The Evidence For Jesus' Existence Is Nothing But Hearsay

Hiya,

Originally posted by Gorman91
Also, why would anyone write DURING Jesus' time? He was nothing more than another dead rebel then.

Jesus was a "dead rebel" DURING his life time?

Originally posted by Gorman91
Would you expect a full scholarly letter about a random death penalty victim today? No. But if a religion about him pooped up, then you would.

If this person had really existed and done some of the things claimed, he WOULD have been written about.


Iasion

Hiya,

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Well another event that we don't have any "eyewitness accounts," for but is still considered to have happened by historians, is the "Great Flood."

Rubbish.
Theere was never any "Great Flood".

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Notice I didn't say the biblical flood as although there is a biblical account of this (i.e. Noah's Ark), it was also mentioned in Sumerian texts and other historical documents, and even on pottery.

The Sumerian flood MYTH was copied to make the Bible flood myth. There are no "historical documents, and even on pottery" which support this as an actual event.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Now there was never an eyewitness account, but historians still consider it to have happened,

No they don't.
Name one modern mainstream scholar who does.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Also while it seems to be true that there is heresay, if it didn't happen, what would have caused everyone to begin citing the person saying it happened?

If Xenu's explosion didn't happen, what would have caused everyone to begin citing the person saying it happened?

Hmm?


Iasion

So does that mean that Jesus is just a theory? Like the Natural Selection of Species-type theory?

Originally posted by theyareoutthere
There were writings about Jmmanuel (Jesus) during Jmmanuel's lifetime by the man who is falsely accused of betraying him. It is known as Talmud Jmmanuel, which was found in 1964 I believe. This book contains the true teachings about the man known as Jesus (who is part Extraterrestrial by the way), his real father is not Creation but is Gabriel (not an angel), an extraterrestrial. Google Talmud Jmmanuel.

More nonsense.
The Talmud Jmmanuel is bizarre fiction from a UFO nut.
No scholar thinks it is real.


Iasion

Hiya,

Originally posted by hexvenus
Out of curiousity have you ever read "The Christ Conspiracy" by Acharya S? You can read an excerpt HERE. It's an interesting book that looks into Christianity being just another incarnation of ancient Sun Worship.

Beware.
Acharya S's scholarship is very poor.
Her books are considered rubbish by scholars.


Iasion

Hi,

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Hey I found those supposed letters from Harod and Pilate
...
www.pseudepigrapha.com...

Mate -
don't you know what pseudepigrapha means?

False writings.
That is - forgeries.

These books are know forgeries.


Iasion

Hi,

Originally posted by Malankhkare
reply to post by AlexG141989

 

There are many websites and books which reveal the non-existence of Jesus. There are also many which show where the story came from.

You mean there are many crackpots which make completely DIFFERENT claims about where the story came from.

Originally posted by Malankhkare
When you examine Egyptian records from temples and papyrii dating back to the 14th century BCE then the origin of the Christian Story can be clearly seen.

Scholars do not agree.
Will you please quote some of these "records from temples and papyrii" in which "the origin of the Christian Story can be clearly seen".

Originally posted by Malankhkare
IOSA was an Egyptian Spirit God and the name means 'Ever Coming Son' (of God). It is still spelled exactly the same as it was in Ancient Egypt, in the Gaelic Gospel of Mark (on the net). It is virtually the same story. However the researcher should start with identifying King Solomon. Go to home.austarnet.com.au... and just examine the evidence. Check it for yourself. Check the bible measurements of the Hall of Columns and compare them with the measurements found in the ruins at Malqata, Luxor, Egypt. Check the matching figures - bible to historical facts about Egypt. There is no doubt at all that Solomon was the Pharaoh SalimAmen III aka YmnHtp III. His son was the fifth King David better known today as King Tut. Check this out too and you will be astonished.

I have checked.
I am astonished.
Astonished that you believe this nonsense.

If YOU believe this, how about YOU present some of the evidence here please?

Originally posted by Malankhkare
So where did the Gospel Jesus come from? The main story is plagiarised from Egypt. This was then mixed up with mainly two historical figures - Antigonus a King of the Jews who was crucified about a century before the bible story, and Apollonius. You can study these facts in 'Tears In Heaven' by Ian Ross Vayro published by Joshua Books late last year.

Facts?
You mean CLAIMS.
Have these claims been tested by peer-review?
Or is it merely another popular work aimed at the un-informed masses?

Originally posted by Malankhkare
Gerald Massey was the first to blow the whistle in 1907 in his book "Ancient Egypt Light of the World" - can be read on the net.

It's a fascinating work indeed.
But very poor scholarship.
Many of his claims do not stand up to scrutiny.
Massey is where Acharya S gets much of her nonsense from.

Originally posted by Malankhkare
Ahmed Osman's "Out of Egypt - the roots of Christianity Revealed" is another good starter - though I have added to the evidence he has found that Solomon was Ymnhtp III and Joseph was Yuya.

It appears you have read every popular crackpot book.
And completely ignored mainstream scholarship.

Originally posted by Malankhkare
In Bible Origins in Egypt - website as above - just look at the identitites of Jacob and Joshua. Jacob is spelled the same as in the cartouche of this Egyptian King, and Joshua is little altered from the original name - the Pharaoh Djoser.

So?
Many names are similar to others.

Originally posted by Malankhkare
Christ is an Egyptian word meaning 'Buried'.

Really?
Please show some evidence.


Iasion

Originally posted by ibgrimme
So does that mean that Jesus is just a theory? Like the Natural Selection of Species-type theory?

No.
Jesus is a MYTH or legend or fiction.
Not a "theory".


Sadly, it appears you have the typical creationist's ignorance about the word "theory".


THEORY has 2 meanings

It is all too common for people to confuse the two meanings of the word "theory".

In popular terms, "theory" means a guess, or speculation. Thus the common phrase "just a theory" meaning "just speculation".

But,
in scientific terms, there is another, different, meaning to the word "theory" - it means an EXPLANATION.


Theories EXPLAIN facts

Theories explain the facts we observe :

Gravity is a fact, we observe its effects.
Gravitational Theory describes how gravity works.

Electricity is a fact, we use it everyday.
Electromagnetic Theory explains the details of how it operates.

Germs are a fact.
Germ Theory explains how they cause disease.

Evolution is a fact, it is observed.
The Theory of Evolution explains how it works.



the ToE is an EXPLANATION, NOT speculation

The Theory of Evolution is NOT "speculation about evolution" - that is NOT what the phrase means at all.

Rather -
the Theory of Evolution is the EXPLANATION for how evolution works, it models the behaviour of the FACTS of evolution, and allows predictions to be made.

Just as Electromagnetic Theory is the explanation or model of how electricity works.
Would one say "electricity is just a theory" ?
Of course not.

And Gravitational Theory is the explanation or model of how gravity works.
Would one say "gravity is just a theory" ?
Of course not.

And Germ Theory is the explanation or model of how germs cause disease.
Would one say "germs are just a theory" ?
Of course not.


Yet
some people say
"evolution is (just) a theory"

as if it means
"evolution is merely untested speculation" (false)

when it really only means
"evolution is an explanation, or model" (true)


Claiming "evolution is just a theory" indicates lack of understanding of the word, and how science operates, and that the ToE is an explanation for observed facts.



EVOLUTION = FACT & THEORY


Evolution is a FACT.
We observe evolution.
And,
the Theory of Evolution is the EXPLANATION, or model, for the observed facts of evolution.



Iasion

As someone who absolutely believes that a man named Jesus who is referred to as The Christ did live and was and is known as the son of God - I have to say that there is absolutely no tangible proof that he ever lived.

That is why it is called the Christian FAITH.

If there was evidence it would not be faith and everyone would believe.

But then again, check back in 1,975 years and see if there is any tangible proof that you ever lived.

yes, there is no direct evidence for Jesus existance.

i sincerely hope there will come a time when it doesn't matter. jesus never said "believe in me and you will be saved" and so i can't believe it would have mattered to him that thousands of years later people were questioning his existance.

someone created a great way to live and be happy, guidelines for life. boiled down to its purest form (see jefferson's bible as a reference) it has nothing to do with his death, afterlife or even, really, his life.

whether the person lived and died a martyr's death and was named jesus or ther person lived to an old age as a scholar/writer creating "scripture" a hundred years after the fact, doesn't matter. it doesn't change the fundamental truth of his teachings and the happiness they can bring to you if you live them which has nothing to do with god or prayer.

someone created these guidelines. maybe he caught on to the fact that a mundane life wouldn't lead well to hysterical followers and widespread belief.

some day, i hope, the reliance on a supernatural existance of jesus in order to believe what he taught will be washed away. this is the only true second coming that will ever happen.

reply to post by Iasion


Yeah so I have heard .
At least according to SOME ..

I thought it was this thread I had mentioned it in and I couldnt find them so I just found them and thought I would share it .

By the way I am a dudette lol not a dude

So is every single book or text or letter (If Jesus is mentioned in them) in the world a forgery ?

Sure seems like everything that gets brought up is a supposed forgery
Including the bible....

Sounds alot like a Conspiricy dont ya think ?


Just face it most of you will not believe unless Jesus himself comes down from heaven and grabs you by the collar .And even then you will come up with something I am sure to get out of believing it ..
Actually most of you will more than likely just try and kill him just like the Romans and Jews did ..


[edit on 10-9-2008 by Simplynoone]

[Anyone believing that the Bible was inspired or written by God needs to read, "Misquoting Jesus." Then you'll have the origin of the Bible we have today. Before you believe, do the research and check what historians say, not what your local preacher tells you to believe.

The vast majority of the people that have lived in this world have left no record, no house, no books, nothing. Nevertheless, they have indeed existed.

While true that the primary source for data on Jesus is the Bible, it is not the only record. But, two of the Gosphels were written by men that walked with Jesus, ate with him and knew him well. Matthew and John were both original apostles, and they write about their experience with Jesus.

There are a very few references to Jesus in archeological records, dating from the first century.

Now, the fact that there is no execution record means nothing, because there are very few extant records of executions in Palestine (as the Romans called it). They rarely bothered to document their prisoners in that "province".

But the bottom line is, that no, we can not prove that Jesus existed with any form of "outside" record. But, the fact that 200 years later, millions upon millions of people believe in him goes a long way.

But yes, ultimately it does indeed boil down to faith.

I know for you "intellectual types" faith is a terrible word. You can't and won't believe in anything you can't see, taste, feel, etc. That's your loss, not mine.

forgive my i haven't read the first post but what about the tumber jesus was on and the jews in ww2 by the nazis where did get the idea what about the spear used to hurt him. what about the bible lies right jesus was a student of john the baspest along with the propt mommuad sorry about the misspelling what about the dead sea scools watch the histry channel more often they come with alot ideas and to me proof the jesus was a man that lived around 2000 yrs ago this person is trying to stop christan from beliveing to promote evil among men god and jesus was about love and understanding. sorry if this has been said before

truthman has spoken

Also, why would anyone write DURING Jesus' time? He was nothing more than another dead rebel then. Would you expect a full scholarly letter about a random death penalty victim today? No. But if a religion about him pooped up, then you would.

just another dead rebel that can heal the sick, walk on water, turn water into wine??? Riiiight.... If this Jesus person really existed, and could really do the things described in the bible, there should be tons of writings about him, that date back to the time when he was alive. It sounds like you're the one denying the evidence against Jesus.

Why do Christians feel "It's all about faith" is a valid argument to use for Christianity, but not for Paganism, or Buddhism or Taoism?? Why are Christians allowed to base their religious choices on "faith" but everyone else MUST provide proof to support their own beliefs??

That's a very good question, I'd like to see what the christian response to this question is...

So does that mean that Jesus is just a theory? Like the Natural Selection of Species-type theory?

No, evolution actually has mountains of convincing evidence...

The vast majority of the people that have lived in this world have left no record, no house, no books, nothing. Nevertheless, they have indeed existed.

But the vast majority of people on this planet weren't said to be able to do magic tricks, or be the offspring of God, and born to a virgin mother...

But, the fact that 200 years later, millions upon millions of people believe in him goes a long way.

Ok, but the fact that the majority of those millions upon millions of people have probably not bothered to read the bible. The fact that the majority of those millions upon millions believe only because they were brought up to believe in Jesus goes a long, longer way...

reply to post by hexvenus


Thanks for that link. The similarities between Horus the KRST and Jesus the Christ are remarkable. There's no way it's a coincidence. It's essentially a rehash of the same story. I don't know what a Christian could say about that. I don't see how anyone could argue against it.

The likeliest scenario (imo) seems to be that the Romans fabricated this story as a rehash of other gods and also added some events in the story which mimick battles they had won against the Jews (www.caesarsmessiah.com... ). As you can see from that link, the Romans were very clever about this. I suspect that a further part of the joke was to have the Jews worship a rehash of other gods, when one of their laws stipulates that they are to serve no other gods.
There are simply too many coincidences in the story of Jesus to call it chance. Plus the fact that there is no substancial evidence that he did exist.
Wow. I don't know how anyone could argue in favor of Jesus' existence.

how did we get here from fish how did the fish get here from carbon atoms how did they get here from the big bang how did it happen something is out there to help it happen. more stars are being shown EVERYDAY how did they get there. let guess you put them there do belive in souls where do they go i belive jesus died for people like you and when god comes back i see in church asking for forgivness i'll be in the carpool lane with the faith belivers GOD LOVES EVERYBODY INCULDING YOU

truthman has spoken

Hiya,

Originally posted by OldMedic
But, two of the Gosphels were written by men that walked with Jesus, ate with him and knew him well. Matthew and John were both original apostles, and they write about their experience with Jesus.

False.
The consensus of modern NT scholarship is that these books were NOT written by anyone who met Jesus.

Indeed, scholars largely agree that NOT ONE SINGLE book in the NT was written by anyone who ever actually met the alleged "Jesus".

Originally posted by OldMedic
There are a very few references to Jesus in archeological records, dating from the first century.

No there are not.
Which is no doubt why you failed to cite any.

Originally posted by OldMedic
Now, the fact that there is no execution record means nothing, because there are very few extant records of executions in Palestine (as the Romans called it). They rarely bothered to document their prisoners in that "province".

Indeed it means nothing.
But what means a lot is the fact that there is NO reference, record, evidence, quote etc. or Jesus at all.
Nothing.
If Jesus then existed Philo would have mentioned him.
Probably Justus of Tiberias too.

Originally posted by OldMedic
But the bottom line is, that no, we can not prove that Jesus existed with any form of "outside" record.

Then why did you say
"There are a very few references to Jesus in archeological records"
if you now agree there is none?

Originally posted by OldMedic
But, the fact that 200 years later, millions upon millions of people believe in him goes a long way.

Does the fact that Scientology is growing so fast mean it is true?


Iasion

Greetings,

Originally posted by Simplynoone
So is every single book or text or letter (If Jesus is mentioned in them) in the world a forgery ?

No.
Just the vast majority of them.
Strictly speaking, the word "forgery" is wrong, because writing books in the name of OTHERS was common back then. The intent was NOT the same as modern forgers.

Here is a quick list of false-writings (pseudographs or "forgeries"):

* The Pastorals
* 2nd Thess.
* 1&2 Peter
* 1,2,3 John
* Jude
* James

Outside the bible you will find many such pseudographs, most of which can be found on that site linked above. For instance, there are probably a dozen or so Gospels apart from the NT 4. Along with false letters from Pilate, Paul&Seneca .. all sorts of wiritings that are NOT by the name they bear.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Sounds alot like a Conspiricy dont ya think ?

No.
There was no conspiracy at all.
Just many believers writing different books.


Iasion