Take the Zeitgeist Challenge

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Sorry my friend, you didn't read the links. Look at the time of this post above compared to the time I linked the pages you were to read to answer your Qs.

I'm not going to bother researching the answer to your Qs if you aren't going to look at the information I present.

I'm not wasting your time, please don't do that to me.

sorry my friend, i was responding to what you said and not the links. i am sorry that my words in english confuse you so much. perhaps if they are translated several times and rewritten over again for a few thousand years they will be more clear. i am getting to the links but i fail to see how it means i cannot respond to your actual words first.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
LOL!! Aren't you sweet!

Depends on who you ask.

I'm not here to socialize and play nicey nice with people. I'm here to do battle with people who tout shoddy research and "what if" scenarios as facts.

Originally posted by re22666

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

He made that statement in ignorance. He's not aware that people were writing about the gospels long before 300 A.D.

I can't answer for his ignorance to that fact. Sorry.

then answer for general ignorance. if what you say is the be all/end all of it. why is there any debate at all. why would so many suffer the same dellusion as him? that is what i asked.

Because my friend, "proof is relative". I cannot stress this enough.

If someone doesn't want to believe something he can be shown and endless amount of information and he still won't recant his position.

Clearly secular writers have discussed the Gospels long before 300 A.D.

Yet the claim remains to this day. Go figure.

Ok, I'll bite. One question, Joseph of Arimethea,where the hell is Arimethea, it does not appear on any ancient map? It has never been identified as a place that ever even existed. Prove me wrong.

Originally posted by re22666

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Sorry my friend, you didn't read the links. Look at the time of this post above compared to the time I linked the pages you were to read to answer your Qs.

I'm not going to bother researching the answer to your Qs if you aren't going to look at the information I present.

I'm not wasting your time, please don't do that to me.

sorry my friend, i was responding to what you said and not the links. i am sorry that my words in english confuse you so much. perhaps if they are translated several times and rewritten over again for a few thousand years they will be more clear. i am getting to the links but i fail to see how it means i cannot respond to your actual words first.

You asked about the KJV, and how we know it's the most accurate. And you also asked this:

you can tell me with certainty that none of the people copying it changed anything? so the bible was never edited to suit the person putting that version out?

So I also linked a page discussing the perversions of the Bible we have floating around today.

I linked answers to both your Qs. You posted your rebuttal 5 minutes after I linked the pages. That 5 minutes includes the 3 or so minutes it took to type your rebuttal.

I don't consider it forthright to ask me a Q, then not read the answer I research and link for you.

Originally posted by spookjr
Ok, I'll bite. One question, Joseph of Arimethea,where the hell is Arimethea, it does not appear on any ancient map? It has never been identified as a place that ever even existed. Prove me wrong.

I dunno actually.

I found this, seems there is debate to the actual location.

Luke locates Arimathea in Judea, but aside from the association with Joseph, there is no solid information about where it was and what might have happened there. Some scholars have identified Arimathea with Ramathaim-Zophim in Ephraim, the place where Samuel was born. Other scholars say that Arimathea is Ramleh.

atheism.about.com...

WHAT THE HELL DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE AUTHENTICATION OF ANY OF THE CLAIMS IN THE ZEITGEIST FILM. I WANT MY 200 BUCK BTW. MODS, THIS DEBATE WILL GO ON UNTILL JESUS RETURNS AND IS VERY OFF TOPIC......

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
So I also linked a page discussing the perversions of the Bible we have floating around today.

I linked answers to both your Qs. You posted your rebuttal 5 minutes after I linked the pages. That 5 minutes includes the 3 or so minutes it took to type your rebuttal.

I don't consider it forthright to ask me a Q, then not read the answer I research and link for you.

because you missed the point of my question. how do you know any of that is true. this is my point. comparing these old texts to eyewitness accounts in order to prove the bible in opposition to the movie (see how this all relates) is false. you can post all the links that you like, that does not tell me how you can definitively state that you know that what you are reading is the direct account from people who accurately wrote down what jesus did.

Is The Vatican part of Christianity?

Why won't they disclose all the documents they have to the world so we can truly have all available sources?

Or at least disclose them for public scrutiny and give access to scholars.

If the Vatican has nothing to do with Christianity then excuse my ignorance.

If it is, then how can you validate anything if only certain few possess what I would Imagine to be the most relevant sources of all?

Originally posted by re22666

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
So I also linked a page discussing the perversions of the Bible we have floating around today.

I linked answers to both your Qs. You posted your rebuttal 5 minutes after I linked the pages. That 5 minutes includes the 3 or so minutes it took to type your rebuttal.

I don't consider it forthright to ask me a Q, then not read the answer I research and link for you.

because you missed the point of my question. how do you know any of that is true. this is my point. comparing these old texts to eyewitness accounts in order to prove the bible in opposition to the movie (see how this all relates) is false. you can post all the links that you like, that does not tell me how you can definitively state that you know that what you are reading is the direct account from people who accurately wrote down what jesus did.

Are you willing to wager your eternal soul on the possibility they were liars? Time on Earth is at best 70-80 years. Eternity, is well, ETERNITY.

That is like Bill Gates trading his fortune for a quarter.

I myself don't see these men as liars. Especially considering the udder persecution they endured while on Earth for their "lie". You honestly think these men continued to hold true to this "lie" in the face of death? I see that as HIGHLY illogical, no man would do such a thing unless he knew the truth, unless he saw the messiah raised from the dead, unless they saw the miracles firsthand and knew their fate would only be temporary.

I cannot convert you, but Christ is love, I can barely fathom that God would make himself flesh, and endure a horrible death all for me. That is true agape love. There are no tests, no hoops to go through, not exams, no paperwork, the only thing he asks of me is to recieve that death on the cross as payment for the debt I owe for being a sinner.

Where do I sign up???

Originally posted by GodshipForAll
Is The Vatican part of Christianity?

Why won't they disclose all the documents they have to the world so we can truly have all available sources?

Or at least disclose them for public scrutiny and give access to scholars.

If the Vatican has nothing to do with Christianity then excuse my ignorance.

If it is, then how can you validate anything if only certain few possess what I would Imagine to be the most relevant sources of all?

They claim they are, but they are just like the Pharisees. And even high up bishops claim that the inner circle worships Satan. The proudly display the mark of Saturn, they have statues of "Jesus" and Mary strictly against God's orders, they claim the Pope is even with God, they claim the church can cancel out sin in direct violation of scripture.

Answer: Catholicism and Biblical Christianity are divergent religions. They are built on different foundations, and they propose different ways of salvation.

In principle, Christianity is built solely on the Holy Scriptures, the written Word of God. The Bible is our only infallible rule of faith, being sufficient to give us the sure knowledge of the Gospel for our salvation and holiness.

Roman Catholicism demands submission of the intellect and will to the doctrines taught by the Roman magisterium (the Pope and bishops). It is claimed that the Catholic Church derives its doctrines from the "sacred deposit" found in Scriptures and Sacred Tradition. However the faithful cannot verify these doctrines by referring to the original sources. The Scriptures are inaccessible because only the magisterium is able to establish the authentic meaning. Similarly the contents of Sacred Tradition can only be known through the magisterium. Roman Catholicism is mental and spiritual slavery to the Vatican.

www.justforcatholics.org...

Originally posted by NOTurTypical


Are you willing to wager your eternal soul on the possibility they were liars? Time on Earth is at best 70-80 years. Eternity, is well, ETERNITY.

That is like Bill Gates trading his fortune for a quarter.

I myself don't see these men as liars. Especially considering the udder persecution they endured while on Earth for their "lie". You honestly think these men continued to hold true to this "lie" in the face of death? I see that as HIGHLY illogical, no man would do such a thing unless he knew the truth, unless he saw the messiah raised from the dead, unless they saw the miracles firsthand and knew their fate would only be temporary.

I cannot convert you, but Christ is love, I can barely fathom that God would make himself flesh, and endure a horrible death all for me. That is true agape love. There are no tests, no hoops to go through, not exams, no paperwork, the only thing he asks of me is to recieve that death on the cross as payment for the debt I owe for being a sinner.

Where do I sign up???

see, how do i know they faced any persecution. for all i know it was a gaggle of drunks that thought this would be really funny and every little bit is a lie. i mean if you are going to make up a guy that walks on water, why not make up how much you suffered for telling his tale. you buy the whole thing. thats cool. i buy NONE of it. so you cannot use parts to justify other parts. that does not work. why would i be willing to bet my eternal soul that they are liars. well because i do not think that we even have a fair representation of the original lie anyway. so even if they were not liars, what you call the bible, most certainly is. have you never played telephone as a kid? do you not know how just telling a story between three people in the same language can morph into something entirely new? why put any faith in something passed through this many hands? because it makes sense? no. because it is just so logical? no. because history backs it up? no. i am running out of reasons to believe this bible of yours. maybe you can help without just stating blindly that it is true because it was only translated once and passed straight from eyewitnesses. we know that part is false anyway.

I said New Testament books written in Greek was translated once to English. The OT is kinda looked at for historical purposes, the NT tells us how to walk in the path of Jesus Christ. The savior. I knew it's real because it has changed my life my friend. I know who I was before accepting Christ, I also know who I am now. I also know that countless prayers have been answered.

Just the same reasons I believe in radio waves, or gravity. I can't see both of those things, but I can see their effects so I know they are real. I can't see Jesus Christ, but I see his effects on my life everyday. It's a wonderful feeling to know you are free, to know with certainty when I die I'm saved from the penalty I owe God. I can clearly see that if every man woman and child followed the 10 commandments to a T then life on this Earth would be perfect, no murder, no STDs, not theft, no liars. I only see that these ills have affected us by people trying to do it their way instead of Gods way.

I can see the amazing reality around me, the perfect distance from the sun the Earth is, the perfect harmony of the animal world's food chain, I can see the effects of a loving God everywhere. To me that is real. To me that is absolute agape love. Ask ANY Chrstian, our relationship with God is wonderful, it isn't "slavery" or "shackles" as some claim.

Look at the fossil record and ask yourself logically, if evolution were indeed true there should be countless examples of intermediate species fossils. There are not, all the fossil record shows is at one point multicellular organisms sprung up out of nothing. You see petrified timbers of wood extending into several layers of sedimentary rock. That is evidence of a flood, not evolution.

I'm off tract a bit and we can discuss that another time, but I can for sure tell you that Christ has changed my life for the better and I'll NEVER go back. It's amazing.

reply to post by NOTurTypical



but everything you just said would be just as good had you said quaran, torah, satanic bible, the secret, how to win friends and influence people, etc... nothing of what you said actually shows the bible having any more credibility to anything else. i look around every day and witness the miracle of blah blah blah.
as far as the fossil record goes, that is just deflection, my friend. why even bring it up. all that does is illustrate that there is one hole in that theory.
wow, thank god there is less than one hole in the bible stories right?
if you want to compare things that cannot be proven %100 fine. lets stack up the things about evolution that render it unbelievable against the same from the bible.

reply to post by re22666


You have clearly demonstrated that you are not interested in the truth. You only want answers that support your own anti-christian prejudices. If an eyewitness account were presented to you, you would still try to argue the same crap that you keep regurgitating over and over again.

By your logic, NO history book in existence has any validity. For example, how do we know if George Washington really existed?
The answer is...we don't. All we know is what the history books say.

Same thing with the Biblical texts. Not that it really matters though. It is obvious you don't want to learn. You just want to argue.

Originally posted by Lightmare
reply to post by re22666

 

You have clearly demonstrated that you are not interested in the truth. You only want answers that support your own anti-christian prejudices. If an eyewitness account were presented to you, you would still try to argue the same crap that you keep regurgitating over and over again.

By your logic, NO history book in existence has any validity. For example, how do we know if George Washington really existed?
The answer is...we don't. All we know is what the history books say.

Same thing with the Biblical texts. Not that it really matters though. It is obvious you don't want to learn. You just want to argue.

you are so wrong. but thanks for assuming so much. i see that is a common trait among christians on this site. yes, by my logic all history books are false. all the ones that lead to one vague supply of sources. every history book that cannot be independantly verified by say...another historian or recordkeeper of the tme, and its very own roots are not verifiable is worthless. fortunately, most can be backed up by supporting histories from many other sources and mesh with both logic and reality. the bible unfortunately does not. if an eyewitness to jesus miracles and the many other unbelievalbe and contradictory events of the bible were to show up, that might be different. that is a hypothetical that will never happen so it is a safe bet for you to make. i however am more open minded than you think. i just have a hard time buying the bible as eyewitness account when if i told you i had a story that some guy told some guy and then some other guy wrote it down. then for 2000 years other people copied it and translated it until it was what i have now and it describes how the flying spaghetti monster created all life...would you not be a bit skeptical of my source materials and their qualification as eyewitness reports?

i think the term "pagan" needs to be more carefully defined. it's been a catch all term that was historically applied hy the RCC to those that disagreed with their "only one god" theories, which have no historical basis in fact. the truth is, from what my research seems to indicate, somewhere inbetween.

zeitgeist bases alot of its ideas on the research of acharya s., who takes the easy way out by claiming that ANY similarity is evidence of familarity. because your neighbor mows his yard, same as you, doesn't mean you know each other or worship lawn mowers.



[edit on 10-8-2008 by undo]

edit to remove my post here and combine it with my post above.



[edit on 10-8-2008 by undo]

Originally posted by spookjr
Ok, I'll bite. One question, Joseph of Arimethea,where the hell is Arimethea, it does not appear on any ancient map? It has never been identified as a place that ever even existed. Prove me wrong.

Arimathea is Rathamin (Ramathaim-Zophim). you can see it on this map, about four cities up from the word JUDEA
www.bible-history.com...


[edit on 10-8-2008 by undo]

Originally posted by re22666
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

but everything you just said would be just as good had you said quaran, torah, satanic bible, the secret, how to win friends and influence people, etc... nothing of what you said actually shows the bible having any more credibility to anything else. i look around every day and witness the miracle of blah blah blah.
as far as the fossil record goes, that is just deflection, my friend. why even bring it up. all that does is illustrate that there is one hole in that theory.
wow, thank god there is less than one hole in the bible stories right?
if you want to compare things that cannot be proven %100 fine. lets stack up the things about evolution that render it unbelievable against the same from the bible.

"Seek me and you shall find". Jesus tells us that we can only find Him if we seek Him, if we search FOR Him. He doesn't say that "I'll provide you with undeniable proof, or that I will prove to you with absolute certainty that no man can possibly deny". Then no one could deny God than they could deny the moon in the sky. Then finding him would take ZERO faith on our part whatsoever would it? Then God is no different than an apple, or a tree. Those things are reality to all, even the blind man.

God remains hidden, thats so only those who want to find Him will, that is so our salvation is PROACTIVE, not reactive. Your version of things requires absolute proof to believe in God. Well, think logically, if that were the case then there would no longer be "belief" or "faith".

If you want to find God, you must first seek him out. It takes you initiating the reconciliation between man and God. Not the other way around.