Obama will actually vote to "help" Hawaii split from the US.

Originally posted by bknapple32
They were taken over by the US gov... Fine, thats how the world works. But the government formally apologized and this is anothe step.

It's not that cut and dried.

The monarchy was overthrown by a group, some of which were U.S. citizens as well as subjects of the Queen. It was a coup d’état. While members of the coup were sympathetic to and were generally in favor annexation by the United States, the US took no active role in the actual takeover. On the other hand, the US did nothing to defend the Queen. U.S. troops landed after the coup in order to "maintain peace". The troops were deployed by U.S. Minister John Stevens who may have been a conspirator.

There is no indication that the U.S. government was directly involved with, or had knowledge of the coup until after the fact. But again, the U.S. did nothing to defend the Hawaiian Kingdom with which there was a treaty.

[edit on 6-9-2008 by Phage]

Originally posted by LiquidMirage

So let me ask you, since you are a liberal democrat. Why is it important to preserve the native traditions of Hawaii and that way of life when Liberals don't want to preserve traditions and traditional way of life here on the mainland.

You mean the Native American people's way of life? Or the immigrants?

Last time I checked, there was no single immigrant way of life, but many, many different "ways of life" that came from many countries.

Originally posted by LiquidMirage
Liberals have been trying to destroy traditions such as the traditional meaning of family values, the sacred institution of marriage between a man and a woman, the traditional right to bare arms, etc, etc, etc. Please address this for me because I really want to know.

I actually DO support the right to bear arms. Completely and unequivocally even though I am a "liberal." I also completely support your freedom to practice religion in the way that you see fit, openly, without prejudice. I also, however, support everyone ELSES right to practice their religion without prejudice, as long as their religious practices do not involve harming others. (If they want to flail themselves, flail away IMHO.)

I do not think the government should order the Catholic church (or any church) to perform religious marriage ceremonies against their will, but I DO support the idea of a recognition of partnerships between whomever (legally consenting adults) want to be bonded in such a way by the government and whatever religious group agrees to perform the ceremonies.

Marriage has meant a lot of things, to a lot of cultures. There is no ONE traditional way that everyone agrees marriage should be, and the tradition in America is for "freedom of religion," not the imposition of ONE religion and THEIR values on ALL the people no matter what their own tradition dictates.

Originally posted by LiquidMirage
Now, let it be known that I am not attacking you or talking down to you in anyway. I just want you to explain to me why the left values their (Hawaiians) traditions but attack mine every chance they get.

I can only speak for myself, but the only problem I have with the group that touts "traditional family values" in general is that they want their traditions imposed upon me. I dont mind at all that you be allowed to keep your traditions. Please do so. Have the family you want, the marriage you want, and carry the guns you want. I just expect that you should understand that YOUR way isnt the only way, or even the objectively "right" way. It is just right for you. I can be happy for you, and be glad you have the freedom to live the way you want to, why cant you be happy that not only do you have that freedom, but others who differ from you in culture have the freedom to honor their religious and cultural beliefs as well?

The issue for me about Hawai'i being granted some measure of Sovereignty is one of justice. As others have said, a group of business men, European and American, with the help and support of the US government and military, overthrew a monarchy that was not hostile to it. Essentially an unprovoked, (other than by greed and perhaps racism and sexism) attack on a sovereign nation. It was wrong, and it cost the native people a LOT in terms of their standard of living and opportunities. Ditto for the Native Americans. True, it would be impossible to undo what has been done, at this point, but that doesnt mean some compromise, some measure of sovereignty cannot be restored, much like it has been on the "reservations" here in the mainland US.

Like Hawai'igurl says, a nation within a nation. We already have that on the mainland. Many nations within a nation. So, whats the big deal about Hawai'i having the same arrangement?

Originally posted by Phage

There is no indication that the U.S. government was directly involved with, or had knowledge of the coup until after the fact. But again, the U.S. did nothing to defend the Hawaiian Kingdom with which there was a treaty.

I guess that depends on how finely you split the hairs on who is a member of the US government and whether or not the military acts as a representative of that government.


en.wikipedia.org...

The administration of Grover Cleveland commissioned the Blount Report, and based on its findings, concluded that the overthrow of Liliʻuokalani was illegal, and that U.S. Minister Stevens and American military troops had acted inappropriately in support of those who carried out the overthrow.

Seems to me there is plenty of indication that the US government and military was involved. Was it an order from the President? Well, no. But he is not the only member of the US government. And, the US government did not take immediate action to undo the actions of these "rogue" factions, (if that is what they were) which is, in effect, sanctioning the action after the fact.

to add to the person whining about liberals, it seems rightists and neocons always want to blame everything on the "liberals" but it seems to me that its mostly the strong government right, and the corporatists who want to supress our right to own weapons.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
And, the US government did not take immediate action to undo the actions of these "rogue" factions, (if that is what they were)

Isn't that what I said?
2x?

[edit on 7-9-2008 by Phage]

reply to post by hawaiigurl


Hey I am indifferent to this issue. I haven't read up on it, so I don't have a take. And honestly I don't really understand what 'a Nation within a Nation' would actually entail in a modern sense.. How about a 'nation within a nation within a nation', not trying to sound absurd, just wondering when a distinction would be made :p

If it helps the well-being of the people of Hawaii then I would support this, and hope a President would too.

Clearly the OP was trying to put Obama in a bad light with this thread. Quite funny that other members showed Mcain voted for it too Not saying it should be good or bad light, but it should shine on both canidates.

If it helps the well-being of the people of Hawaii then I would support this, and hope a President would too.

If it means safe haven from the Greys, i'd be all for it too, but they're in all 57 states.

Lucid, your Obama bashing gets old

Originally posted by bknapple32
reply to post by Jay-in-AR

 

So we have decided that native Hawaiians are junkies based on DOG??? Wow, I wonder what a foreigner does when they watch COPS.

As a foreigner I can say - Yes, I look at a show like COPS and feel so sad that this is what the noble American dream has degerated into.

I also look at the Ruling US Regime and feel saddened that this is what has happened to a nation that was once a beacon of freedom and light to the entire world.

America had the potential to be the greatest nation in the world, and for a while, it was. Unfortunately Ron Paul was your last chance to reclaim your faded glory, but thanks to the fact that 90% of the western population these days are braindead, McDonalds scoffing, prescription medicine addicted, propaganda fueled morons who believe everything that comes out of Hannity’s mouth on FOX news, the mainstream media made him out to be a crackpot so that is how he is viewed. (Note - I’m not attacking Americans, I include my own country in that definition of Westerners as well, except in Australia, we’re addicted to beer, barbeques and sports entertainment.)

When asked about the system of Government he had helped create, Benjamin Franklin stated "A republic, if you can keep it." Freedom requires constant vigilance, and every single one of us is equally guilty for having lost sight of the dream.

When I think back to the way the world was even 10 years ago, it makes me lose whatever remaining hope I had for the future of humanity that we have allowed things to collapse this far. The decline of Modern Western Civilisation echoes the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, this happened because the populace became over-stimulated with inundated senses that nobody even tried to do anything until the barbarians were already at the gates. The same thing happens now, nobody does anything because everyone is so distracted and selfish that we have allowed Fascism to once again take hold. Modern America could be compared to 1930’s Germany, although this would probably come as no surprise to any student of history who understands that your current presidents grandfather was actually banned from wall street trading for secretly funding the Nazi Party. A leopard can’t change its spots, and although a fascist may hide behind the facade of freedom, they are still a fascist.

At this point in time, I have almost no hope for a future that I will enjoy. All I can envision is Orwells nightmare, it’s just that 1984 arrived a little bit later than expected.

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." Indeed, I’m sure that I’m red flagged in the system for expressing my point of view. Most likely you are too, for having read it.

"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."

Herzlich willkommen in die Zukunft, dass Sie Damen und Herren verdienen. Ihre Papiere bitte?

I am currently living in Hawaii, the descrimination is reversed here. Us Halies as we are called are looked down upon by the locals. The state supports this discrimination in almost everything. Those who don't stay in Hawaii but just visit dont know hardly anything about the situation here. That being said, I think the Hawaiian culture is great and most of the people are prideful and generous and hard working so generally like everywhere else there are always bad apples no matter where you are. As far as politics, it wouldnt suprise me a guy whos half siblings live in countries we are in conflict or eventually will be in conflict with supports succession really doesnt surprise me. I just hope he is more honerable then the perception he broadcasts in his substanceless oritorys.

......then the U.S. Government in there great wisdom, established a large plot of land for the purpose of a Hawaiian reservation........in the Florida Keys.

Aloha, baby

reply to post by Dronetek


looks like obama doesn't agree with pres. abraham lincoln's vision of keeping america and it's people united----all that blood shed for nothing?---------strange i thought of all president's that obama would look up to pres. lincoln's ideals and concern for freedom of those once enslaved.

Thats a funny thing to say as Lincoln suspended the constitution during his time in office. Not to mention that in his speaches numerous times her repeated his belief that White people should always remain superior to black people.

reply to post by pexx421


thanks for telling me that i was in error to think that pres. abraham lincoln was mistaken in his efforts to keep the united part of the usa.
i wonder how it would have turned out if he had done nothing?

cant say, but it surely couldnt be worse than it is today. Most likely the rest of the world would have been saved from 200 years of american oppression meddling, and installing and backing dictators around the world. 2 million less vietnamese might have died, 500000 philipinos would have survived, hawaii may have remained a strong and vibrant culture, cuba may have been a functional government. Who knows?

Originally posted by pexx421
cant say, but it surely couldnt be worse than it is today. Most likely the rest of the world would have been saved from 200 years of american oppression meddling, and installing and backing dictators around the world. 2 million less vietnamese might have died, 500000 philipinos would have survived, hawaii may have remained a strong and vibrant culture, cuba may have been a functional government. Who knows?

Couldn't be worse? Hawaii, as an extremely valuable and more or less helpless mid-pacific "asset", wouldn't have been absorbed by other interests? The Philippines? Seems the problems there (as well as Cuba) are rooted in Spanish imperialism.

The US is not innocent by any means but at the time imperialism was rampant in the world. All of the world powers of the time were more concerned with their own interests than anything else.

Originally posted by Jay-in-AR
Are you familiar with the story of the native Hawaiians?
Have you ever lived in Hawaii?

Hawaii is so far removed from the United States mainland in all aspects it isn't even worth mentioning. The only thing that tells me that Hawaii is even a state to begin with is the fact that the US has military bases all over the place out there.

How is it removed? I'm not attacking here, just very curious. The only references I have to Hawaii, since I'm too poor to ever go there, is Dog the Bounty Hunter and Hawaii 5-O!

Also, how would Hawaii benefit from succeeding?

Thanks! Great Topic!

Originally posted by Alienmojo

How is it removed? I'm not attacking here, just very curious. The only references I have to Hawaii, since I'm too poor to ever go there, is Dog the Bounty Hunter and Hawaii 5-O!

Well, thats actually a very good example you gave. You DONT hear much about Hawai'i on the news in the mainland. You dont learn about the overthrow in history class, nor how King Kamehameha united the islands, or anything much really. To be fair, Hawai'i sort of ignores the mainland in a lot of ways as well. (Although it cant to as large a degree) It is isolated both geographically and culturally in many ways. In most mainland peoples minds it is just this idealized paradise in the middle of the ocean, while to most local people, (it isnt accurate to call them all Hawai'ians because the ethnic Hawai'ians are a very small group, most "locals" are not ethnically Hawai'ian) it is just home, with the same issues and problems any place has in the modern world.

Originally posted by Alienmojo
Also, how would Hawaii benefit from succeeding?

First off, the OP was being a bit inflammatory bringing up the whole secession issue. Currently what is being asked for is sovereignty similar to what the Native Americans have in the mainland. None of them have seceded yet.


That said, and argument could still be made that they WOULD be better off if they seceded. But, that is a difficult question to answer briefly. I would just say "look at Ireland." Lots of people predicted Ireland's fall into ruin after leaving the UK, however, after some initial struggle, they are doing just fine. The main benefit is the right to rule yourself, instead of having a "outsider" rule you, and in the case of Ireland, an outsider that historically thought pretty little of you. Succeed or fail, you had the opportunity to make your own decisions, take charge of your own destiny. When there has been a hostile takeover, as in Hawai'i there is a sense of justice finally being served.

If someone took over your home, moved in, and sort of pushed you to the attic, and just made themself at home, wouldnt you want to have your home back no matter how many years ago it was taken? Even if the new occupants made sure you didnt starve, and didnt throw you out, wouldnt you rather have the say in your own home? Is it really hard to understand that some people just want to be masters of their own destiny?


[edit on 7-9-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

reply to post by Dronetek


The same seccessionary ideas have taken place with Alaska and the Florida Keys (the Conch Republic).

All 3 states (keys being part of Florida of course) have been encouraged to do this not only for geographical reasons (there all geographically separated from the US mainland), but for economical and political reasons.

The main 'reason' for this is that the US Federal govt. has become much too large and is ordering from the top down instead of the bottome up as the US Constitution had conceived.

States Rights have been obliterated over the years with Patriot act being the lates threat.
I believe both current candidates plan to appeal the Patriot act since the populace has been so vocal against it.

I see the talk of secession as a ploy to gain more sovereignty as a state of which would be a very healthy trend if accomplished.

See Jeffersonian democracy for more of what the framers of the Constitution had in mind or rather refer to the Constitution itself for more.

There have been multiple breaches of the Constitution to date (Supreme law of the land) including the creation of the Federal Reserve which is 'private' consortium of international banksters defrauding Americans of their sovereignty and the permittance of dual Israeli/American citizens (of whom have pledged loyalty to Israel FIRST) to hold high offices within the DoD, Dept. of Homeland Security, CIA, FBI, NSA.

AIPAC is by far the most powerful and influential lobbying group as well as by FAR the most damaging to the American sovereignty and the US Constitution.

Way too much to say on this topic though gooooogle away at the terms above and you will be shocked to discovery that what I say is actually true.
AIPAC is and has always been protected....by last resort....by the Mossad (Israeli secret service). Mention the word Mossad to a US govt. official and you will see terror run across there face assuming they've been in office for at least a year.

i wouldnt say cubas main problem was spanish imperialism. It was ONE of their problems yes, but as they have managed to fight US off, im sure they would have fought the spanish off as well. What originally happened was cuba asked for american aid in fighting off the spanish and declaring independence. So, we went in, helped kick out spain, then tried to take over. The cubans then fought us off all the way to guantanamo which we have kept. They have survived all our attempts at assasination, fomenting uprisings, poisoning their crops and giving viruses to their cattle, all done by this little upstart country against the "greatest power in the modern world". And now they train more doctors than any other country, and have a large medical aid program with venezuela that sends medical workers and aid all over the world. Pretty impressive. Makes you wonder how they might have turned out had we supported them from the start rather than attempting to annex. I also wonder how vietnam may have turned out had we supported their original grasp for independence, rather than going in and murdering 2 million of em and destroying their country utterly.

Sometimes I wish california would split from the US