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"As long as there are men in the world there will be Wars"

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posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 01:09 AM
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reply to post by candyfloss
 



I mentioned this post and line of thinking to one of the guys at work and they added two more women to the line of female leaders involved in wars and sending men off to fight.

The names are Indira Gandhi of India....and Golda Meir of Israel.

With Indira Gandhi it was the Pakistan Kashmir fighting which seems to be an ongoing quarrel going back a long ways. Also if I remember the history ..India became a nuclear power under her administration. With Gold Meir it was the consant struggle with the Arabs...which continues unto this day.

Nonetheless these are two more women who had such responsiblitys and made the decisions to send the soldiers off when needed.

Yes..I know of the history of the time of Boudicca of which you speak. The Romans had such a difficult time in England that they finally retreated behind Hadrians Wall.

For some reason I never heard that about William Wallace. Are you sure you are not talking about an Englishman named Oliver Cromwell? Much of the same is said about him. In some circles Oliver Cromwell is liked and in some hated unto this very day.

LOL LOL LOL,

I have to chuckle here at IllusionsareGrander and his post.


Some women are every bit as aggressive about physically fighting as men are.

Some men dont like to mix it up at all.

One thing I have noticed, is that while more men than women on average are likely to get into fights, and do the actual fighting, there is a fair percentage of women who like to stir up a fight, and let someone else do the dirty work.


I agree..especially today. I have never seen such a tendency of females to mix it up..some of them with men.

As to this Candyfloss..


I think really it's hard to say what women would fight over in an all woman world.At least men would be out of the picture(which is what women fight about most in my experience)I think it's hard to percieve what values women would have if they did'nt have to compete over men ie;without the social conditions we have now.Up until recently I think it would be safe to say that women could only access power and resources through men via sexual relationships or family connections but that's changed somewhat now.


In an all woman world??? Wow!!! Perhapsed I should state again this for which I have posted at different times and on different boards..both ATS and BTS.
The assumption is often made and greatly in error..that women are not competitive. I disagree totally in this.
Women are every bit competitive as men ...often in different thinking..[that wiring buisness) but competitive nontheless.

What I have stated before on previous posts concerning this is a company party to which I accompanied the woman I was seeing at the time. I am not a big socialite and took my leave to go out and sit in the lobby outside the ball room where the party was taking place. I quickly discerned that this was a good place to observe wildlife in it's natural habitat...unfiltered, raw!! What I saw was a group of women watching the other women come to the compay party. They quickly scanned the women as to what they were wearing ...how they conducted themselves...etc etc...all of this in a very quick glance..all of them in this group. THe look in thier eyes was very wild...feral as they sized up these new attendees.
Now mind you now...some of these women were highly educated...women of letters and degrees...yet they were not above this kind of conduct.

I called it ..Wild..feral...the looks in thier eyes. It was another woman on these threads..Whitewave ..who was to clarify it for me...the look was pure meaness...born of being competitive. A natural instinct which even the trappings of civilization/education could not tame or conceal.

I quickly realized that I was watching something very special and often hidden/concealed from ordinary view. Real wildlife ..in its natural habitat. I had one of the best seats in the house.

As to an all women world...

How many women do you know who are trained to keep the airconditioners going ..the heaters..the automobiles..busses, Trams, electricity, and all the other trappings of civilization?? How many women do you know with both the training and willingness to take RISKS..to maintain this civilization or civilized standards?? An all women world is a nice fantasy...but not very real.

I dont know if you are aware of this history as it is pretty much covered up in most books ..but in Soviet Russia in the early days they gave women full equality with the proviso that they had no such obligation to sleep with their men if they felt it unecessary. The women began to attempt to use this as undue leverage...a tool. The men began leaving thier familys in droves. THe government had to reverse this policy or face disaster. You can find this history in a book by this title.

Sex and Power in History by Amaury De Riencourt.

More food for thought and consideration.

Thanks,
Orangetom




posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 01:59 AM
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Yeah,Orangetom I thought about Golda Mieyer and Indrai Ghandi but what I said about William Wallace was'nt me stating facts-just illustrating the point that history does'nt seem to be an exact science.I'm not advocating an all woman world just exploring an idea-a bit like the Amazons.Yes,women are very competitive about appearance etc but that's because they're competing for men.So what I was saying was what would like be like if they did'nt have to compete.I'm afarid your argument about women buliding ,designing ,making stuff does'nt really stand up anymore.I don't know what it's like where you live but there are loads of women in all knds of fields now.Don't forget it's been 'access denied 'to women for along time to all kinds of employment field and professions.



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 05:17 AM
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Well let me just start by saying what I am about to post is not to win the favor of women over. I am not selfish. I am married to a beautiful lady and treat her like a Queen just like she treats me like a King. (equality rules) I am not doing this to look good in front of others. So let's leave that at that if we could because I am going to both agree and disagree here.

Ok then...

Part 1. More wars with men than if only women were around.

I really can't agree with this but there is a reason why which I will outline in the next part. Plenty of examples of warrior women are out that are just as fierce as their male counterparts but they have the added bonus of wanting to prove themselves in respect to gender equality.

Part 2. The male ego has alot to answer for.

Sorry guys, I am with candy on this one. Alot of places all over this world women are second class citizens and they are objects. In religion I see examples and in politics and corporation I see examples. Women making 70 cents on the dollar for the same job? Bull crap! Women not allowed in combat? Also BS. I used to work as a medic and now I am in the military. If I could have video taped my life you would see thousands of little AND huge examples of women not be treated well at all. f a woman can do the job then let her do it.

The military thinks that if a woman goes down in combat a man may try extra hard to get her even at the risk of himself and his unit. I that is the case then it is time for men to wake up and maybe start treating 'chicks' as women. Better yet, let's treat them as people just like we are. No offense ladies but if i am in combat and you have been shot dead and I can't get you without getting my airmen killed, I am not coming for you. The rules I have been given by my superiors is to let them lay if it risks the rest. In a way though that should be the ultimate compliment to a woman who wants actual equality. I have heard from several that they don't want to be treated as less but they also don't want to be treated better because it puts them in the same awkward position.

NOW....at the same time if women do really want honest equality then it's time they start getting the same harsh jail sentences that men get for things like murder or sleeping with a child. Now I am not talking about murder when a woman has been abused I am talking cold-hearted murder.
When I watch these female teachers get therapy and no jail time for sleeping with a student who is 13 or 14 it makes me ill. Not that I am saying they should go away for life but if a guy does it he can get himself a sweet 15 years in an institution where he more than likely will be raped and brutally killed for harming a child should the news get out.

If we want equality then both sides need to wake up.

Guys: Women shouldn't have to fight like the devil to be equal
Girls: You should expect the exact same rewards as us and the exact same penalities as well.

That's my opinion anyway. I will continue to treat my wife like me. Will I ever hit her in the face? NOPE but it's because I won't slap anyone period. (plus she'd probably stomp the crap out of me) :-p

-Kyo



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 06:35 AM
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reply to post by KyoZero
 


You make some great points Kyozero and your military insight is interesting.I just assumed women were treated the same as men in the military in the US as there seems to be loads of them in it,so you've enlightened me there.I agree ,equality should be wholesale ,across the board.Women are still fighting for equality universally and I really hate it when I have to walk around Coventry where I live and see women wearing the burka.To me it symbolisises all that is wrong with the oppression of women-making them as invisible as possible.Glad you agree with me about the male ego.I was;nt bashing men in that respect.I think in the current state of play men have more to lose if they look weak to an enemy or an opposition but sometimes there is just sheer bloody mindedness at work.Happy to hear you have a good relationship,well done.



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 08:50 AM
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reply to post by candyfloss
 


Perhaps I am not making myself clear on this post.

There have not been historically that many women leaders verses men leaders ...that noticeably large a ratio....historically speaking. What the track records indicate to me is that women leaders have had no problem sending the soldiers ..mostly men..off to war as have the men. ...even considering the number of few women leaders that there historically have been.

So what I am saying is that the implication of less wars or even no wars ...if women ran things is to me not true. Or even a all women world.

As long as there are women/people in this world there will still be wars.

That is my understanding ..my read of what the history is stating.

I have found women to be no less competitive than men. They are competitive about different beliefs and values..but no less competitive. What women often are about this competitiveness is more subtle. But make no mistake ..it is competitiveness nonetheless.

As to women in all kinds of fields..Candyfloss...I should tell you that I am in the shipbuilding field. While more and more women are entering this field...they are not by and large entering the field in certain of the onboard skills ..and most certainly most are not looking to do this kind of work as a career..but only to bridge till other options can be found. Work with better conditions...not as much RISK.
However ...to be fair about this..in the electronic age..many males are no longer looking to enter this field..having been raised primarily by women...and on a diet of television and video games. They too are looking for easier work....Options.
One of the facets of my job involves doing nuclear work. Most women here are not looking to do this kind of work. The men too...and certainly not as a career.

I do not know many electrical lineman..who are women. Nor tree cutters...automobile mechanics. Railroad peoples. Steelworkers..down on the floors of the plants/smelters. Even home builders..Here in the states even these jobs are quickly being taken over by Mexicans...not women.
What is happening here Candyfloss..is that like the UK...here in the States we are reaching the point economically where we can no longer afford ourselves if we do not import cheaper labor. You folks have Muslims ...we have Mexicans.
What I am saying here is that the more physically demanding and risky work ...which keeps civilization going...women as a whole are not interested in going into these areas..and certainly not as a career.
But the sad truth is that it is also so for the caliber of males being raised today.

This is also the another reason an all woman world will not work...economically we cannot afford ourselves at the rates our governments are wont to inflate the currency...for their views of what it takes to stay in power.,

As to women wearing the burka, I am not in favor of it but that is their custom. In the UK and many parts of the Continent I am aware that there are significant social problems with this group of people who do not want to assimilate with the locals. They in fact want the locals to assimilate and move over for them. My mother is from Germany and tells me what is happening there through relatives. The French and those in the Netherlands are experiencing significant problems with this trend. Most of these problems are being kept out of our News media here in the states next to the significance of it and what it bodes for us. I am well aware of this ..both about the coming problem and the ignorance of our news media.
I am also a Ham Radio operator and at times get accounts from Hams in other countries.
You are going to have significant problems in the future over this in the UK...it has the potential under circumstances to become a time bomb. Just like France.
I became alarmed when the grandson of an artist...was shot to death, or was it stabbed, in Amsterdam. His name was Van Gogh if I recall, and was somehow related to the famous painter.
From what I recall about this Van Gogh's beliefs I probably would not agree with him on most things but a person has a right to speak their beliefs as long as they do not physically injure others. Apparently this was not the case with members of this group you are describing with the burkas.

Gotta go Candyfloss...things to get done here today,
Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 11:36 AM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 


Yeah ,I understand what you are saying Orangetom.I'm interested that you are in shipbuilding as I'm from a ship building town myself-Barrow -in Furness in Cumbria.Most of my male relatives worked there.My Dad worked on Polaris and the Sheffield(that was destroyed in the Falklands war).My husband worked on the last lot of Trident subs.My brother in law was weapons systems manager for the subs in New England(New London)It's funny but one of the winners of Miss Great Britain beauty contest some years back was actually a welder in the shipyard.As for women doing dangerous jobs -well I think there are some of them-not as many as there are men but maybe there will be more in the future I think it's hard to say at the moment.



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 11:39 AM
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Just one more thing,don't forget that during WW2 women did men's jobs and well and they liked those jobs.As history goes they wanted to keep those jobs but had to return to the home once the war was over.Furthermore ,the bravery of alot of women during WW1 secured the vote for women here ,not just the suffergette /suffergist movement.



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by candyfloss
 


Goodness me Candyfloss,

Yes I am familiar somewhat with the city of Barrow in Furness. This is the location where the New Astute class of fast attack submarines are being built for the UK. Long overdue in my estimation. Great that you have all those relations doing that kind of work.
I even took an opportuinty to take a look at this factory from the satellite. Very nice facility there. Big!!! Buildings..just like here. Many assemblys can be worked inside ..protected until time to put them in the water.

Well...Candyfloss..I know this because that is precisely the kind of work in which I am engaged. Submarines and Aircraft Carriers...at this location here...

www.nn.northropgrumman.com...

There are women welders here ...not that many and they usually work in the shops under more ideal conditions. Not usually out in the platens where they must go into dangerous tanks or with extremely hot and difficult conditions...very tight confined spaces. Most of them go to other departments or go to other work outside of this yard. It is the same in the machinery department in which I work.

I too am given to wonder if this will change in the future.

By the way..You do know that we are getting ready for another war...yes? It has not gotten here as of yet...what you see happening is only a prelude.

This came to me by way of some people who purchase stocks more than myself and are more attuned to the trend lines than myself. They tell me that all the commodities necessary for equipment and ammunition are going up rapidly in price and stock value. Steel, copper, aluminum, etc etc. The latest one was nitrate stocks and nitrate company's. Nitrate used in gunpowder as well as fertilizers is going up in price. Even the local constabulary here is having trouble affording ammunition for training. I did not mark this trend when at first I heard this but with other tell tales ..it began to fit.

Thanks for your post and as usual my time constraints are closing in on me today and I must shove off.

Thanks again,
Orangetom



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 03:01 PM
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As long there are women, there will be food on my table.

KIDDING! But seriously though, you know how many radical feminists are out there?

The book SCUM comes to mind...



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 09:36 PM
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reply to post by candyfloss
 


In the past few 100+ years women have been conditioned to compete and well be evil to each other... Not to mention the gender defining toys like kitchen sets for girls and those bloody Bratz dolls, OMG slutty kids toys.
On a side note if Barbie were a real person she would have to walk on all fours because she couldn't supper her weight like a normal person...
Ugh I could go on and on about all the crazy things little girls and boys are subjected to.
Personally I think women should be in charge and men be responsible for procreation and opening jars.
But really I would be happy if the glass ceiling exploded, women in 3rd world countries got proper rights, spousal abuse become a thing of the past and rape be a thing that only happens in prison! lol



posted on Oct, 19 2008 @ 11:09 PM
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I hate this freakin statement so much.

Women are just as F'ed up as men are they get mad just like men do they hate just like men do they fight over stupid Ideals just as men do, SO WHY DO WE ACT LIKE WOMAN ARE BETTER!?

For gods sake if we are to ever become better as human beings then we need to stop thinking ridiculous thoughts like these and realize that WE ARE ALL HUMAN. No one is better no one is worse, we are all in the same boat going along the same ride so we need to start acting like it.



posted on Oct, 20 2008 @ 02:21 AM
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Originally posted by caballero
I hate this freakin statement so much.

Women are just as F'ed up as men are they get mad just like men do they hate just like men do they fight over stupid Ideals just as men do, SO WHY DO WE ACT LIKE WOMAN ARE BETTER!?

For gods sake if we are to ever become better as human beings then we need to stop thinking ridiculous thoughts like these and realize that WE ARE ALL HUMAN. No one is better no one is worse, we are all in the same boat going along the same ride so we need to start acting like it.


Yeah, seriously. It's human nature to stratify or segregate and then fight over whatever it is we've decided our differences are. It's not just men - women do it to. Haven't any of you ever been to high school?



posted on Oct, 20 2008 @ 02:30 AM
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This statement can be simplyfied as follow: As soon as you put 2 people into a room, you have a quarel.



posted on Oct, 20 2008 @ 07:53 PM
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Here's my take on this.

It simply is up to the individual. I have a very good friend (Carol). I've known her for years. In comparing us two however she's the one who would most likely get into a fight. I'm too laid back. As far as wars go? I really couldn't tell you since people are so very different from individual to individual. No, I feel that people are too different from person to person to generalize.



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