless scientific/technological one.

[edit on 14/10/08 by Supercertari]

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
To ProfEmeritus and EricD I’m sorry if you take offense becaue I stated actual history.

How on earth did you construe that I took offense because I asked if you were speaking about the Church in general or were referencing recent history? I thought that was a fairly reasonable and innocuous question.

Eric

[edit on 14-10-2008 by EricD]

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
You can search any information on the site and you will find it in countless other places. I post it because there is no proven bias against this site, and I don’t suspect there will be in the future.

Just so that I'm properly understanding you, are you saying that this site:
atheism.about.com...

is without bias?

I wanted to ask for clarification due to your saying '... against this site'.

Thanks,

Eric

I am Catholic...

I do not have any "faith in myself". I put all of my faith in God. And there is no secrecy at the Vatican. The Vatican has no "wealth". It is all donated money to keep up the Church. Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, and the Pope himself have very little if no earthly possesions. And the Vatican has just as much "political pull" as any other major world religion. When your a major world religion you get "policitcal pull" there is no way around it. And the Vatican is not an "idol" that Catholics worship. I don't know how many times I have to say this to Catholic bashers, WE DO NOT WORSHIP ANYONE OR ANYTHING BUT GOD THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT.

And yes there are so many churches... so many denominations that's the Elites plan just like how the elite set up dual party government system to make us fight , choose and confuse.

Trust Jesus and his church it will not fall as he promised ,The illuminati seeks its destruction but cant so they can only try stop you from communing with God ...

You blame everyone involved with the church for what some corrupt ones did to children? It's not about "covering up". It's about forgiveness. Just because your a priest doesn't make you a child molester. The amount of preists who did that were microscopic compared to the good and pious priests that are on this earth. The media just blew it up so much that it seemed like a widespread epedemic. If you trust the media then your not denying ignorance. Catholicism isn't a cult. It's been around for 2000 years, I doubt a "cult" could survive that long. You can believe in whatever conspiratory lies you hear, but don't bash a religion that has been around for 2000 years and is held dear by 1.8 billion people worldwide dont be a ignorant fool. Or are you part of the problem spreading dis-info to the truth movement?

I am sorry your wrong its is the Rapture methos that is going to lead Christians to the antichrist, King James was freemasonic the protestant and Baptist sects are leading to idolatry of the world of God they will soon except homosexuality and abortion. Were as the catholic church will never submit to pop culture and dose not support Rapture ( YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THERE FRUITS ) and yes of course there have been infiltrators that seek to harm Gods church from the inside and they have been ousted, as for the God's Banker crap yes more Freemason fine works what did they find in his pockets BRICKS that hmmm can you say masons? just another inside job just like they did with pedfile priest look up how many were freemasons and OTO members that something you didn't see in the news... These vile people needed to be close to church to steal the Host for black masses, why go thru all that trouble and just go to a protestant and Baptist, easy answer no holy Eucharist

Your no better than Zeitgeist to have a opportunity to guide people to the truth and yet you have fallen for the biggest trap of them all leading your herd to the horde and away from Gods Church... I will always pray for you, God Bless

reply to post by urza2k4


Hi,

I appreciate your sentiment and your fervor, but I wanted to try to clarify two points.

1) The Vatican does, indeed, have substantial wealth. In addition to the monies that are donated and revenues generated from tourism, there is the inherent dollar value in real estate holdings and artwork.

This isn't a bad thing. The vast majority of the money taken in by the Church goes towards expenses such as hospices, orphanages, outreach to the poor, soup kitchens, infrastructure, salaries and so on. Having investments that are long term allows for some stability in case of economic setbacks (like the last two weeks) and often generates it's own revenue (from museums and the like).

2) To a very large extent it is indeed about 'covering up' and not forgiveness. To deny that doesn't help anyone. The acts attempting to cover up the scandal and avoiding culpability by playing three card monte with the guilty (albeit not representative) priests was a horrific act and one of the worst in the history of the Church.

The damage done to the victims and to those who have left the Church is incalculable.

Eric

Originally posted by EricD
reply to post by urza2k4

 

Hi,

I appreciate your sentiment and your fervor, but I wanted to try to clarify two points.

1) The Vatican does, indeed, have substantial wealth. In addition to the monies that are donated and revenues generated from tourism, there is the inherent dollar value in real estate holdings and artwork.

This isn't a bad thing. The vast majority of the money taken in by the Church goes towards expenses such as hospices, orphanages, outreach to the poor, soup kitchens, infrastructure, salaries and so on. Having investments that are long term allows for some stability in case of economic setbacks (like the last two weeks) and often generates it's own revenue (from museums and the like).

2) To a very large extent it is indeed about 'covering up' and not forgiveness. To deny that doesn't help anyone. The acts attempting to cover up the scandal and avoiding culpability by playing three card monte with the guilty (albeit not representative) priests was a horrific act and one of the worst in the history of the Church.

The damage done to the victims and to those who have left the Church is incalculable.

Eric

your just looking for a reasons thats wrong there are millions of building and people that money go to keep it running, and agian the amount of preists who did that were microscopic compared to the good and pious priests that are on this earth. The media just blew it up so much that it seemed like a widespread epedemic...

The church will always be under attack by the followers of the Craft... Wake up

Originally posted by red_leader
I mean if you're gonna ask why people hate catholicism, you have to mention their bloody war mongering past!!!!!!! Hello???

Just about everything you said could also be said in one way or another about the protestants. Hello???

Originally posted by candyfloss
Catholic Bashing?Is it that time of the year already?

It goes in waves here. It'll be quiet for a few months and then for a month or two it'll be insane here with anti-catholic divel.

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
Catholic leaders have been known for supporting some of the most evil and oppressive movements of our time, and have been linked to the worst of people in our history.

I think you are confusing Pope Benedict with the leaders of China and North Korea. They aren't even close to being the same.

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
atheism.about.com...

I saw so many errors on that site, I'd not even know where to begin.

Originally posted by reconpilot
[The only reason the catholic church does not allow condoms is so that they will continue to have a large poverty stricken congregation of guilt ridden hell fearing sinners .

Newsflash - that teaching (which I disagree with) is based upon the concept of ONANISM - which is in the bible. Until about 60 years ago every Christian denomination believed that Onanism was a sin. It's not a catholic thing.

,your church has just admited the probable existence of aliens !!!! .

Yes, that was nice. They are ahead of the game. It's VERY probable that aliens exist in some fashion. Considering the size of the universe - it's very probable. That was progressive of them to admit this. Now if only the protestants would be so reasonable.

Originally posted by urza2k4
your just looking for a reasons thats wrong there are millions of building and people that money go to keep it running, and agian the amount of preists who did that were microscopic compared to the good and pious priests that are on this earth. The media just blew it up so much that it seemed like a widespread epedemic...

The church will always be under attack by the followers of the Craft... Wake up

Did you even read what I wrote? Seriously.

First:

1) The fact that the Church has the largest outreach in the world for those in need does not change the fact that the Church has substantial wealth built into it's financial portfolio. These things are not mutually exclusive.

2) As a Catholic I would hope that you wouldn't be propagating a belief that good and evil are subjective and relative. They are not. Evil was far too pervasive in almost every facet of the recent abuse scandals. Evil is an absolute. The fact that it was a tiny minority of priests that victimized these children does not lessen the crimes. For you to minimize what happened by implying it isn't relevant does neither your argument nor the Church any good.

Although the media did not present a balanced picture, the scandal was NOT the fault of the media. It was the fault of those that committed these crimes and those that attempted to cover it up.

And please, take a look at other threads about Catholicism before jumping to the concussion that I am looking for reasons to bash the Church.

Wake up.

Eric

reply to post by FlyersFan

I saw so many errors on that site, I'd not even know where to begin.

Don't have much time to discuss this now, however I'd like for you to show me where and to cite sources for each error. Thank you in advance. If these errors are so easy to spot you should have no trouble. Hope to see them collected and posted when I'm back on tomorrow.

reply to post by EricD


EricD don't take things so personally, I sort of just threw your name into that post because I didn't have time to reply to both of you. I didn't bother replying to your post because the site I posted clarifies what I meant, I'm discussing the entire history of the Catholic Church and Catechism in general. Sorry if my grammatical error confused you, thankfully I’m sure many caught it and understood what I meant. Have yet to see anyone prove this site is biased, and if you question anything you read there e-mail them and kindly ask for sources.

catholic bashing is just really easy i guess. the thing is that any large institution or group with a defined leadership is incredibly useful for masking and enabling the intentions of bad people.

in the era of the catholic atrocities of the middle ages, for instance, the catholic church was used as an alternative to aristocratic advancement. the people who joined the church did not do so due to vocation but rather with an eye to power. it had nothing to do with a strong catholic faith, it uasually didn't even require an understanding of the latin that would have been required at the time to understand the workings of the faith.

the easy punch, pop history view of the catholic church espoused by certain posters to this thread makes for a seemingly flawless argument, as long as inconvenient things like context aren't required, while a thorough examination of the facts seems to be almost akin to a disrespect for atheist beliefs.

but then again, the catholic church is a big and ritualistic mystery religion, guess it's always going to invite accusations of conspiracy. there's also the fact that members of the church were involved in a conspiracy or two.

like anything else, it isn't a simple answer.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well, Catholicism, much like the Masons, is a rich and powerful organization. It has been my observation that anything that wields a lot of power tends to attract other group's ire.

funny you should phrase it that way, as I have many times been told that Catholicism is comparable to a watered-down version of Freemasonry.

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
Have yet to see anyone prove this site is biased, and if you question anything you read there e-mail them and kindly ask for sources.

There are 12 headers on the front page with blurbs that lead to full articles. Of the 12 six can be considered negative, six can be considered neutral and none can be considered positive.

That seems fairly biased to me.

Please note that I’m not taking exception to the claims made in the articles, that would be a huge undertaking and each would deserve its own thread. I’m merely pointing out that it is hard to accept that the claim of a lack of bias. There are no articles about the Church supporting legislation to eliminate the sex slave trade. There are no articles about Catholic hospices. There are no articles about the Church’s outspoken opposition to the war in Iraq (or any war that would be considered ‘unjust’).

Eric

reply to post by EricD

That seems fairly biased to me.

Feel free to U2U me with proof that the claims made in the articles are not true. Who cares how the author tackles them? I see no false statments. I only see truth being stated that some may not like or take issue with. Then read an article that panders to your way of thinking, but don't claim a site is biased simply because you do not favor the articles or their "tone".

[edit on 14-10-2008 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage


I think what ErikD is saying and as I pointed out earlier, a site dedicated to Agnostics and Athiests will naturally not show the Catholic church (or any Church for that matter) in good light.

The information may indeed be factual but not necessarily paint the whole picture, showing only one point of view, therefore one sided or....here it comes...biased.

I think what everyone would like to see is for you to have a look at a more balanced source.