Electile Disfunction, page 2
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reply posted on 5-10-2008 @ 01:04 AM by wheresthetruth
Originally posted by Ian McLean
Originally posted by wheresthetruth
Lets see...based on the knowledge of myself and a few very select friends with specific knowledge, I am pretty sure that in 4 years, we could come up with something as simple as:
...
more than enough checks/balances to guarantee no data loss or corruption


Enjoy that certainty. Based on the knowledge of myself and a several select friends with specific knowledge, I guarantee that if you design such a system, that you're confident in, it can be subverted in such a way as to yield, at each possible scope of verifiable consistency, the results you expect to see.

Hypervisor

It's in the hardware, ya know.


Well, there was a bit of sarcasm in there, which is why I said it was "as simple as". There is really nothing that can be simply locked down so well that it cant be hacked. The pentagon and white house are proof of that, with all of the hacks that they have to endure. Not to mention the fact that the hardware hacks that casinos have had to deal with over the decades.

To be honest, technology is really not for every situation. It simplifies a lot, solves many problems, streamlines a lot of processes, but there are limits and times when it should be shelved in exchange for something more primative. I think the electoral process is one of those entities that needs to be primative. I am not suggesting tossing stones, but something less corrupt than having the ability to digitally delete or swap votes is what I am in favor of.


reply posted on 5-10-2008 @ 03:23 PM by Ian McLean
reply to post by schrodingers dog



Well, I do like the idea of the stones -- 'ostracons', wasn't that what they were called? Has a nice ring to it, kinda Thunderdome. I think our politicians need some.

But here's a interesting point, regarding what you mentioned about 'direct democracy' and sound-bite politicing. I think there's a cognative disconnect, there. I often hear people (here and other places) rail against direct democracy; the founders didn't like it, people in mass are stupid, majority voting panders to perception instead of solutions, etc. But, if we're to move away from that, that implies electing politicians based on trust, integrity, and personality, not particular stances on particular issues. Yet, another major complaint from the same people who don't like the idea of direct democracy is that politics now is so very much focused on personality and 'trivialities', rather than the issues the electorate is concerned with. Isn't there a disconnect there? Do we want to be able to trust politicians, or the public -- or both, or neither?

Edit to continue: I think people, unrealistically, want to have their cake and eat it to. They want to elect politicians who will run the country like they want, without them having to worry about it or deal with the issues themselves. But then, being the constantly meddlesome lot that we are, the want every single minuscual action their politicians take to match up with what they personally think should be done, when they actually take the time to form an opinion. A little hypocritical, no?


[edit on 5-10-2008 by Ian McLean]


reply posted on 5-10-2008 @ 03:28 PM by schrodingers dog
Unfortunately SDog seems to have called it right.

America’s sloppy, fraud-prone voting system could turn Election Day into an Election Month of court challenges.

Voter Fraud Expected to Be Rampant

Our nation may be on the brink of repeating the 2000 Florida election debacle, but this time in several states, with allegations of voter fraud, intimidation and flawed voting machines added to the generalized chaos that sent Bush v. Gore to the Supreme Court for overtime.

"If you think of election problems as akin to forest fires, the woods are no drier than they were in 2000, but many more people have matches,” says Doug Chapin, editor of the nonpartisan Electionline.org.

The real battle that could decide this election may be fought by the squadrons of lawyers both sides have hired to prepare Florida-style challenges to the results in any close state. Once again, America’s sloppy, fraud-prone voting system could turn Election Day into an Election Month of court challenges.

Election lawsuits are already piling up. A new federal mandate requires that all voters be allowed to cast a provisional ballot if their names don’t appear on registration lists. Liberal groups are suing to have such ballots counted even if they are cast in precincts where the voter doesn’t live. If the number of provisional ballots exceeds the margin of victory in the Senate race, you can bet lawyers will argue that “every vote must count,” regardless of eligibility. Candidates may have to hope their vote totals are beyond the “margin of litigation.”

source
nypost



reply posted on 5-10-2008 @ 03:57 PM by schrodingers dog
reply to post by Ian McLean



There is a shipstorm brewing with all the problems with these machines.
Unless one of them wins by a landslide, we might not have a president for who knows how long.

We fighting wars under the excuse of "spreading democracy" when ours is fast becoming an embarrassment.


reply posted on 5-10-2008 @ 05:42 PM by schrodingers dog
Originally posted by Ian McLean
reply to
post by schrodingers dog


But here's a interesting point, regarding what you mentioned about 'direct democracy' and sound-bite politicing. I think there's a cognative disconnect, there. I often hear people (here and other places) rail against direct democracy; the founders didn't like it, people in mass are stupid, majority voting panders to perception instead of solutions, etc. But, if we're to move away from that, that implies electing politicians based on trust, integrity, and personality, not particular stances on particular issues. Yet, another major complaint from the same people who don't like the idea of direct democracy is that politics now is so very much focused on personality and 'trivialities', rather than the issues the electorate is concerned with. Isn't there a disconnect there? Do we want to be able to trust politicians, or the public -- or both, or neither?


The disconnect I think happens between peoples' disdain for politicians and their own laziness. A direct democracy is almost impossible these days. There are just too many laws to be written and passed at the local and national level. Most don't take the time to inform themselves now, imagine if they had to do all that work.

Plus people need scapegoats. So politicians work perfectly for that.

I think the present system is exactly as people want it. Relatively functional, doesn't require their full attention, and blame conveniently built in.

Not much help with voting machines though.


reply posted on 5-10-2008 @ 09:23 PM by DancedWithWolves
I would have to believe that Direct Democracy could be no more wrong or have no more flaws than Representative Democracy which ignores the informed feedback of those who are engaged and participative in issues and/or elections in today's political climate. Just as not every person votes in an election, not every person will find an affinity for studying the issues. Those that do spend their time should be allowed more participation than we exercised in the 1700s.

I would also have to believe that in the communication age there would be a way to forge a better path that provides for more citizen input while still maintaining representation. We are no longer separated by distance and our ability to communicate has improved logistically more so than any industry on the planet. There are always ways to improve the systems - some small and some not so small.

Two other very, very big players in the voting machine contractor world are ES&S and Diebold. One feature that I like, although it doesn't solve all the problems, is when the machine prints a voter receipt. At least the individual who cast the ballot can choose to maintain a paper trail. In some precincts one to five swings in the ballot count are observable.

Also, even on basic levels our government is not opening itself to a dialogue with the people. Where are the government internet forums open to citizens on any given legislation? Where is the public discourse on issues fostered by our government allowed, encouraged and embraced even?

Basically you nailed it with your title. There is much work to do. Although sometimes you have to admit, when you see the grief and hatred infect families themselves - and imagine the ingrained hatred that must be present on the national level when we appall and disappoint each other's cultures - it can be amazing that we are as far as we are.

The stones may not be real but, the hanging chads were. Imagine a 20+ year old multi-sheet paper hole punch like they had in schools years ago. Remember how when you would punch holes in the sheets and there would be those dangly things hanging off. Hanging chads in Florida were real. When those ballots were fed through the reader - the machine the ballot rested on pushed those dangly chads back up in the hole so the machine couldn't read the vote. More importantly, there were more than enough dangly chads that I will always believe that Al Gore would have won in 2000 if the Supreme Court had not ordered us to stop counting the votes in Miami Dade County. The votes were there.

Thanks again for this thread and the many contributors....it's been an interesting read.



Peace.


reply posted on 7-10-2008 @ 09:43 AM by theodorej
Originally posted by TheRooster
reply to
post by schrodingers dog



SD, I love the title. I say bring back the dimpled and hanging chads. OR Perhaps we could cast our votes by throwing a rock at the candidate of your choice?


Greetings......funny you mentioned the dimples and hanging chads....This incident was a practice run for the ultimate robbery of an election....
Think about this possible scenerio....The manufacturer of the machines used in FLA. were designed to accomodate 1 data card and the stylus used penetrated that card handly.....Now....consider this....A republican registered voter shows up at the pole...one data card is inserted....next..a democratic registered voter showed up...3 data cards are inserted....result..card one OK..card 2...chad...card 3 dimple...
Of course this could not be proven,however it was funny that out of the entire state of FLA...the Gore campaign chose to recount only select precints in south FLA.... Just a theory with no basis in fact however possible...



reply posted on 24-10-2008 @ 08:10 PM by argentus
reply to post by schrodingers dog



Jumbo kudos on the title SD; by JOVE you've done it again!!!

Okay, while the stoning idea was deliciously tempting, I fear that shortly after the opening of the polls, most of the nation would have nothing but a spot to throw at. I completely agree. No matter WHO wins, there is going to be foul called. This mess isn't going to be over for a while.

I think the only equitable and fair way to decide this election is a cage match. No, don't laugh.... sure, Senator Obama is much younger and more agile and possibly stronger, less injuries, etc. ....... but let's not underestimate the power of guile and experience.

Think of it..... it would be a pay-per-view event, a small amount and those that don't have the wherewithall to afford cable TV would pay their dues at a central civic center, where the event would be broadcast. These funds would go towards the ever-growing deficit, as well as entertaining the hell out of the entire nation. It could be hybridized with wrestling, by having the VPs as the tag team. I'm pretty certain Palin would whip Biden..... Oh, what a night!
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