Catholic Bashing

reply to post by VIKINGANT


Everything stated in the articles is facts though and describes perfectly why I look at the Catholic Church the way I do. Collectively there are few religious organizations that are not considered cults that have so horridly plagued a society. That’s my opinion, not one I plan on changing, however I stated it and someone asked me to defend factual statements I made, and I did so. Now people just ignore that the information is factual and try to attack the source. Yes, most sources you find will be biased in some way. People can disagree with the conclusions the articles come to, that does not weigh out that the articles come to these conclusions through logic and facts.

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage


Oh, an atheist website. Gee, I would really believe anything that they say about God and religion.

Why don't you read what REALLY happened during WWII, and Pope Pius XII:

Pope Pius XII - Pius XII's Activities During World War II

On the same day that Germany invaded Poland, Pius XII telegraphed the papal nuncio in Warsaw with instructions to organize Polish Jews for a passage to Palestine.[citation needed] One of the crucial terms of the concordat with Germany was that German officials were to regard baptized Jews as Christians. Accordingly, Pius ordered his nuncio in Turkey (Angelo Roncalli, the future Pope John XXIII) to prepare thousands of baptismal certificates for refugee Jews arriving in Istanbul in the hope that such papers would gain them passage into the country. (When he was later thanked for his extensive lifesaving work, Roncalli said, "In all these painful matters I have referred to the Holy See and simply carried out the Pope's orders: first and foremost to save Jewish lives.") As the war went on, such documents were freely distributed in all occupied nations, and Pius established a committee that helped thousands of Jews leave Europe with identification showing that they were under the protection of the Catholic Church.[citation needed] (Documents issued by the Church also allowed thousands of Nazis and other war criminals to assume false identities and escape to freedom in Latin America.[citation needed])

After the Nazis invaded the small nations of the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Belgium, Pius sent expressions of sympathy to the Queen of the Netherlands, the King of Belgium, and the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg. When the Italian Fascist dictator Mussolini learned of the warnings and the telegrams of sympathy, he took them as a personal affront and had his ambassador to the Vatican file an official protest, charging that Pius had taken sides against Italy's ally Germany. The Pope responded that his conscience was at ease and added, "We are not afraid to go to a concentration camp.".[citation needed] In any case, Mussolini's foreign minister claimed that Pius XII was "ready to let himself be deported to a concentration camp, rather than do anything against his conscience" (Dalin, p. 76)[4].

www.experiencefestival.com...

Read the ENTIRE site. You will see that Pope Pius XII did more to save the Jews than any man on earth. There were many Jews that survived to tell the story of how the Vatican saved their lives.

But, go ahead, dwell in your fairy tales, keep that hatred going in your heart. When all you have is hatred, it is hard to see the truth.

reply to post by reconpilot

Oh and by the way ,your church has just admited the probable existence of aliens !!!!

beam me up jesus , there's no intelligent life in the vatican .

Very interesting from a person who claims that he has many friends that are aliens:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I knew it , another born again christian who is not quite ready to come out of the closet . So when Jesus said "think not that I came to bring peace but a sword " what did he mean by that EXACTLY ?
Of course its subject to INTERPRETATION , always the most conveniant excuse for brainwashed god botherers .
I Have seen and talked to many alien species , they are my friends .
can you say the same for Jesus ? NO .
I dont give a stuff about your beliefs and when your god does not show up to save you , you will question your blind faith TOO .

Proof ? you cant handle the proof. I have seen a Jehovahs wittness Jibber and sweat with fear when one of my Alien friends walked up behind me and showed himself . He showed himself because this creep was a threat to me and my family .

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Not a crazy notion at all , it happens to be true .
The evidence for your ET origins are everywhere you look and in your DNA.
If you ever come to visit OZ , let me know and I can tell you a beach you can visit where I can guarantee half the people you will see there are Aliens ! Its funny because we take it for granted but its true nonetheless .
You will notice a lot of the guys and galls have Dragon Tattoos . You will notice lots of grey and green eyes , you will notice a lot of guys have monobrows ( a classic altairian male feature ) .
You will notice altairians generally have square jawed faces , very handsome , lean and muscular . Always polite to the ladies .

Of course, your profession of atheism is in your own words:

Their livelihoods ,their precious ,predatory religious protection rackets and on it goes.
Your God , the one so many of you blindly worship , is just a stranded alien who lost his technology and power when he went to war with our people . He's stuck here .All he wants is to get off ,escape his punishment . He cares only for himself . He loves only himself.

But because most humans try to emulate his modus operandi , you lie ,you cheat you ,you war and rape ,wherever you go . You copy his behaviour because he is your 'GOD'. Your Jealous god, your only god .
His time is almost up , he is panicking ,he cannot escape and so he throws everything out there in a last desperate bid for the freedom he has denied you all for so long . Let the bastard go , he does not serve you ,he does not care about you . The evidence for that is all around you .

He claims to be your father because you are his genetic experiment , according to him. How do you claim ownership of anyones soul !
Ridiculous . HE was a genetic experiment .The star trek episodes built around the story of Kahn are based on him.

News Flash- Star Trek is not REAL. It's just TV.

Of course, you actually proclaim that you are an alien here:

Do you want to know what most ET's REALLY think of you humans ?
You actually wonder why we have so little to do with you on this planet ?
because you are vicious ,mindless , lying predators who have no respect for anything or anyone beyond your own STUPID BELIEFS .

A little later on, you make this claim:

Why take a picture of an Altairian and post it here when they look just like humans only sexier ! and more honourable .
The real differences are on the inside .
So you keep banging your head against the wall , you will only be the more easy to manipulate when your god sends you to the trenches .

So next time your walking down the street ask yourself what your god meant when he says he created you in his own image then allowed his
men to sleep with your daughters ? Hmmmmm......

so he created your women as whores and left you to work the mines .Charming god you have . Still if thats your definition of love , go for it .

And as for the Lizards , mate , you would crap your pants the moment one took his cloak off .but you wont have to wait much longer ,hell ,even the catholics are crawling up australia's arse to avoid credibility melt down when the truth does come out . The pope has even given us special envoy access to his holiness now, I wonder why that might be .

Somehow , I dont think you will still be posting here when disclosure is complete though.

The sad part about this austrALIEN encounter between you and me is that I dont see you as an enemy at all . Your fear and ignorance yes, but
You ,the REAL you , not at all.

Of course, I debunked your claim that you were really a reconpilot for the Royal Australian Air Force. Why don't you go get a new member name, like
"WatchALot ofTV&Can'tDistinguish-itfromReality".

My suggestion to you still goes. You need serious psychiatric help. If you don't want to seek it, why don't you at least keep your stories straight?
You claim to be an alien, you have alien friends, but the Vatican is crazy for allowing the possibility that they may exist.

Every quote above is from you, straight off the threads you posted to.


[edit on 14-10-2008 by ProfEmeritus]

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
reply to post by EricD

 

That seems fairly biased to me.

Feel free to U2U me with proof that the claims made in the articles are not true. Who cares how the author tackles them? I see no false statments. I only see truth being stated that some may not like or take issue with. Then read an article that panders to your way of thinking, but don't claim a site is biased simply because you do not favor the articles or their "tone".

[edit on 14-10-2008 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

What? I never said that the articles are not factual. As a matter of fact I said this:

Please note that I’m not taking exception to the claims made in the articles, that would be a huge undertaking and each would deserve its own thread.

The concern of bias is not in the accuracy of the articles its in its lack of an attempt to paint a balanced picture. 12 articles in total on the front page. 6 negative, 6 neutral, none positive.

In fact, I'm not even saying that it is wrong to have a bias or to have a site that displays a bias. Quite often that is perfectly appropriate.

Eric

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


It is not only an atheist site. One of the authors of the articles is actually CATHOLIC.

The link you gave me was to a random site that was so riddled with pop ups I couldn't even read it, my Webroot warned me not to be visiting it. What really happened during WWII? That's something that takes a lot of research and time to know because the "surface" history seems often inaccurate and skewed. As someone who has tried to make sense of the jumbled details of occurrences I doubt your pop up (possibly adware) infested site is going to tell me anything I care to know, but thanks for the "effort".

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
What really happened during WWII? That's something that takes a lot of research and time to know because the "surface" history seems often inaccurate and skewed. As someone who has tried to make sense of the jumbled details of occurrences I doubt your pop up (possibly adware) infested site is going to tell me anything I care to know, but thanks for the "effort".

Maybe this will help a bit. It is pretty narrow in scope, specifically dealing with the Papacy in WWII, so it's not as comprehensive as it could be.

It's an article by a Rabbi and noted historian on the site for Columbia University.

I'll try to dig up some more links to information by credible, fairly objective sources tomorrow (it's getting pretty late).

www.columbia.edu...

Hope that helps.

Eric

I confess I didn't read the middle part of this thread, so if it's been said, sorry to repeat and kudos to whoever said it first.

The dominant religions in the English-speaking world (i.e., the Protestant sects) were founded in direct reaction to the Catholic Church.

The propaganda fed us through 500 years of majority-Protestant rule in most of the English-speaking nations has naturally been anti-Catholic. This basis of deep-seated prejudice provides a fertile ground for allegations of conspiracy, particularly when fed with tidbits from the least savory of Catholic times.

Just one example is the assumption in history books until the last twenty years that there was a natural progression from the mystical, magical, Catholic world of the middle ages through the humanist, rationalist Protestant Industrial Revolution, to some sort of scientific utopia that should be coming into being about now.

It wasn't until people began really questioning the greatness of Science as a belief system that historians began to take a second look at how they had portrayed the Catholic church of the middle ages.

A good source of info on this, particularly as it relates to the English Reformation, is a book by Eamon Duffy called "The Stripping of the Altars". Another, earlier book, seminal in the field, is Keith Thomas' "Religion and the Decline of Magic".

In other words, we demonize the Catholic Church because we share the prejudices of our Protestant past even if we as individuals have renounced our Protestantism as well.

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage


A Biased person takes new from one side of the story. You drew your source of information from a Atheist site. A site known to have a axe to grind. And will show the opposition in the worst light, for validation of their own chosen belief system.

For exp. A True researcher would compare your site about inquisition vrs this article.

oce.catholic.com...

And then compare\contrast and then make up thier mind. But since your minds already made up, this doesn't apply does it.

As to information about Catholics from Catholics, some might want to start here.

oce.catholic.com...

reply to post by VIKINGANT


I going to state from the get go, I'm biased, I'm a protestant, And according to my "catholic" family members, I am destined to purgatory\Hell due to my none support of "Catholicism".

To answer your question, The Catholics think in terms of Temporal and Spiritual law. Since they are Spiritual, they are above the Temporal law. They are a law upon themselves concerning worldly matters. They rule the state, the state does not rule them. Their final authority is the Pope, the Supreme pontiff over all laws, Natural and devine.

Their separation of powers is shown when they allow Child molesters to remain as priests. And they "protect" them from Worldly laws. While absolving them from wrong doing, moving them to another church, or simply
disbarment from being a priest. (Look up "catholicism Canon law".)

Due to their Pope being supreme overlord over all creation, most people are suspicious of them, with good reason. (Of course, I know Catholics who claim the pope is fallible and ignore him on certain things like Birth Control. But if they were "good catholics" they would believe that the Pope is infallible.)

And thats My main beef with Catholicism, It gives Christ like power to the pope. And yes, we can argue semantics over the "peter" has the keys to heaven thing. But for me, Jesus is above all, and end all of everything. And any intermediary in between him\me. Lessens who Jesus is, and was. just my humble biased opinion.

reply to post by msnevil

You drew your source of information from a Atheist site.

I didn't read the rest of your post, I stopped here. It is not an Atheist site, one of the authors is Catholic. As for sources I've read lots of source material on these issues, many not in the realm of the "internet", but through other means. I only posted that site because it detailed factual historic events someone wished for me to validate in a statement I made. If you are going to jump into a conversation you might want to keep up with how it began.

Originally posted by EricD

Maybe this will help a bit. It is pretty narrow in scope, specifically dealing with the Papacy in WWII, so it's not as comprehensive as it could be.

It's an article by a Rabbi and noted historian on the site for Columbia University.

I'll try to dig up some more links to information by credible, fairly objective sources tomorrow (it's getting pretty late).

www.columbia.edu...

Hope that helps.

Eric

I’ve actually seen similar information, it might be the same information but I can’t recall enough of it to verify that. The information I read was distributed by a Columbia club (?) or something of that nature.

[edit on 15-10-2008 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage

i don't know why people are even arguing with you, you profess not only your own ignorance, but also your obstinate determination not to change your opinion despite any facts presented to you.

your actually a good example of why people bash catholics, they don't know, they don't care but damn it if they aren't going to give catholics a good bashing.

context is all, from that point of view most of the deaths on 9/11 were the architects fault, people died because the buildings collapsed, not because planes flew into them.

context is everything, maybe when you grow up a touch you'll realise that. the actions of the catholic church are not in doubt, but the context of those actions change the meaning or signifigance of those acts

Originally posted by msnevil
Due to their Pope being supreme overlord over all creation, most people are suspicious of them, with good reason. (Of course, I know Catholics who claim the pope is fallible and ignore him on certain things like Birth Control. But if they were "good catholics" they would believe that the Pope is infallible.)

Hi,

I appreciate your input and that you made sure to include that it was your opinion and that your opinion (like mine and everyone else's) is subject to bias.

Your beliefs about the Pope are not shared by mainstream Catholicism nor is it the policy of the Church.

The Church teaches that the 'supreme overlord of all creation' is God and only God.

The Pope's ability to speak infallibly is limited to when he speaks ex cathedra (which has been done, I believe, less than 6 times in the history of the Church). If the Pope were to say that green is better than blue, that 5 + 5 is 12, that Almond Joys are better than M&M's or that Australia is a place of myth where Unicorns live Catholics would feel free to disagree with him.

Eric

[edit on 15-10-2008 by EricD]

Stars to both pieman and EricD for bringing up facts, rather than what some others are bringing up in this thread, namely just plain hatred, based on nothing more than bigotry.
Several of us have tried to provide facts, and historical references, but for those with hatred in their hearts, those facts are ignored. Using lame excuses like your botroot tells you not to check the site is really hysterical.
Anyway, I'm not going to waste any more time on this thread, since it is obvious that posters like rapinbatsisaltherage and reconpilot don't want facts. They just want to dwell in their own hatred, and as I've posted on several threads, it is people with hatred in their hearts that are the ultimate cause of war, poverty and starvation. I hope people like you are proud of the harm you do to humanity. You truly are disgusting individuals.

reply to post by pieman

i don't know why people are even arguing with you, you profess not only your own ignorance, but also your obstinate determination not to change your opinion despite any facts presented to you.

And those facts would be what exactly?

context is everything, maybe when you grow up a touch you'll realise that. the actions of the catholic church are not in doubt, but the context of those actions change the meaning or signifigance of those acts

I starred your post because I think you made a good point about context.

However this has been a debated issue for many years, for either of us to claim they are in the right here is silly. The answer to who is right and wrong all depends on the “context” as well. You aren’t going to change my opinion no matter what evidence you present, and no matter what evidence I present I’m not going to change yours because both sides are valid, I’m merely trying to show why I formed my opinion with historical examples, my opinion like many others is far more than what I put out in one post. I disagree with you but I’m not going to tell you to grow up, I think it is rude and narrow minded to assume I don’t know what I’m talking about because of whatever age you believe I am, if I agreed with your opinion you wouldn't make my age an issue.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

Using lame excuses like your botroot tells you not to check the site is really hysterical.

Why don’t you post for me here the factual evidence that trumps the historical references in the link I gave you? Or you can U2U me. Sorry, but I’m not going to be on a site that my Webroot tells me is trying to infect my computer with adware. I’ll be happy to see quotes from the site posted.

As a baptized/confirmed/non-practicing [but certainly well-educated] Roman Catholic, I understand the stated misgivings with the Roman Catholic Church.

But to paint the church with broad, generalizing [re: stereotypical] brush-strokes...especially those who foolishly want to accuse the Catholic laity of crimes committed by the Church's hierarchy, I offer you the example of the late Mother Teresa, may God rest her soul.



Here is an indisputably humane, compassionate, and wholly Christ-like example of a truly modest human being who, as an agent of the Roman Catholic Church, only worked to serve the truly needy in our world, regardless of any of the divisive labels placed on the suffering whom she served right up through the end of her time in this world.

Inquisitions, Crusades, pogroms, institutionally-advocated sexual crimes, and historic levels of very humanistic power plays, to the benefit of only a few, are obvious and noteworthy examples of the great sins of this very political and powerful institution.

However, deriding all who have some connection to the Church screams of narrow-mindedness and bigotry.

We're of a broader mind-set here on ATS.

Contrary to the, ahem, infallibility of Church dogma, this is a human institiution, and like every single other thing of or by man and woman, it is full of both good and bad.

Just trying to elevate the dialogue.

EDIT for spelling and to finish the thought on Mother Teresa, as well as adding a picture of her [at work, as always].

[edit on 10.15.2008 by ItsTheQuestion]

reply to post by ItsTheQuestion

Contrary to the, ahem, infallibility of Church dogma, this is a human institiution, and like every single other thing of or by man and woman, it is full of both good and bad.

I completely agree, which is why I focus my judgment of an organized religion by how it participates in our culture or past cultures. However I have trouble with those who judge the bible (or other works like it), the concept of a God, or concept of religion in general because of the actions of our current popular organized religions.

I don’t condone bashing a religion, I only promote logical criticism. We should not confuse logical criticism with bashing.

Originally posted by EricD
Your beliefs about the Pope are not shared by mainstream Catholicism nor is it the policy of the Church.

This is very true, but at the root of it all and to a certain extent, the crux of this thread is about just this.
Mainstream Catholicism consist largely of obedient drones that go to mass as often as they should and do as they are told. The cathoics that do not fit into the mainstream catogory (like those in this thread) have looked further and found not is all as it seems. Also, some thins may not be the 'official' policy of the church, but some seem to believe (again the crux of this thread) that there is an 'unofficial' policy as well and it is this unofficial policy that the distain and conspiracies are derived from.
Pleae note, that these are not necessarily my views, but observation I have made.

These kinds of exchanges, while very educational, sadden me.

You see, I rely on a different perspective. This puts things in a different context for me.

The Catholic Church is a community which, at its foundation, embraces all mankind as members, with hopes and dreams that are typically human, in nature. In contrast the Papal Institution which claims lordship over the church is no more than a collection of traditionalist theocrats who have so twisted their dogma as to have rendered it into a self-sustaining morass of corruption and complacency which could be said to be its own worst enemy.

Together with the other elite of the world they form an unholy marriage of ambition and lust for control, power, wealth, and domination.

The two are entirely different things.

Most Catholics, as I have come to know them, are not the bible thumping anti-abortion lunatics the media exposes from time to time. Most are kind, gentile, humble people who are as likely to endorse your freedom to believe as you wish, as they would be inclined to fight to defend it.

Those who engage in the social game of tiered social worth are simultaneously the most visible, and least numerous among Catholics. There is a design in that I suspect, but I will not digress from the point.

Which is this:

Any institution, by its very nature within our culture, is a target for abuse and infiltration of anti-social elements. This can be seen again and again throughout history. The Institution of the Church is NO exception.

Therefore I submit that "Catholic church" is not the correct nomenclature to use for the debate in progress. The Church is a collection of people, as good and fine as you or I. The nature and actions of the Institution itself is no longer worthy of defense, in my opinion.

[edit on 15-10-2008 by Maxmars]