Iraq Unloading WMD Into Syria.

Originally posted by tad6015

when we get nuked we will know.....

I'm afraid thats whats gonna have to happen for some here to see the light (no pun intended)

Of course they will say its a PNAC conspiracy to stir up the populance into taking over the world.

[edit on 11-6-2004 by Phoenix]

Hi !! I'm new here !!

Nice to meet ya all !!

I live in France and I would like to know your opinions about WMD ... do you think they exist ?

They saw the quarter....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's obvious from the above link that we saw and knew exactly where the weapons were and also viewed them being dismantled. So, do you think we stopped viewing them being loaded on those 'tarp covered trucks' and drove off?
So, once again, my question is: Did we know the WMD were not in Iraq and invade them anyway?

More interesting questions about Iraq. Who now is in control of the oil fields in Iraq?


NeedTruth

[edit on 12-6-2004 by NeedTruth]

[edit on 12-6-2004 by NeedTruth]

From the ATS link NeedTruth provided, Story on rocket engines found in Jordan

The briefing contained satellite photographs that demonstrated the speed with which Saddam dismantled his missile and WMD sites before and during the war. Council members were shown photographs of a ballistic missile site outside Baghdad in May 2003, and then saw a satellite image of the same location in February 2004, in which facilities had disappeared.

No NeedTruth they did not see the "quarter" they saw dismantling of buildings and equipment, thats very apparent by the statement above - my assertion that a covered "quarter cannot be seen by photograpic recon still stands - all we saw was trucks going over the border with increased frequency in the run-up to the invasion - but the only way to find out what exactly they contained was to have human assets on the ground - which we did not have in place prior to the invasion.

Phoenix,

Do you ever read my entire post before you reply? By your replies, it's apparent you read my first sentence and then base your reply on this.

Read it again entirely and answer.

"So, do you think we stopped viewing them being loaded on those 'tarp covered trucks' and driving off?"

We all know you can track a vehicle using satellite, coupled with spy planes and various other means. You dont need to be physically on the ground or at the border to track the whereabouts of a vehicle. Come on. Do some research on public known military surveillance technologies available and methods used and you will see this is hard to believe.

We knew they werent there when we went in.

NeedTruth

NeedTruth I do read your posts, but disagree with your final point completely.
The most recent story out in the news specifically states movement of convoys after the start of hostilities. As for satillite imagery and elint if you knew as much as you say you do about the subject then you would realize that they are easily spoofed by deceptive movements and subterfuge by the very forces that know they are under surveillence, time after time this has been demonstrated but you continue to fall into the trap that 8 years of cuts in Humint have caused - an over reliance on sensor defined data that is only as reliable as the enemy leads us to believe. Yes they saw trucks going across a border both before and after hostilities started - can you without a doubt say they in fact contained any or all of Saddams WMD - no you can't, we can only suspect that this is the case. So your assertion that the US knew without a doubt that Saddam had no WMD has a great big hole in it.

Besides the fact that it was up to Saddam to prove he did not possess WMD according to UN resolutions, not the other way round as you seem to indicate, obviously he may have capitulated on the subject to save his own skin prior to the invasion if he was 100% successful in getting rid of his WMD - his action indicate otherwise.

Well, when the UN starts saying (link) the WMD has moved, when will you dyed in the wool lefties begin to take notice? The vaunted UN is now saying that WMD was moved from Iraq. Is this a conspiracy? Did GW take over power at the UN through subterfuge? Maybe, they all just feel guilty for the fact that the oil for food program was rife with corruption and grafts.

Will the left wing get behind Bush, now that they have had mustard and nerve gas IUD's and now the UN saying the WMD was moved?

Variable


[edit on 6/12/2004 by Variable]

[edit on 6/12/2004 by Variable]

Originally posted by Phoenix
As for satillite imagery and elint if you knew as much as you say you do about the subject then you would realize that they are easily spoofed by deceptive movements and subterfuge

I do know a little something about satellite technology, but obviously you havent done your research. Keep in mind the date on these links are anywhere between the 1950's to 2001. Also keep in mind, if you follow or know anything about public available technologies, that technology, especially in imaging continues to improve by leaps and bounds each year.

www.iis.ee.ic.ac.uk...
Global Hawk
www.eetimes.com...

The satellites short-comings is complimented with the spy plane, Project Echelon, HAARP, Spinset, BSTS, SBWS, Spinset, Light sat, Joint Stars, etc, etc. Just to name a few.

True, they published that they cut major funding for Humint. This does not in any way they have in any of the above mentioned projects. Heck, Humint has been around for since I believe 1960 or so. Time to reduce the funding on the outdated and apply it in to the more advanced.

Motor vehicle tracking -
�Similarly, Vehicle Recognition Systems have been developed which can identify a car number plate then track the car around a city using a computerised geographic information system. Such systems are now commercially available.�

Scientific and Technological Options Assessment (STOA)
�An Appraisal of the Technologies of Political Control�
September 1998


Not to mention this article. If you could see through walls two stories up a building in the 90's. Im sure by now you can see through the thickness of a tarp.

See-through-walls surveillance -
"Three high-tech labs are in the final stages of developing a new form of radar device that can see through walls by broadcasting radio signals across broad bands of the spectrum to pinpoint a hidden suspect... [Raytheon] promises MARS [Motion and Ranging Sensor] will spot a lurking fugitive 100 feet away. That kind of range � achieved by adapting military missile guidance technology � is enough to find someone hiding two stories up inside a building...

�Raytheon�s Motion and Ranging Sensor system scientists at Georgia Tech are working on [another] system � a lightweight through-the-wall radar system that fits inside a flashlight... �We�re trying to reach every policeman on the beat,� said Gene Greneker, the scientist at the Georgia Tech Research Institute who developed the radar flashlight... The demand for these products is high, and the National Institute of Justice has placed through-the-wall surveillance at the top of its scientific funding priority list for the past two years.�

Sightings
�New X-Ray Vision Will Let Cops See Through Walls�
July 21, 1999


Gait identification system
�A new security system being developed in Britain can identify individuals by the unique way in which they walk. Unlike faces and irises, someone�s gait can be spotted from a great distance with low-resolution cameras and so be observed from just about any angle. It is also very difficult to mask...�

New Scientist
�Tripped Up: Watch How You Walk, You May Incriminate Yourself�

Just because they publish they cut major funding for Humint does not mean they havent increased it in others.
If you still disbelieve, take a gander at the US patient online database. I'm sure you will find some amazing patients related to this topic that arent spoken of mainstream....

Now I am off to enjoy the rest of my weekend.

Good day,
NeedTruth

I know all about Synthetic Aperature Radar and its ability to penetrate ground as well as buildings but and this is again a big but...........can it tell the difference between a brick and a brick of explosives of similar density or do they both appear as "bricks" ...........thought so.

Tracking vehicles by use of computer interpretation of plates is a nice feature so long as there are not 20 vehicles parked in garage that occasionly trade plates - you know kinda like finding the bean under one of the three containers game.

There is always a way to foil sensor tech - measure and countermeasure, its a game as old as mankind.


This subject about sensor tech proving or disproving Saddams possesion of WMD reminds me of a saying thats been around as long as sophisticated electronics,

GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT

[edit on 12-6-2004 by Phoenix]

Originally posted by Phoenix
I know all about Synthetic Aperature Radar
Tracking vehicles

Now that you touched on 2 of the 15+ types of surveillance I referenced in links. Another 13+ to go.

Oh yea, don't forget that patient database.....

That should keep you busy for a while or at least until you come to the realization that given all the technologies in our surveillance arsenal, there is a very high probability that we knew all along where they were.

Oh yea forgot to mention, since when did ballistic missles start being manufactured using bricks and morter, I always thought metal....

[edit on 12-6-2004 by NeedTruth]

Originally posted by NeedTruth
That should keep you busy for a while or at least until you come to the realization that given all the technologies in our surveillance arsenal, there is a very high probability that we knew all along where they were.

Ok as author of the thread I ask you to keep playing "whos got the longest pecker" game with Phoenix over surveillance technology, go create a new thread if you want to feel so great about your scientific knowledge. Phoenix was only trying to support the original point of the thread.

The point of the thread is that mounting evidence shows that Saddam payed Syria to take on its WMD program before the war, and that the prewar WMD stockpiles lie buried in either Lebannon or on Syrian airbases.

You bring up a valuable question but it has already been adressed. The administration and intelligence bodies do have a handle on where the WMD are, but they are understandably hesistant to declare this before the election. The questions over why wasnt the convoy stopped, or the possible calls for a Syrian disarmament are too hot to handle right now.

Sure there is a probability of a conspiracy as you suggest, but I subscribe to the idea that we know where they are and are using back channels to quietly ask the Syrians to disarm or hand them over. Just because the action isnt plastered on CNN doesnt mean that nothing is going on.

I keep thinkng about the new world order....biblical accounts of the end as we know it....

ask whats the biggest obsticle sp to the new world order...to me It is AMERICA AND ITS CONSTITUTION.....

You want conspiracey.....islam on the rise...1/2 good . 1/2 bad stirring up all kinds o hate ..witha good pr service making U.S. look like a big bully

china , sitting quietly on the sidlines....gulping oil , n gas and other rescources...no ones marching down their door bout the world bank or qyoto sp....while they modernise their military .watch us do our thing so they can counter it if they want


the russian's ...have gotten U.S. TO pay to dismantle their old stuff that may not have even worked anyway...we give em loans...we ive em food, we invest......corruption is rampant....russian mob is quite a force in the world...


Europe has bascically united....and like america of old..opened its doors to the 3 rd world....the islamists came in droves...france, spain....elsewhere,

pushing an ajenda.....saying we come in peace..want a good life..ect ect...

but it hides the bad guys...the " clerics'..spew hate from sermons on the mosque....THE u.sa. this.western that..evil...


if the new world order is to come about.....America is gonna have to bet either taken out, or dis- throwned as the world leader,.....


whos to say like a tom clancy plot..china , europe , russia .....


have been busy little bee's..........thats the conspiracy I believe in...


our biggest allies are questioning U.S. ...and the prison abuse is only but a fraction ....they would all love to see America stumble and fall


AS they are all Jellous...sp .....mho

Seekerof:

Oh look, and this just in from May of this year from UNMOVIC:
The UN Did Have WMDs
Btw, need a number to call UNMOVIC yourself, try this one: 212-963-3022. Be nice, be polite....

Okay, hold the phone. You SLAM the United Nations for everything else, you call them useless and irrelevant and you say the inspectors were wrong.

THEN, you turn around and use UN documents to PROVE YOUR CASE?

Pfft. And not only that but the info says nothing concrete.

From your links:

In his testimony, the head of the Iraq Survey Group noted that the Group continued to look for weapons of mass destruction. He also said he did not believe that the Survey Group had sufficient information and insight at that time to make final judgements with confidence as to Iraq�s weapons of mass destruction programmes and to determine the truth of their existence. He said that more work had to be done to gather critical information about the regime, its intentions and its capabilities...

In general, from 1999 to 2002 Iraq procured a variety of dual-use biological
and chemical items and materials, including chemicals, equipment and spare parts. To date, UNMOVIC has found no evidence that these were used for proscribed chemical or biological weapon purposes. Although some of the goods may have been acquired by Iraq outside the framework of mechanisms established under Security Council resolutions, most of them were later declared by Iraq to UNMOVIC in its semi-annual monitoring declarations...

NOWHERE in that UN pdf do they say that "Saddam had WMDs". They say there are some questions as to what was destroyed and what wasn't, and that they're not sure yet. Though, somehow, by reading exactly the same thing I did, you ARE sure.

Your other link.

The Baghdad missile site contained a range of WMD and dual-use components, UN officials said. They included missile components, reactor vessel and fermenters � the latter required for the production of chemical and biological warheads.
"It raises the question of what happened to the dual-use equipment, where is it now and what is it being used for," Ewen Buchanan, Perricos's spokesman, said. "You can make all kinds of pharmaceutical and medicinal products with a fermenter. You can also use it to breed anthrax...

..."The problem for us is that we don't know what may have passed through these yards and other yards elsewhere," Buchanan said. "We can't really assess the significance and don't know the full extent of activity that could be going on there or with others of Iraq's neighbors.""

Not in any way, shape or form is that ironclad, I don't know what you're reading.

variable:

Well, when the UN starts saying (link) the WMD has moved, when will you dyed in the wool lefties begin to take notice? The vaunted UN is now saying that WMD was moved from Iraq. Is this a conspiracy?

No, it's not a conspiracy. It's called reading the entire pdf file before blathering on about what it says. Nowhere in that link is there anything said about any FACT that Iraq moved their WMDs. It's all about "components" and "dual use items". Read the thing before you comment.

Originally posted by Jakomo
Okay, hold the phone. You SLAM the United Nations for everything else, you call them useless and irrelevant and you say the inspectors were wrong.

THEN, you turn around and use UN documents to PROVE YOUR CASE?

Well Jakomo if you understood debating you would see that seekerof is just trying to discredit you by using your own sources against you.

Youve been using the UN and David Kay all throughout this thread, and by using the UN against you, seekerof proves a point.

Youve been sitting here and claiming that no matter what this transaction didnt happen, and that Saddam had no WMD, and yet even the UN wont make such a bold claim.

Quit cluttering up this thread with your dribble.

Agent47:

Youve been sitting here and claiming that no matter what this transaction didnt happen, and that Saddam had no WMD, and yet even the UN wont make such a bold claim.

Quit cluttering up this thread with your dribble.

And yet his links prove nothing still... The UN makes no such "bold claim".

However, you and Seeker keep holding on to the belief that there's WMD in Iraq.

And an Easter Bunny. And Santa.


And if I used any UN sources in my side of the argument, Seeker would scoff at them. "The UN, bah!"



[edit on 15-6-2004 by Jakomo]

Originally posted by Jakomo

And yet his links prove nothing still... The UN makes no such "bold claim".

However, you and Seeker keep holding on to the belief that there's WMD in Iraq.

Whats been said here all along from the start is that Iraq HAD I repeat HAD WMD and its in Syria now. Of course the UN inspectors cant find enough evidence in Iraq because its been REMOVED - at least most of it but........errant sarin shells do crop up now and then don't they?



[edit on 15-6-2004 by Phoenix]

Phoenix:

Whats been said here all along from the start is that Iraq HAD I repeat HAD WMD and its in Syria now. Of course the UN inspectors cant find enough evidence in Iraq because its been REMOVED - at least most of it but........errant sarin shells do crop up now and then don't they?

ONE errant shell containing Sarin gas, not shells.

As for the fact that Iraq had WMD and they're in Syria now, are you reading the same thread as the rest of us?

Is a missile engine a Weapon Of Mass Destruction? Is scrap metal a Weapon Of Mass Destruction? How about (oooh) radioactive scrap metal?

Nowhere in ANY of the links people have provided does it say that WMD HAVE BEEN FOUND. Find it for me if it does, because I have read all the links and NADA.


This war was sold to you because of apparent "clear and imminent danger".

If you still believe Iraq posed a credible threat to the world's largest military superpower, then you have some serious issues, because the last 2 years have shown that to be a total lie.

Iraq is a larger threat to the U.S. NOW than it was in 2002. Because it is now a rallying cry, a galvanizing force for all repressive regimes and terrorists everywhere.

All they have to do is say "The reasons the US invaded Iraq were total fabrications, now we need to make sure our country is safe from them so let's start stocking up on nukes. They won't pre-emptively strike OUR COUNTRY by snubbing the U.N., we'll make them pay. Maybe we should even pre-empt them when the opportunity arises.".

Originally posted by Jakomo

Is a missile engine a Weapon Of Mass Destruction?

And you ask us if we are reading the same thread as you?

The point is that a missile engine from Iraq is part of a greater weapons program in violation of 1441.

So although it isnt a WMD, the missile engine evidence proves the point of the thread. Sizeable illegal transactions between Iraq and Syria.

While this article is not from a source I have heard of it has some good points and has an extensive list of sources attached.

It is a very interesting read and seems to jive with the info posted by Agent 47 to start the thread.

IMO there is plenty of evidence that at least some of WMD has found its way into Syria.

Weapons of Mass Destruction

Possibly the first noticeable person to warn that Iraqi weapons of mass destruction could go to Syria was former UN inspector Richard Butler. He warned that when he worked in Iraq between 1997 and 1999, he saw intelligence indicating that suspicious containers were routinely moved in and out of Iraq from Syria, and that there was evidence they contained banned materials. Few realized what an impact Syria's role would play later in the future.

Intelligence gathering, including defector testimony, indicated that even in August 2002, before Saddam let UN inspectors back in, indicated that Iraq was still receiving WMD components and materials through Syria. [5] Around this same time, Iraqi officials who defected to Europe in 2002 claimed that Iraq had ordered three shipments of Scud missiles from the Czech Republic, using Syria. Thinking the missiles and components were going to Syria, the Czechs had no problem supplying. The defectors say the Czechs were tricked, and that the first shipment of missiles had already arrived in 2002 in Iraq. [6]

Syria's Role in Destabilizing Iraq

Originally posted by JacKatMtn
While this article is not from a source I have heard of it has some good points and has an extensive list of sources attached.

Amazing. This article sums up what these 10 pages cover and then some.

I would quote a few lines but that would probably end up having me quote over 2 pages of evidence.