So I'm an agnostic/atheist. Prove to me why the bible isn't just a tool.

reply to post by vitalmune

"If anybody at all can give me a good fight for this by all means go right on ahead, I'm not reinforcing my beliefs as you put it, I'm simply questioning others beliefs, not in a bad sorta 'why do you believe in such nonsense' but outta curiosity and pure fun."

Well, out of curiosity and pure fun, why don't you pretend for a moment, that there really is a God and pretend that he had a son. Pretend he sent his son to bring 'you' a very special gift. Now pretend that he is sitting right next to you - he can see you but you can't see him. He's cognizant of you, but you are not cognizant of him.

Now pretend that the gift he wants to give you, enables you to be cognizant of him. Imagine that same gift dwelled in the major and minor prophets of the Old Testament all the way up to John the Baptist......

For pure fun, let's pretend God wanted every single person to be able to have this same gift - proof on an individual basis. But to bring 'You' the truth, his son was beaten unrecognizable.

Pretend, every gaping gash in his flesh would be stinging, as his salty sweat rolled down his body, as he's dragging a stinking piece of wood, through the streets of Jerusalem, that he "KNOWS" they're gonna nail him to. As he falls and crawls - not once, but three different times - as he drags his dying body down the path of death - he has one thing on his mind - YOU.

Now pretend everything I told you is true. How would you feel? Sick? Ashamed? Humbled to be loved that much?

..... he could be sitting right beside you.....just waiting for you to say 'okay come on in

Well how about if we "pretend" that in the 6th century AD the leaders of various christian-judaic"cults" came together and looked over the vast collections of teachings that had developed in the 500 or so years since the passing of Yeshua.

Then lets "pretend" that they choose the ones which would allow them to preach a message to the populace which would allow them to control the way people lived their lives and give ultimate authority on earth to those who claimed to carry the word of god.

Lets keep "pretending" that over the next thousand or so years, the organization's which sprang up based around these few messages of control persecuted those who sought out their own views of the truth and reached out to make life better for other people through techniques such as science or by exploring spirituality in a context not found within the gospels chosen by the churches at the council meeting.

Oh wait unlike the poster above me, we (edit) dont (/edit) need to pretend about these things, because they are fact.

Now I do believe a man called Yeshua walked the earth, was very influential and had many good teachings (I'm a jew by the way not a christian and yes I think much the same of the jewish religion), that however does not translate into the bible being a tool of spiritual freedom, and it certainly doesnt validate the churches which have formed to supposedly spread his teachings.

[edit on 17-8-2008 by gYvMessanger]

reply to post by gYvMessanger

Did I say one word in my post about the Church or the way they picked and chose what went into the Bible and what was left out? No.

My "pretend" game was only to benefit the "unbeliever" who asked.

Believe me, I too have read gospels that should have been included in the Bible and in my opinion were left out deliberately. They control the content and surely keep the real good stuff for themselves.

reply to post by gYvMessanger


"Now I do believe a man called Yeshua walked the earth, was very influential and had many good teachings (I'm a jew by the way not a christian and yes I think much the same of the jewish religion), that however does not translate into the bible being a tool of spiritual freedom, and it certainly doesnt validate the churches which have formed to supposedly spread his teachings."

Well you go right on believing he was influential and had good teachings and I'll go right on believing, that he's the "one" who provides the undeniable truth - that everything he said, in what is included in the New Testament is true. There's no other like him nor will there ever be.

All these reactions to him and about him were foretold long ago. For almost 2000 years things have been delayed but a day is coming when there will be no more delay. All he is waiting for is for his own to say "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."

Have you ever considered the conspiracy is against you, that they don't want you to know the truth. Why would "they" not want you to know the truth? It's because "they" know when you know it's all over.

The truth has been hidden from you.

I have considered it yes, I spent time to become very familiar with the messianic scripture that the concept of the messiah was based on, I then look at what Yeshua did during his life, weighed up that against what is supposed to be "proof" of the messiah, looked at the world around me, and realized that whilst he probably could have been the messiah, the actions of the jews (along with others) caused it not to be so.

In brief in the original jewish messianic texts, we are given two options for the end times, put simply we have "the gentle way" and we have "the hard way".

They gentle way would happen if the jews fulfilled their mission to act as a spiritual light around the worship of one god to the rest of the nations. If the jews upheld the various lengthy laws they need to abide by and get the rest of the nations to follow the seven noahide laws then the messiah would "come early" so to speak, unify the world, heaven would manifest on earth and we would all have a jolly nice time.

Its possible that around the times of Yeshuas birth the world was ready for such a transformation, indeed even without his presence his followers would go on to turn a largely pagen world into a monothestic one moreso than the jews whose "mission" it is to do so, they did this through the spreading of Christianity, and by essentially being a driving force behind the creation of Islam (not on purpose obviously just how it played out).

However the tree has grown far from its roots, and modern days churches are clearly means of control as is the modern day bible.

Now all that aside there is also the many tasks before his death that Yeshua did not fufill that would mark him as the King Messiah. It is said in Jewish literature that every generation a potential messiah is born, people who may become the messiah and who do great spiritual working even if it turns out the world does not yet deserve the messiah to come. So with that in mind, the tasks undone, and the potential of potential messiahs, Im happy to acknowledge Yeshua both exsisted, did great works and COULD HAVE BEEN the messiah, but the Jews did not deserve it, and indeed fought against it.

As punishment the Rabbinical Jews rose to power, the jews became corrupted away from the original teachings, and became themselves tools of the priesthood elite.

Now we are all waiting Christians, Jews, Muslims etc for "The Hard Way", in which under Judiac messianic scripture we are taught there will be 2 messiahs (Moschiach Ben Yosef and Moschiach Ben David), one followed by the other, and also what you would term the "anti-christ" who will kill the first before the second in turn rises become the King Messiah, who will lead the earth to redemption.

I do believe in the Messianic Prophecy, I think it will take a great spiritual leader rising to save this world, frankly if I didn't believe it I'm not sure how I would go on, and believe me if when that figure is clear to all, and if it turns out to be Yeshua I wont deny him because of that, however I suspect the case wont be so clear cut, and if anything claiming to be the christ will be something that the "anti-messiah" will do.

I have my relationship with God, and I think that is what everyone should strive to find, don't put your faith in idols, or men, no matter how wise, use their teachings to help you find the path to god, not as a emissary to work on your behalf because your better than that, dont give them obedience because they tell you God will be angry with you if you don't, because thats just plain old fashion BS.

I should probably qualify the above by saying in my eyes the jews are an occult bloodline (I am jewish by the way), the complex system of laws and rituals jews are supposed to abide by do I believe have an effect on the spiritual makeup of the world, and do the rituals of many cultures.

Undeniably everyday Judaism is about control and manipulation of the masses (of jews mainly, but jews are allowed to do sneaky things to non jews), I don't think the early Rabbis and Prophets would have denied that, they felt it was the way to bring about peace through earth and spiritual development, Spiritualism Lite for the Masses so to speak that could be tapped in on when they needed it.

I am Agnostic. I was born into a very religious family and went to church a couple of times a week. I grew up and learned that there was more to life than that. However, it was through study that my "faith" changed.

I am going to give you a list of 5 books that everyone should read. Read these books with an open mind and learn to live by the moral values in them.

>Holy Bible - because the only way to understand a thing is to study a thing
>Koran - same as above
>Aesops Fables - some people have a problem with him, but the moral value is what you should take from them
>Wisdom of Confucius - this wise Chinese philosopher's teachings offer much that everyone can benefit from
>Art of War - as a person who goes against the beliefs of 92% or more of the populus, you must be ready to mentally defend yourself and present yourself with conviction and strength

Originally posted by enoughalready
The only proof that you need that the Bible is not a tool is in the Bible itself... All you have to do is say the sinner's prayer and he will forgive you of your heathen views... There is no other way.

In all fairness to the original poster, I think you should refrain from the Protestant dribble. It is going to fall on deaf ears, and it really is garbage. No magic incantation is going to save anybody, for even Christ emphasizes that the hypocrites will be cast out in the judgment. Your sinner's prayer garbage isn't even consistent with your own scriptures; it is a tradition of men.

So, on behalf of many of us, I ask you to go recruit or "evangelize" elsewhere.

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
Well how about if we "pretend" that in the 6th century AD the leaders of various christian-judaic"cults" came together and looked over the vast collections of teachings that had developed in the 500 or so years since the passing of Yeshua.

We could also pretend that all of human history is a sham, that the Earth is flat, and that bigfoot exists. I suppose that this is a conspiracy forum, so this is the place to do it.

You assertions are a bit unfair, because they ignore a vast amount of history. There are many writings and traditions from the five centuries before you claim the conspiracy. Have there been some who have used it to control the masses? Yes. Have there been some who have genuinely lived good and pure, who inspire and command respect by their selfless actions? Yes.

In all fairness, you will find this anywhere. So, it seems that you are venting anger than looking at the facts. Just my opinion though.

No no no you misunderstand me, I fully accept that such corruption of intent and useage of holy scripture extends through all the major religions as they exist today, I was merely using this particular example to show why the bible as the topic of discussion is not something which can be trusted at face value.