War in Georgia

These Ruskies basically split the country in two parts. And believe me when I say this is far from over. I wouldn't be surprised if we hear in a couple of hours or a couple of days the fighting has once again started.

Yet, the Russian still haven't been able to back up their claim that Georgia committed a genocide.

Oh... and what kind of ''peacekeeping'' purpose has writing on missiles and bombs 'this is for NATO'?

Cut the crap, Russians have never been peacekeepers and never will be.

Of course this is not over.

NATO is now playing hard ball. Fighting is still on going, both sides are confirming reports of fighting.

Russia is not planning on removing their troops either.

Sarkozy has Russia agreeing to a withdrawal to pre-war lines.

It is interesting how Russia is willing to listen to the European Union and not the United States, UN or NATO.

Originally posted by infinite
It is interesting how Russia is willing to listen to the European Union and not the United States, UN or NATO.

Hardly surprising, listening to the others gices teh impression they might be tellling Russia what to do. Privately I am sure Putin and Medvedev are listening intently to what NATo and the US are saying.

Originally posted by infinite
It is interesting how Russia is willing to listen to the European Union and not the United States, UN or NATO.

It certainly is. Although it is clear that Russia has better relations with the EU than with the US and NATO - which is self-evidently related to cold war frustrations.

I pray for us that we will soon find an alternative for oil, otherwise we could end up in a pretty nasty position here in Europe.

Forgive me if I am wrong, infinite, but I think I remember you were against one European military when I started a thread about this, do you still feel like that or do you agree the need for one military only grows?

Originally posted by Mdv2
Forgive me if I am wrong, infinite, but I think I remember you were against one European military when I started a thread about this, do you still feel like that or do you agree the need for one military only grows?

I am still against a single European army. Europe isn't ready to become more federalised. Of course, Russia wants a single European defence force because it will undercut and reduce the power of NATO.

Regardless of what I think, Europe will get a single defence pact in the near future. The EU does not care what the citizens of Europe think.

Originally posted by StellarX
reply to post by rogue1

 

It wouldn't be the first time that such a thing happened but some evidence would go some way towards proving it.

Stellar

I read this is why Russia invaded Georgia, what do you think Stell?

1. judicial-inc.biz...

2. www.globalresearch.ca...

[edit on 12-8-2008 by Lambo Rider]

Originally posted by maloy

I have access to Russian television news, and a live satellite feed of CNN, BBC, Fox, MSNBC, and CBS at home (yes Putin doesn't sit near my custom sat dish and block the signals from the West like some of you may think). The news feeds are very very different between Russian channels and Western media - that would be an understatement. I have never seen this much propaganda used by both sides - it is almost frightening. There is simply no middle ground in the press. It's either pro-Russia, or pro-Georgia. What we see happening here is an information war on a larger scale than an actual war. Sort of like what happened when Israel intervened in Lebanon, but on a larger scale.

I admit that Russian news are full of their own propaganda and are totally biased. However at least they bring up some factual stuff, and have been monitoring the conditions in S. Ossetia longer than any Western source (back from July). By the way Russian news report everything coming from Georgian Info Ministry - but they rather make fun of the reports than treat them as definitively factual.

Western media appears to have a single voice today. A voice that mirrors the reports of the Georgian government and its American masters. Never before have I seen such a troubling phenomenon in the Western media. The story is told from one point of view - and so are the facts. Everything else is brushed off entirely, or mentioned as a side note. Almost no mention of how this started - when Georgia killed over a thousand innocent civilians in Tskhinvalli. THAT IS OVER ONE THOUSAND. LET ME REITTERATE THAT AGAIN - OVER 3% OF S. OSSETIAN POPULATION WAS KILLED IN ONE SINGLE DAY - BY GEORGIAN ARMY - BY SAAKASHVILLI.

Well i have accsess to Russian Media Channels to(like you said, also George doesn't sit near my custom sat dish and block the signals from the West like some of you may think). But I havent seen any 1000 dead people in S.Osetia. Only thing that Russian Media is showing is refuges, military personels and veichles.
I havent seen yet an one single Osetian in Russian Media that has been wounded in gunfire. Every one of them says that bullets was flying next to them,but nothing more!!!
I can understandyour an patirot of your country,but be real.Your Goverment has eradicated Cechnya, and there was no sound of Independent respublic of Ickeria from Yelcin, or Putin!!!
So why the f****k know your Goverment is helping a small nummber of seperatist in suvereign country!!
LET ME GUES???MAYBE A PIPELINE ??? Your goverment already destroyed it, but I dont see how can it attack S.Osetia.

And now you have blood of inocent peoples on your hand!!!An Netherland journalist have been killed today in bombing in Gori,after Medvedew called an casefire!!!!!
So please dont tell me that Russian Federation care about S.Osetia, and that they are liberators!!!Our country have seen those liberators 60 Years ago and it seems that nothing have changed!
So please wake up!!!!





[edit on 12-8-2008 by swesais]

[edit on 12-8-2008 by swesais]

reply to post by maloy


please watch this its 7years old, same people, same place & the same reason,,

uk.youtube.com...

the game was disined in the u.s. & so was the war

British Petroleum (BP) CEO and his "harassment" in Russia.
Claims he left Russia. Article Date: July 25th 2008
Who was the instigator for this war?
Timing is suspect.

BP CEO Leaves Russia; BP Warns Of Suit : July 25 2008

BP PLC (BP.LN) said Thursday that TNK-BP Ltd. Chief Executive Robert Dudley has temporarily left Russia, saying he was subjected to "harassment" by Russian authorities, prompting the oil giant to threaten legal action against its Russian partners.

The news is the latest escalation in the conflict between BP and its Russian partners Alfa-Access-Renova, or AAR, which each own half of the company. AAR has called for the dismissal of Dudley, saying he only represents BP's interests. Dudley's work visa wasn't renewed by Russian authorities, but he says his work contract is valid.

In a statement, BP Chief Executive Tony Hayward said the company "will use all means at its disposal, both inside and outside of Russia, to defend its interests and rights as a 50% shareholder in TNK-BP

Fire-damaged BTC oil line could have 5-week shutdown

The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline, damaged Aug. 6 by an explosion and fire, could be shut down for as long as 5 weeks, according to a spokesperson for Botas International Ltd. BIL operates the Turkish part of BTC, where the fire took place.

BP shuts two energy pipelines in Georgia Tue Aug 12, 12:05 PM ET

British energy giant BP said Tuesday that it has closed two more oil and gas pipelines in Georgia because of the ongoing conflict with Russia.
ADVERTISEMENT

"We have closed two other pipelines in Georgia -- Baku-Supsa and the South Caucasus pipeline, which is a gas pipeline," a BP spokesman told AFP.

The key Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) pipeline, which BP also operates, was shut last week after a blast occurred in a pump at a section in eastern Turkey.

Russia's armed forces on Tuesday denied deliberately targeting the strategic BTC conduit running through Georgia after Tbilisi claimed it had been attacked by the Russian air force.

"The oil pipeline was never a target that needed to be bombed," deputy chief of general staff Anatoly Nogovitsyn said in a televised press conference.

He did not explicitly rule out the possibility that the pipeline might have been hit accidentally.

BP was also looking into the claim. "We're not aware of any attack at all. We have no report at all of an attack," a spokeswoman told AFP earlier on Tuesday.

[edited for correction]

[edit for typos]

[edit on 12-8-2008 by spacebot]

Originally posted by spacebot
Fire-damaged BTC oil line could have 5-week shutdown

The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline, damaged Aug. 6 by an explosion and fire, could be shut down for as long as 5 weeks, according to a spokesperson for Botas International Ltd. BIL operates the Turkish part of BTC, where the fire took place.

Could this be the reason Bush stated that this conflict started on Aug. 6th? Are we going to be presented with evidence that a Russian backed Southern Ossetia tried to blow up the pipeline and Georgia responded? But reports are that the blast took place in Turkey, so maybe that theory doesn't work so well.



www.google.com... hSI_OLZKUsAONzrSADw&usg=AFQjCNHobkPCLIZm2Vl_jsmPHGuTFZUPSg&sig2=3RN9WU5RZGf6OQZZAXGm2Q

I'm watching clips from the rally earlier in Tbilisi.

Russia isn't going to pleased when it sees all Eastern European Prime Ministers and Presidents present - condemning Russia and promising solidarity with Georgia.

Georgia is concerned about the EU 8 point plan:

The plan contains protection of the state of Georgia but the breakaway provinces will have a separate peace process with the right for self-determination.

Now we know why Russia was so keen to accept the EU package.

An interesting article on the glaringly hypocrital stance of the US admin with regard to Russia's actions in view of own notorious excursions over the years :

TUESDAY 12 AUGUST 2008
Neocons Now Love International Law

It's touching how American neoconservatives, who have no regard for international law when they want to invade some troublesome country, have developed a sudden reverence for national sovereignty.

Apparently, context is everything. So, the United States attacking Grenada or Nicaragua or Panama or Iraq or Serbia is justified even if the reasons sometimes don't hold water or don't hold up before the United Nations, The Hague or other institutions of international law.

However, when Russia attacks Georgia in a border dispute over Georgia's determination to throttle secession movements in two semi-autonomous regions, everyone must agree that Georgia's sovereignty is sacrosanct and Russia must be condemned.

U.S. newspapers, such as the New York Times, see nothing risible about publishing a statement from President George W. Bush declaring that "Georgia is a sovereign nation and its territorial integrity must be respected."

www.truthout.org...

Perhaps this subject and the seeming collusion of western media in an orchestration of fabrications, distortion, and lies across the whole spectrum of main news outlets would be worthy of it's own thread .

Apparently, context is everything

Haven't liberals been saying exactly this for years? Talk about hypocracy.
And BTW Gun Totin Gerbil did you know that Che gueveraa was a sociopathic, murdering, scumbag who even Fidel Castro, a fellow sociopathic, murdering, scumbag, couldnt stand?
Thats why he died in bolivia.

No, not surprising at considering:

A: the EU gets 1/4 of their energy needs from Russia (and Russia therefore gets their money from the EU)

B. The EU is in Russia's backyard, the US is not.

C. France's President actually visited in person for talks.

D. Is it really hard to believe that Russia would rather submit to EU's demands rather than the US's just because? Not really.

I dont see this as hard to believe at all. Just my 2cents.

Originally posted by infinite
It is interesting how Russia is willing to listen to the European Union and not the United States, UN or NATO.

Not to much in the way of updates from Russian sources today.

Very surprisingly most Russian sources are talking not about the conflict, but about the West's accusation against Russia. And the weird thing - they are not denying them - but just reporting them.

The Russian news appear to be saying the same exact thing the West and Georgian news are, but from a slightly ironic view point.

I am just translating the headlines from Russian sources - the content you already heard on Western news:

Leaders of U.S. Congress Accuse Russia
lenta.ru...


McCain Promised to Accept Georgia into NATO
lenta.ru...


International Military Exercises in Which Russia Planned to Participate are to be Canceled by U.S.
www.echo.msk.ru...


The Hague International Court Accepted Georgia's Claims about Russia's Actions in Georgia
www.echo.msk.ru...
www.echo.msk.ru...

Massive Anti-Russian Protest in Tbilisi, with Leaders of Poland, Ukraine and the Baltics
www.echo.msk.ru...



I also seems like Russia is purposely avoiding talk about independence of S. Ossetia and Abkhazia. Even after what happened Russia is not seeking to make them independent. Russia likely realizes that the independence for the two breakaway zones, will mean nothing is holding Georgia back from joining NATO right away.

If Russia still allows Georgia some territorial claim there, it will be a minor disincentive for Georgia to proceed with NATO membership.

As I speculated when I started the War in Georgia thread on August 7th - this is turning out to be all about NATO's expansion around Russia. This will be the major news and development in the coming months.




And I will make a guess about who is next right now - AZERBAIJAN. Carefully watch Azerbaijan in the coming months and years, and its own breakaway region of Nagorno-Karabakh, Suddenly NATO will start negotiating there too - and suddently Nagorno-Karabakh will be on the world's front page news.

Azerbaijan is where the oil pipeline that runs through Georgia originates. As I speculated on ATS as long as a year ago - a quiet battle between U.S. and Russia for political control over Azerbaijan is being waged - parallel to Georgia's. U.S. is leading, as it has the support of the country's dictator (yes - not President).

The Caucasus fire may have been put out once again, but be sure - someone is still putting lighting fluid all over the region. Caucasus will ignite in again, much sooner than we will forget the war in South Ossetia. While the oil flows and NATO makes its plans, you will see blood in the Caspian geo-political region.

You know who to thank for that.

reply to post by princeofpeace


You are correct - Russia feels more politically close to Europe than to U.S., and is rather willing to negotiate through Europe. That is not to say Russia or Medvedev likes Sarkozy much. Russian relations with Chirac were much better, and Sarkozy is more conservative in leaning towards the U.S.

That said - closest nations to be considered Russian allies in Europe are Germany and France - in that order. I can see Russia now trying to develop better ties with them, while gradually starting to ignore the U.S.


As isolated as the South Ossetian war was, it looks like it has bagan a process of restructuring of Russian priorities and partnerships. Russia will start to lean further from the G8 and other US-led clubs, and closer to individual nations who want to parter with Russia to insure uninterrupted access to Russian energy resources.