Judging Incompetence at Olympic Gymnastics

I understand that it was an average of two vaults, that's not the issue here. I wish I still had it on my DVR, but the next day Tim Daggett and Bella broke down that vault attempt and showed the major flaws in it. You are correct in stating that a fall was .8 of a deduction. The other major deducation should have been .3 for her hands hitting the vault at different times and then two other minor ones for her body position as she spun onto the vault and the lack of height if i remember. Regardless, who has more experience in these matters than someone who has coached the BEST IN THE WORLD like Bella and someone who has actually competed like Tim Daggett. Much more than myself or you, so I'm willing to take their word for it.

Originally posted by Evil Genius
The other major deducation should have been .3 for her hands hitting the vault at different times and then two other minor ones for her body position as she spun onto the vault and the lack of height if i remember.

0.8 and 0.3 are the Maximum scores you are able to take off depending on the circumstances so even you take into account the other mistakes (which were there) that is only a 1.2 point difference so that would make it a 16.2 routine if she did it right with the difficulty level she choose. I dont see how the score was a major problem because the scores were done to their proper level. What is the main contention your making?, they should take more than what the rules state?

Regardless, who has more experience in these matters than someone who has coached the BEST IN THE WORLD

The new system was introduced recently so I dont know how "prior" experience has much to do with how it was judged. The judges on the panel had more than enough experience between them to give a correct judgement with the CORRECT rules. If she had coached the worlds best, so what?. We know she is a good teacher and mentor, but can she judge?. Gymnast know what to look out for and I doubt 7 world class judges (who all have lots of experience) will be incapale of making that decision, espeically regarding American gold medals which they rewarded

Australian judge now getting death threats. Reported by Channel 7 Australia

Originally posted by chinawhite
If judging could get any better than China should get another 2 more gold and America should lose those two.

I guess you refer to the Romanian one, the tied one and the one which sacramone did a very basic routine?

WHAT!?!?!?! You are delerious!

Last night was another perfect example. An american whom had an extremely difficult rated routine (Johnathon Horton) and did it perfectly.

He was given a low score and even the crowd was booing. He ended up taking Silver when he deserved Gold. The spectators agreed so you are just full of it.

Horton was happy with silver, but he truly deserved gold. Look at the routine the Chinese guy did and it does not impress whatsoever.

Makes me wonder if you work for the Chinese government.


Overall the American team has overcome many obstacles and shocked many. Yes .... China overall has more gold and would still have more gold if the medals that belonged to the US were given to the us. The point isnt china having the highest gold count, the point is great athletes being disenfranchised by biased judges.

Some big names have argued exactly what im arguing now. They are people with experience and know better!

reply to post by AndrewTB


Look at the overall medal counts for the top 10 countries, paying particular attention to the distribution of G/S/B medals and their relative proportions. Anything look odd about China's medal count in comparison to the others in the top 10 overall?

Medal Count

I guess that happens when you win 17 Golds and only 1 silver in the subjective sports of gymnastics and diving. Granted, I thought they deserved some of them and its certainly not proof of any impropriety by the judges, but when I see a breakdown like that for subjective sports, it definitely looks more than a bit odd.

Originally posted by AndrewTB
WHAT!?!?!?!

You are delerious!
Last night was another perfect example. An american whom had an extremely difficult rated routine (Johnathon Horton) and did it perfectly.

I'm delirious??????. Accept this FACT in bold

Zou had a 7.2 difficulty level while Hortan had only a 6.9. Zou CLEARLY had the harder routine on the beam and his score is OBVIOUSLY harder. Now what are you talking about judging bias?. Even the US commentators said Zou had perfect execution and with his higher score had the higher overall score. Now how is that somehow "unfair", because the US should always win even if they dont deserve it?

More sour grapes from the Americans. They now what to change the rules because they didn't win even though China CLEARLY won this routine. Now what is your argument again?

Horton's previous start value (degree of difficulty), 6.4, would have been the field's lowest. His 6.9 was second-highest, three-tenths below winner Zou Kai of China.

Link


Zou

Zou chose a routine with the difficulty zenith of 7.2 among eight finalists to show his potential in which China has been transitionally weak.

news.xinhuanet.com...

if the medals that belonged to the US were given to the us.

You mean tose medals the US have belong to China to extend her lead?. The all-round womens should ahve went to China.

I responded to someone else before

"Karolyi is a clown who is making all this controversy so he can retain his position at NBC. Try get someone critical of the US in that position and he'll be at the rafters in no time. If the US loses then there must be a excuse for them losing. Karolyi, anyhow is obviously bias with his wife being the US coach so he has obvious reason to make those judgments. Anyhow I'm interested in the bit where you say he said his routine was more difficult. Did he actually say that?
"

Originally posted by vor78
I guess that happens when you win 17 Golds and only 1 silver in the subjective sports of gymnastics and diving.

Most of those events, Chinese athletes were well in the lead by unassailable leads. It wasn't as if all of them were ties or even close.

Originally posted by AndrewTB
Last night was another perfect example. An american whom had an extremely difficult rated routine (Johnathon Horton) and did it perfectly.

This just shows the state of US mass-media and what they feed to their population. Even obviously CORRECT decisions are made to look wrong. No wonder Americans are paranoid about the world. Using this as a "perfect" example was funny because it proves my point about American propaganda exactly. The US mastered in a way that they are fooling you and you dont even know it

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by AndrewTB
Last night was another perfect example. An american whom had an extremely difficult rated routine (Johnathon Horton) and did it perfectly.

This just shows the state of US mass-media and what they feed to their population. Even obviously CORRECT decisions are made to look wrong. No wonder Americans are paranoid about the world. Using this as a "perfect" example was funny because it proves my point about American propaganda exactly. The US mastered in a way that they are fooling you and you dont even know it

Nice way to spin it! I am seriously even more convinced you work for the Chinese government. You just work far to hard to put together propaganda.

Theres a reason the fans boo'd when Horton got his score and its not because it was high. All I really have to say about that.

Wait 4 years. When China can't cheat nowhere near as much and I guarantee you they will have NOWHERE NEAR as much gold as this year.

From using minors, to fake singers to just about everything else!

Read my posts you'll see I was favoring china at the beginning of this. ON the other hand i'm completely disillusioned.

Ive said it a million times, china would still be ahead, but a lot of great athletes got screwed by corrupt judges.

Im done arguing with you, obviously your own people agreed Horton got ripped off, so why you trying to argue it so much? Again, it all leads back to the theory of working for the government.

reply to post by chinawhite


Let me say this again, so it's clear to you. I don't know how to judge gymnastics. I would guess that you don't either. Therefore, I'm left to come to my conclusions based on the analysts interpretation. The two analysts I mentioned broke down Cheng Fe's vault and came to the conclusion that she did not have enough deductions for the mistakes she made. Now, if these two analysts were just a couple of yahoos, like myself or yourself, I would probably just throw it out. But it's not. It's the single most famous coach in all of gymnastics history as far as I know. I'll take his word for it.

The second point I would like to make is the system has a serious fundamental flaw if one can absolutely fail an attempt and still win a medal. It is counter-intuitive and makes no sense. Imagine, if you will, the old perfect 10 scoring system and Cheng Fe crashes to her knees the way she did. Would she have received the same result? Not a chance.

One last thing. You said...

No wonder Americans are paranoid about the world.

Kind of an ironic thing to say, considering the internet censorship that China exhibits. I would say China was more than a little concerned with their image worldwide, as they faked fireworks for the TV cameras, faked the little girl singer because they didn't want one with buck teeth, and faked the passports of gymnasts who were 14 years old so they could compete on their home turf.

Good day and have fun monopolizing more of a thread that no one will be reading.

Originally posted by AndrewTB
Theres a reason the fans boo'd when Horton got his score and its not because it was high. All I really have to say about that.

because they were American . All you have to say is you accept the score and you were wrong. Simple as that, Zou had a HIGHER score and better execution and recieved the gold medal for giving the better performance. Horton had the lesser performance and recieved the silver because he wasn't good enough.


More sour grapes from the Americans. They now what to change the rules because they didn't win even though China CLEARLY won this routine. Now what is your argument again?

Horton's previous start value (degree of difficulty), 6.4, would have been the field's lowest. His 6.9 was second-highest, three-tenths below winner Zou Kai of China.

Link


Zou

Zou chose a routine with the difficulty zenith of 7.2 among eight finalists to show his potential in which China has been transitionally weak.

news.xinhuanet.com...

Wait 4 years. When China can't cheat nowhere near as much and I guarantee you they will have NOWHERE NEAR as much gold as this year.

And thank you for posting your "perfect" example which you were proven completely incorrect. You come here whinning about the scores and start claiming this and that and were proven completely wrong.

Before the Events started. Most Chinese gold medalist were already the WORLD CHAMPION of their events. Its no surprise that they bet the lowly Americans with huge scores. In the 2012 Chinese athletes will have built on their more diverse medals and hopefully double American gold next time instead of just beating them by a good margin. If the US wasn't able to import the best from the world and relied on domestic talent then the US medals would take a tumble

America didn't even deserve half of its golds and only got through with a combination of Bribing, cheating and drugs. Once the Americans eventually get caught like Marion Jones then we'll know who the real olympic superpower is. China won her medals FAIRLY through a combination of being WORLD CHAMPIONS and having the better rountines while the Americans got theirs from eating the dust of the Chinese.

Read my posts you'll see I was favoring china at the beginning of this. ON the other hand i'm completely disillusioned.

Your favouring China?. Your making an American type of joke?. Please come on, you said that to yourself making you feel like your taking the moral high ground when you clearly were not. A thinly veiled patriotic rant about having sour grapes over decisions which obviously would never had gone your way




[edit on 21-8-2008 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by Evil Genius
The two analysts I mentioned broke down Cheng Fe's vault and came to the conclusion that she did not have enough deductions for the mistakes she made.

How much deductions do you think she deserved. If she pulled that routine off then we are looking at a 16.2-3 and she only got a 15. A 1.2-3 deduction is HUGE. I dont understand this mentality that the judges seemingly got it wrong

It's the single most famous coach in all of gymnastics history as far as I know. I'll take his word for it.

Ill take the word of 7 highly experienced judges instead of a RETIRED and highly bias judge who is "out of the game" regarding these new rules. Why would a coach have so much credibility. Do coachs now outrule umpires in basketball?. Judges are TRAINED to judge while coaches are trained to coach not judge espeically when they have been retired for so long since the new rules were in place

Imagine, if you will, the old perfect 10 scoring system and Cheng Fe crashes to her knees the way she did.

Exactly, the OLD system

Kind of an ironic thing to say, considering the internet censorship that China exhibits.

So your argument rest on the fact that you believe I'm living in China?. Nothing ironic if I didn't actually live in China would it?

This is interesting. Notice how they rank it. Bronze now first????. It kind of looks like America is leading if your not really paying attention like a normal American viewer. I wonder why they would put it that way

reply to post by chinawhite


Okay, you talked me back into it.

The first thought that comes to my mind...

is that the best you can do? Those are your rebuttals for very valid points? Laughable...

How much deductions do you think she deserved.

I already addressed this as I said I'm not a judge and was basing my opinion on one expressed by two very knowledgeable analysts.

You are basing your opinion on the judges and taking their level of expertise as a given. The fact is the best judges in the world come from the countries involved in the meet, therefore they had to use the best of what's left.

Ill take the word of 7 highly experienced judges instead of a RETIRED and highly bias judge who is "out of the game" regarding these new rules. Why would a coach have so much credibility. Do coachs now outrule umpires in basketball?. Judges are TRAINED to judge while coaches are trained to coach not judge espeically when they have been retired for so long since the new rules were in place

The only point I'll concede in that statement is that Bela is biased. He definitely pulls for the Americans because he used to be their coach and his wife is currently the coach. BUT, and this is an important but, his bias in rooting for his team did not affect his analysis of the competition in question. He was adamant that Cheng Fe was given a gift by the judges, but if he was truly biased he would have said the same about He Kevin. The fact is he did not. He said he thought the judges were fair in that contest and the only complaint he had was in the manner in which the tie was broken.

You can't understand why a coach should have such credibility and that shows your true lack of understanding concerning the essence of competition. Coaches are not trained to coach. It is in their blood. They have lived the game, usually from an early age, and have devoted their life to passing on what they have learned. Almost all the great ones have played the game at the highest level of competition and know every detail intimately, from experience on the playing field. How do I know this? Because I am a coach myself. And a son of a coach. My specialty lies in basketball and volleyball, which I've played for most of my life, and coached for the last 12 years.

Officials are trained. And that is a big part of the problem. The best officials are ones who played the game and understand the game within a game. Unfortunately, those officials are few and far between. Almost all coaches know more about the game than officials. Because there are some things you just can't teach, you have to learn from experiencing it on the court.

Exactly, the OLD system

Look, this isn't rocket science. The change in format is fundamentally flawed as stated in my previous post. You have nothing to say to that point. The start value added to the execution is the ONLY difference in how the scores are tabulated. The execution is still based out of 10 points. That is exactly the same as it always has been and to imply that Bela wouldn't know the implications of the rule changes is absurd.

So your argument rest on the fact that you believe I'm living in China?. Nothing ironic if I didn't actually live in China would it?

Please show me where I thought you were from China? The fact is, there is nothing you can say to any of the points I brought up regarding the ironic nature of your statement because they are all true. China is a lying, cheating nation who will get what is coming when the SHTF over He Kevin's age. You want to go by the rules apparently, you state it all through this thread. Can't wait until the IOC goes by the rules and strips her of her medal and penalizes China for their blatant disrespect of the rules and the spirit of competition.

Now, why don't you go stick your nose in the following thread and say, "The rules are the rules! She should be stripped of her medal!"

You won't because you are all about the propoganda.

Hacker Uncovers Proof Chinese Gymnast is Underage

well, these whole criticism and trying to create problems which does not exists, that only tell me one thing:

Bad losers.

reply to post by Evil Genius


As an update, the IOC is now officially ordering an investigation into the matter.

Probe ordered into Chinese gymnast's age

Originally posted by Evil Genius
Okay, you talked me back into it.

You mentioned you wont be responding?

I was expecting a reply anyhow so Its good to know I somehow talked you into responding

is that the best you can do? Those are your rebuttals for very valid points? Laughable...

If you ask me stupid answers you will recieve a reply answering them.

by two very knowledgeable analysts.

Do you know why judges from the countries people compete in are not allowed to judge. Think of the reason and there you go, you have answered the questioned you were seeking to find. Yes they are knowledgable but they are highly bias and when a decision like so makes headlines then they dont become rational in their decisions.

You are basing your opinion on the judges and taking their level of expertise as a given. The fact is the best judges in the world come from the countries involved in the meet

That is a stupid idea. So the gymnastic superpowers always are competing in the world. China, US, Russia, Romania etc then that means the judges or potentional judges from those events are always judged by other nations. If the other nations are doing all the judging then they would have the experience and the knowledge instead of the "superpower" gymnast countries. Your argument lies on the incompetance of the judges which obviously wouldn't be the case. Why would the IGF hire someone which they thought was incompetant. It bewilders belief that you can sit there straight faced while questioning judges who have probably been doing that same job for over two decades

He was adamant that Cheng Fe was given a gift by the judges

And the Chinese coach was adamant that Cheng Fe deserved a gold. So what?. The judges correctly deducted the points off Cheng. What exactly was your point?. What she should automatically fail because America should won?. That is ignorant to think so. I would love to see that anlalysis he did because Alicia Sacramone would have got a few more points deducted. The commentators I was watching thought she was going to get lower than she actually got because he legs weren't tight.

Maybe if Cheng got 15.50 for her valut then questions could be asked, she got a 15 which makes perfect sense to me since her start score was 6.8 or higher + Part B start score of 10. Take the 0.8 away, take the 0.3 away for having hands touch at different points and then take another 0.6 away for the other 2 mistakes you said she made and its 1.7 marks away which is VERY close to what she recieved. If you have that analysis that they did it would be very good

The best officials are ones who played the game and understand the game within a game.

All those judges WERE former gymnast themselves, your point is null. If you were trying to rest it on some point about them not knowing the "game" you are sadly mistaken. They might have the gold medals but it doesn't take a champion to do so like your own stint in little league. Anyhow you bit about "in their blood", come on, that is a old cliche and has been very much over used. Unless there is a way to prove that you can't expect me to take your word for it.

You have nothing to say to that point.

There was nothing to say. You kept refering to the old system and I pointed out that it was the old system. Who really knows if Bela Karolyi did know the rules, he sure didn't know what to do when a tie occured

The tiebreaking formula is so convoluted, former U.S. coach Bela Karolyi didn't understand how it worked and even the partisan Chinese crowd at the National Indoor Stadium seemed subdued in its reaction to He receiving the gold medal on the podium.

seattletimes.nwsource.com...

Please show me where I thought you were from China?

You replied to my point about America with a direct reply about the conditions in China to suggest that I should worry about my own backyard in regards to own perception of the world.

China is a lying, cheating nation who will get what is coming when the SHTF over He Kevin's age.

Coming from an American?. Should I be insulted by this? .

If the best you can come up with are outdated and wrong internet files than I dont think China has to worrying about the whinning Americans at all. Funny how the Americans also accused two other Chinese athletes of being underage as well when they clearly were not. Having been to hundreds of meets previously they still put up this claim to try and make the American people feel better about being bronze medal specialist


Anyhow I posted before


With the Chinese winning the gold medal the Americans being sore losers as they are claimed that the Chinese athletes were underage and thus "cheating", as this documentry from 2003 proves, they are the correct age and trained in their correct age division. The funny thing is, a few small mis-reportings somehow overruled the fact that they had so much MORE REGISTERED ages in PREVIOUS competitions and yet the US media tried to point at some incorrect records to somehow make a point

With respect to the cases of Deng Lingling and Jiang Yuyuan, there is a 2003 documentary film about how China was preparing for the 2008 Olympics. This 89 minute documentary even includes the then unknown hurdler named Liu Xiang. In 2003, China was already screening young girls for the 2008 Olympics, and the group included Jiang Yuyuan and Deng Lingling (but not He Kexin). While birth certificates, passports and newspaper reports can be faked, it is unlikely that this documentary was faked back then because the Chinese sports authorities were just guessing who among the large group will emerge as eventual Olympians five years down the road.

Quote " This is for girl athletes who will be at the right age in 2008"


Still looks the same even when she is 16. This was when she was 12




Quote " Deng Lingling is the child who loves to cry"


www.zonaeuropa.com...

Originally posted by Evil Genius
Now, why don't you go stick your nose in the following thread and say, "The rules are the rules! She should be stripped of her medal!"

Americas version of "proof". Old internet cached files stating a wrong age?. Lets invade iraq, I heard Jim from computers heard from his mate that saddam has bombs. Lets go in with have all the proof we need. I love the rules those and gymnast that are 16 can compete which is why she can compete

Originally posted by Evil Genius
You won't because you are all about the propoganda.

I won't???? read my response. You just sound like a poorly tuned Bela . Your attempt to launch a vendetta against th Chinese gymnast is laughable, mis-guided and based on a clown who is trying to get some more publicity on NBC and who lacks the capability to make a fair judgment


A old passport issued 5 years ago when He wasn't even dreaming of going to the olympics and hardly planning to go there underage. She was a unknown at that point so why go through all that trouble to change a nobodies age so she can compete at Beijing. She was not even a particulary gited gymnast at that point and didn't even win any world titles for her event which blows even more doubt as to whether China would go to all that trouble to issue passport when she was barely even able to lift herself up let alone do all those routines. And the fact that EVERYTHING on paper and NOT on the internet says she is 16 while the Americans only hawk back to some misguided internet page. People are proclaimed dead on internet pages, people who died ages ago still are listed on some internet files as being alive.

IOC: Despite questions, no proof China cheated

BEIJING - Despite persistent questions about the ages of several members of the Chinese women's gymnastics team that won the gold medal, the International Olympic Committee said Friday there is still no proof anyone cheated and believes the controversy will be "put to rest."

The IOC asked the International Gymnastics Federation to investigate "what have been a number of questions and apparent discrepancies," spokeswoman Giselle Davies said. But all of the information the Chinese gymnastics federation has presented so far supports its insistence that its athletes were old enough to compete.

"We believe the matter will be put to rest and there's no question ... on the eligibility," Davies said. "The information we have received seems satisfactory in terms of the correct documentation — including birth certificates."

Chinese coach Lu Shanzhen told The Associated Press they gave the FIG new documents on Thursday to try to remove any doubts about He's age, including an old passport, residency card and her current ID card.

Lu said all the documents were issued by various departments of the Chinese government, and that he had nothing more to put forth as evidence.

"If these valid documents are not enough to clarify this problem, then what will you believe?" an indignant Lu said.

news.yahoo.com...