So I'm an agnostic/atheist. Prove to me why the bible isn't just a tool.

Alright everyone, So This is a post just to see why, people are so religious. I say I'm agnostic/atheist cause I believe in one thing, which would be reincarnation. Other than that I find it hard to believe in a god, or heaven and hell.

I don't say its wrong to be religious, most of my friends are religious and I respect em for their beliefs, i don't tell em what they believe in is wrong, But I just can't seem to agree with em, which they really don't like the fact that I am not religious.

So I want anybody and everybody here to tell me why should I believe in the bible when it was written by man.
There may have been a jesus christ, yes I do think that he existed, and I believe he was a very good person who had good intentions for the world to be a better place.

Why is it that because I don't believe in a Lord that it makes me a bad person, I'd like to believe i'm a very good natured person, I go outta my way for others, I'll help out when I see somebody struggling with something, hell, I even give out 5$ to homeless people if I happen to have the cash on me.

But because I don't believe in a book it makes me a bad person? I've gotten schooled how the bible is right, and there is no way it can possibly be wrong in any means.

Its ridiculous,
Say there is a God.
and there is a heaven and hell, what does that mean for me,
I'm screwed because I didn't abide by a book?

You see, to me, Religion since the beginning of time, is just to control society into believing if they do things that are wrong that they'll be punished after death. That if they don't worship this book and 'god' that they will be tortured for all eternity. Correct me if I'm wrong, I have read 0 of the bible, and don't intend to start. Though I'm sure there are some interesting stories in it.

So here's the end, Tell me that the bible isn't a tool to control people, would life be the same if it weren't around, would it be full of chaos if a heaven and hell didn't exist?
People aren't so terrible that they'd have to right a book of morals to control em do they?

Go ahead and try to lecture me, about how I'm wrong.
Do me a favor and don't use any reference to the bible because to me its mostly just a bunch of made up stuff.

I'm an atheist, but clearly you are not or you would have already went ahead and proven that to yourself (Bible being a tool). At the very least you are agnostic but likely you're leaning to the possibility of there in fact being some sort of higher power since you went to the trouble of typing all of this out.

I think perhaps you're going about your personal journey in a not so productive way, by trying to rattle others to gain some kind of self affirmation that you're correct or have a greater understanding than those you're taking aim at. Instead you should go ahead and do more looking within yourself, maybe investigate various outside sources that would assist your understanding; historical and comparative theology guided me a great deal in my own realizations.

Originally posted by ANoNyMiKE
I'm an atheist, but clearly you are not or you would have already went ahead and proven that to yourself (Bible being a tool). At the very least you are agnostic but likely you're leaning to the possibility of there in fact being some sort of higher power since you went to the trouble of typing all of this out.

I think perhaps you're going about your personal journey in a not so productive way, by trying to rattle others to gain some kind of self affirmation that you're correct or have a greater understanding than those you're taking aim at. Instead you should go ahead and do more looking within yourself, maybe investigate various outside sources that would assist your understanding; historical and comparative theology guided me a great deal in my own realizations.

Mmm what I'm trying to get outta this is seeing why people believe in the bible n all. I have never, nor will believe in a god, heaven or hell. The most I will believe is an sort of afterlife (ghosts, and reincarnation) Because I've witnessed too much not to.

reply to post by vitalmune


ummm . . . what is the point of trying to persuade an obstinate person into believing something?

Sounds like you're simply looking for others to reinforce your beliefs.

Originally posted by JPhish
reply to post by vitalmune

 

ummm . . . what is the point of trying to persuade an obstinate person into believing something?

Sounds like you're simply looking for others to reinforce your beliefs.

I'm just curious if anybody can give me a decent chat/arguement about how I'm wrong, I would love someone to come up with an explanation that just bewildered me and changed my entire perspective on things, but it hasn't happened. I've had religious debates with several people. I just would like to have some better ideas of why hundreds of billions of people believe in the bible n all, when sometimes it seems like they just do it because everyone else is.

If anybody at all can give me a good fight for this by all means go right on ahead, I'm not reinforcing my beliefs as you put it, I'm simply questioning others beliefs, not in a bad sorta 'why do you believe in such nonsense' but outta curiosity and pure fun.

Who says you're a bad person?? Religious types, because you don't believe in the Bible??? I think picking one set of beliefs and trying to suit it to millions of different personalities is a dangerous thing - as you can see from the violent history religion has succumbed to..

But when you get down to the bare beginnings of all religion, it's essence is about showing kindness, compassion. Seriously, the laws of karma are not going to smite you because you don't believe the generally accepted version of spirituality and enlightenment - if a million people believe in a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. Unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality.

Look, in my opinion, man has certainly not been exposed to its full spiritual potential and therefore can only make sense of things with the knowledge that they have now. Our minds can be easily corrupted and manipulated and have been and continue to be.. Searching for something more should be an individual journey, not a life-long list of regulations to abide by, written up by the minds of men... I agree that religion has become a means to control and even manipulate the masses.

You don't have to believe in any scripture to simply be a better person. It takes a lot of work, time and patience, and many lifetimes in this physical existence to reach that place of enlightenment.

reply to post by vitalmune

Originally posted by vitalmune
...a post just to see why, people are so religious...
...Tell me that the bible isn't a tool to control people...

I have remained religious because I do not think the purpose of it is to condemn me to Hell.
When I read the Bible I notice things like Jesus saying, "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.”
And Paul saying, "Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this-- not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way."
Jesus found people who were not allowed to enter the Temple (because the authorities believed that their afflictions were a sign of God's condemnation) and healed them and told them to go to the Temple rulers, to be approved.
Men create the problems that religion have, and God has to continually work to fix those problems.

Originally posted by vitalmune
I'm just curious if anybody can give me a decent chat/arguement about how I'm wrong,

What exactly do you believe you’re right about?

I would love someone to come up with an explanation that just bewildered me and changed my entire perspective on things, but it hasn't happened.

There is a first time for everything. I’ll try my best

I've had religious debates with several people. I just would like to have some better ideas of why hundreds of billions of people believe in the bible n all, when sometimes it seems like they just do it because everyone else is.

Many people are religious just because others are.

If anybody at all can give me a good fight for this by all means go right on ahead, I'm not reinforcing my beliefs as you put it, I'm simply questioning others beliefs, not in a bad sorta 'why do you believe in such nonsense' but outta curiosity and pure fun.

I’m certainly up for debating the subject, and i’m sorry my first impression of your intentions was incorrect.

reply to post by pretty_vacant

Good points Vacant


[edit on 8/11/2008 by JPhish]

The Bible is a tool. A very helpful one that I try to use every day. It tells me how to love, why I should hope, and how to use faith to make the right decisions. I've used the advice given many times. Often I've done things on the mere trust that the information provided was correct and was delightfully suprised that indeed it was. For those wishing to test the tool, by all means do so. It says to "love your neighbor". Try that out for a week. If it works, continue to do so and try "do undo others as you would have done unto you". By the time you get to "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you", you may find yourself wondering what life would be like without this most frequently used tool in your toolbox.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
The Bible is a tool. A very helpful one that I try to use every day. It tells me how to love, why I should hope, and how to use faith to make the right decisions. I've used the advice given many times. Often I've done things on the mere trust that the information provided was correct and was delightfully suprised that indeed it was. For those wishing to test the tool, by all means do so. It says to "love your neighbor". Try that out for a week. If it works, continue to do so and try "do undo others as you would have done unto you". By the time you get to "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you", you may find yourself wondering what life would be like without this most frequently used tool in your toolbox.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by saint4God]

But surely anyone can live by those ideas or morals, and have it work for them, without relying on, or attributing it to god.

I often see people make arguments that god/religion shows them how to lead a moral life etc, which implies the opposite.... 'if youre not religious youre clearly evil, and/or have no morals'. (Im not saying this is the case here by any means).

I live quite happily, I try to treat people with respect and equality. I try to treat others how id like to be treated in return. I help where I can, sympathise for others in need etc. All the kinds of things are shown or taught in a lot of religions.

But I dont live that way because its what god wants. I live that was because im not an absolute bastard.

You dont NEED religion to live a good life, or be told how you need to go about it. common sence and decency should be enough of a guide. Theres no big secret in the bible for day to day happyness, that those poor unfortunate athiests miss out on.

Originally posted by HeHasNoName
But surely anyone can live by those ideas or morals, and have it work for them, without relying on, or attributing it to god.

Just like anyone can eat at a soup kitchen without saying 'thanks' to the server.

Originally posted by HeHasNoName
I often see people make arguments that god/religion shows them how to lead a moral life etc, which implies the opposite.... 'if youre not religious youre clearly evil, and/or have no morals'. (Im not saying this is the case here by any means).

Everybody is a sinner. This is a core principle to being Christian. If they're missing this point, they've got some serious knee-mail to answer.

Originally posted by HeHasNoName
I live quite happily, I try to treat people with respect and equality.

This would be interesting to see tested. Consciously or subconsciously we are disrespectful and unequal to others. It's a constant battle to try to overcome. If that battle isn't apparent, then we're not seeing the whole picture of everyone in our lives. Just because someone isn't slapping you in the face doesn't mean everyone is fine.

Originally posted by HeHasNoName
I try to treat others how id like to be treated in return.

This Biblical principle sounds familiar, glad you've incorporated it.

Originally posted by HeHasNoName
I help where I can, sympathise for others in need etc. All the kinds of things are shown or taught in a lot of religions.

Is this where we're expected to applaud?

Originally posted by HeHasNoName
But I dont live that way because its what god wants. I live that was because im not an absolute bastard.

An interesting motivation.

Originally posted by HeHasNoName
You dont NEED religion to live a good life, or be told how you need to go about it. common sence and decency should be enough of a guide.

Common sense and decency, to apparent surprise, are central to the guide itself. I'd quote it but am confident it'd be unwelcomed.

Originally posted by HeHasNoName
Theres no big secret in the bible for day to day happyness, that those poor unfortunate athiests miss out on.

Although it is not a secret, as a person who was very unhappy I can now say that I am happy and fulfilled post-Christ in my life.

You must be joking, are you so arrogant that you think that people who do good things only mean to do good things if the are motivated by you invisble friend god? Come on im all respecting peoples faith and ideas, but thats just so unbelievable arrogant that i have i give you a verbal knock on the head.

reply to post by HeHasNoName

All the kinds of things are shown or taught in a lot of religions.

At least 2/3rds of religions believe in a God and that one of the requirements of those religions is to love God.
Being an atheist does not meet that requirement.
I happen to believe in the same God that Jesus believed in.
Even a lot of Christians (so-called) do not follow what God demands from us as a demonstration of that love and much less, an atheist.
If you are satisfied with your current condition, God will oblige you and walk away.
I do not wish that same fate for myself, so I seek understanding of what God demands of me.
A rebellious spirit puts you into the camp of Satan.
At some future date, God will do away with Satan, along with his followers.
I would like to get a pass on that experience.
I hope you look for that pass too because I do not wish an evil thing on you.

Originally posted by vitalmune
So I want anybody and everybody here to tell me why should I believe in the bible when it was written by man.

Ok, I will bite. And I will try to avoid flamebait.

Because either part of you wants to believe it, or part of you is afraid that it might be true. But it is a very uncomfortable and compromising place to be in where one would be a liar and a hypocrite to just give up and "believe."

In "The Bible," Christ says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." and "but you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you." If you read the words and do not recognize the voice, then you are not His. It is at least honorable that you are not being a hypocrite and lying about it.

Where I come from, nobody can honestly repent and receive forgiveness without confessing their sins; and I am not talking about most... I mean everything that he/she has ever done wrong before at least one living, breathing soul. Even for a 20 year-old, this is a lot. I can't imagine how it is for a 60 year-old. I am sure that the Pareto principle applies here, but that last bit is really hard.

Even for an atheist, I imagine this would be a difficult thing. If you did this thing, I suggest that you might find yourself responding to truth that you otherwise would be blind to, because denial is a natural barrier to recognizing the truth. But I doubt anyone will be able to present you with a logical argument that will satisfy your reasoning. Some things must just be experienced.

I find hope in reading the Bible. That is more than anything else that this world has to offer. I believe in Jesus and God because they give me hope. I tend to believe that it is a win-win situation to believe in Jesus. Believing in Jesus at least gives me hope in this lifetime even if he isn't true. If he is true though, then not only do I have hope in this lifetime but I also have hope in the afterlife. The Bible is a story about hope and love. I don't see anything wrong with that.

John 3:16:
16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."


[edit on 15-8-2008 by checkers]

Originally posted by checkers
I find hope in reading the Bible... Believing in Jesus at least gives me hope in this lifetime even if he isn't true.

But doesn't that feel dishonest to you? I am not judging you, only asking because it would feel dishonest to me, and I would feel dishonest... as if I were compromising and pretending.

We cant prove something like this to you when its obvious that the book in question is there as a way to control the masses, whether it also has useful spiritual truths within it is something you will have to decide for yourself as you undertake your journey through life.

Its good to know that it is a method of control, now you can avoid the trap, can you get the treasure at the same time though ? That is your real test.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by HeHasNoName
But surely anyone can live by those ideas or morals, and have it work for them, without relying on, or attributing it to god.

Just like anyone can eat at a soup kitchen without saying 'thanks' to the server.

At least you get to see the server and know that they're real. You don't need faith to believe in the server.

Originally posted by HeHasNoName
I often see people make arguments that god/religion shows them how to lead a moral life etc, which implies the opposite.... 'if youre not religious youre clearly evil, and/or have no morals'. (Im not saying this is the case here by any means).

Everybody is a sinner. This is a core principle to being Christian. If they're missing this point, they've got some serious knee-mail to answer.

If they're missing this point then they're not christians which is a bit like most so called christians.

Originally posted by HeHasNoName
I try to treat others how id like to be treated in return.

This Biblical principle sounds familiar, glad you've incorporated it.

It may be a biblical principle but it doesn't belong to the bible. The bible doesn't have a monopoly on morals and ethics, these weren't invented by the bible as its own codes and rules.

Originally posted by HeHasNoName
Theres no big secret in the bible for day to day happyness, that those poor unfortunate athiests miss out on.

Although it is not a secret, as a person who was very unhappy I can now say that I am happy and fulfilled post-Christ in my life.

I'm just as happy in my christless/godless life so your statement only applies to you just as mine to me and is in a sense meaningless


G

Originally posted by saint4God
Just like anyone can eat at a soup kitchen without saying 'thanks' to the server.

So youre saying that the reason i have morals, or any non religious person has morals, really IS because of god, but we just refuse to acknowledge it?

Everybody is a sinner. This is a core principle to being Christian. If they're missing this point, they've got some serious knee-mail to answer.

Well this is one of the core reasons i disagree with christianity. Original sin. Because i was born im instantly a sinner. Im sure the bible makes some attempt at justifying this, but i find it insane.
I have no real issues with 'sin' as such, everyone does something 'wrong' on some level at some times. And im happy enough to admit ive 'sinned'. But to be a sinner having absolutely no say in the matter..... just for being born....

This would be interesting to see tested. Consciously or subconsciously we are disrespectful and unequal to others. It's a constant battle to try to overcome. If that battle isn't apparent, then we're not seeing the whole picture of everyone in our lives. Just because someone isn't slapping you in the face doesn't mean everyone is fine.

Thats why i used the word 'try'. I do my best.

This Biblical principle sounds familiar, glad you've incorporated it.

The bible didnt invent decency.

Is this where we're expected to applaud?

Not asking for applause. Just pointing out that all those morals that people think you cant have without religion, can be had without religion.

An interesting motivation.

Theres no 'motivation' there. 'Motivation' would be a case of following rules x y and z because if i dont ill burn in hell. While you may require a threat of eternal punishment not to be a bastard, not being a bastard just comes naturally for me.

Common sense and decency, to apparent surprise, are central to the guide itself. I'd quote it but am confident it'd be unwelcomed.

Im sure it is, but again, like the 'treat others as youd be treated thing', its a case of obvious general morals, incorporated into religion, not the other way around.

Although it is not a secret, as a person who was very unhappy I can now say that I am happy and fulfilled post-Christ in my life.

Good for you. If finding christ has made you happy thats great.

Not all of us need christ, or allah, or budda, or anyone/thing to feel that way. We dont need god to feel happy, or to live 'right'.

And that was my entire point.

The only proof that you need that the Bible is not a tool is in the Bible itself. It is profitable for doctrine, reproof, and correction. God said it in the Bible and that is proof enough. All you have to do is say the sinner's prayer and he will forgive you of your heathen views. The Bible is not a tool, it is a way of life and you would know that and believe it if you would read it and ask for the Holy Spirit to come and guide you in wisdom and truth to show you the Bible's authenticity.

You can only understand and believe it by reading it. Once you do, you will see that it is the lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. But again, you will only believe it and see the proof when you read it. There is no other way.