Could ATS do anything in support of Gary McKinnon?

Gary McKinnon

The man who went searching for secret NASA files now faces the real prospect of up to 60 years in a US prison!

Now that this young man has had his appeal against extradition rejected by the highest legal body in his country might there be some way ATS could get behind efforts to help him? Whether or not you agree with his precise methods or conclusions you've got to give it to him, he epitomizes the determination to get to the bottom of things characteristic of ATS.

(Perhaps watch at least the first video on this thread - his own testimony - before making your mind up.)

NASA Hacker Loses Extradition Appeal

Surely ATS could do something?

Just my opinion, but this is not an activist community nor a politically active entity.

Mr. McKinnon's actions have landed him in trouble and as much as I disagree with the magnitude of the charges or the spirit with which they are brought, it seems he should seek support from those who accept his actions were driven by something other than idle curiosity.

You're not going to find much of that here. And remember, until he got caught, he was no 'hero' of the campaign for disclosure; that is a spin which seemed to surface as soon as he realized that the US government intended to make an example of him.

Uh, he broke the law big time, dude. It seems like the majority of ATS holds the viewpoint (at least when talking about war, interrogation, law enforcement, etc) that the ends never justify the means when the means involve violating the law (man's or nature's). The same holds true here... whatever his intention was, he violated some very serious and very important laws designed to protect us as a nation and us as individuals. No sympathy from me towards him whatsoever.

Reply to burdman

Uh, the issue is one of proportionality, Dude.

...whatever his intention was, he violated some very serious and very important laws designed to protect us as a nation and us as individuals.

There is more to this than meets the eye. He has been treated with undue severity due to the embarrassment he has caused in respect of the way the computers he gained access to were left with blank administrator passwords. He maintains that the charges concerning his damaging computers are trumped up: he merely sought and opened files.

Early on it transpired that he could only face serious charges if he'd damaged a computer to the value of $5,000. Lo and behold, guess what they're charging him with - $5,000 worth of damage to each computer he accessed. They're also saying he left the computers vulnerable to attack, which is untrue as they had no passwords in the first place.

As I said, there is more to this than meets the eye on first examination. I understand that national security is an important issue, but people like this just looking for answers to UFO-related questions are not a threat. The whole thing is a fiasco.

I've been a member here for a few years always sat out on the edge I've read the threads seen how people are treated on here and kept myself from joining the debate, for quite few reasons.
But to be honest I couldn't believe the response you have got from Burdman and Maxmars.

This place seems to be where hoaxes reign supreme...it's become a bit of joke lately hasn't it??? I thought i might find some answers but instead I found something else.
You know, Gary McKinnon might be many things and he might have done wrong but what the **** has happened to America that it can try and lock someone up for 60 years for looking at something on a computer by trumping up some charges to punish him.
Firstly it is quite clear the charges are lies...and a mis use of the terror laws......oh and the fact Nasa and the US Govt have been covering up a little secret from the world, no one going to question that???
Two wrongs don't make a right but is it ok to Lie to congress and the american people about all the technology they have locked away when it could be used for the benefits of mankind??? (not to mention the 2 wars ohhhh and don't get me started the list is as long as my arm)
The thing you guys don't seem to understand is that the way things are going you lot on here could soon find yourself charged under the phoney terror laws just for your chatter on this site.
You people on here want to try showing some compassion occasionally.
Pauseforthought I'd help if i could but i don't know that anything is going to save him now. It doesn't seem that publicity could shame this administration or sway the muppets that voted it in. I hope he gets off, i really do. He gave us another piece of the jigsaw and we should be grateful to him for that....as for bringing it here maybe maxmars is right this place is just for photoshopped pictures and tall tales written by school children it seems.

Where are they holding him? I read about it earlier but now I can't remember.

If it's not Cuba, someone order a 10mb/s wideband Satellite connection and set it up on one of those miniature yet high-specification "palmtops." Smuggle it through hidden inside a hollowed out copy of The Old Testament, sealed shut with super-glue. Prison guards are scared of best-selling historical fiction, they won't check in there.

No.

ATS does not endorse any individual or movement. It's well documented in the T&C's.

Plus, SimonGray has worked hard for ATS and I cannot see him burning Rome to support a criminal

reply to post by pause4thought


They had a debate/talk about it on radio 2 in the uk today and came up with some good points.

I personally think it's extremely harsh and an abuse of the terror laws and OTT.

What they were saying was instead of locking him up, why not work with him or offer him a consultancy position?
He clearly exposed weaknesses that shouldn't have been there.


And i agree, Why lock the guy up for a lifetime for exposing flaws that shouldn't have been there?
They pay consultancy firms/I.T guys to do exactly that.
They guy must be a genius on a computer and why not just make it more to that end?

Far too harsh IMHO.



[edit on 30/7/08 by blupblup]

Reply to Jerome Newton

I'm not ashamed to say I was quite moved by some of your comments.

It doesn't seem that publicity could shame this administration or sway the muppets that voted it in.

I hear your frustration, but, as they say, 'nothing ventured, nothing gained'. Perhaps we shouldn't underestimate the potential impact of a concerted effort to at least publicize this travesty of justice. It transpired last night that Gary has appealed to the European Court of Human Rights against his extradition.

I've no idea whether the ATS owners might be up for this. Something would need to start soon for maximum impact, however.

As to some the responses you've read making you want to leave ATS I can only say that if people with your serious attitude leave, it's one up for the detractors.

As to those happy to see this guy rot in gaol for the rest of his life, I won't criticize you for holding or expressing your opinions. The guy admits he broke the law, so I understand where you're coming from. But have you considered the subliminal message behind the authorities' reaction? Dig too deeply, and your life won't be worth living.


When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


Martin Niemöller, concentration camp survivor

( Source: en.wikipedia.org... )


Shall we add another verse?

When they came for the hackers...

I believe he is a spy

We have some very silly people on here. I'm sorry. He is not accused of spying. Plain, unadulterated ignorance.

Wake up.

Maybe there is a real arguement on what he is facing. 70 years in prison?
I am no legal expert, but I think it is harsh.

ATS always adhere to its motto "deny ignorance". somehow, someways, maybe ATS may support in a legal way which would not violate T&C.

IMO of course

Just for updates, perhaps there maybe a last hope for him?

Gary's solicitors have applied to the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) in Strasbourg for interim relief. This could be decided on within ten days or twenty days.

Source

This should answer your question:

Why doesn't ATS allow "Activist" Recruiting?

pause4thought, The fact does remain no matter how you spin it that this person is accused of committing a crime. He must stand trial in order to either be exonerated or convicted of this crime. A crime by the way that he has admitted to.



The reasons for his criminal activity aside he must stand trial and face his accusers. He may be convicted, he may also be convicted of a lesser charge. A jury may also decide that his crime does not warrant such a long prison stint and he may get a lesser punishment.

I don't think that ATS should get involved with this young man's legal troubles. I don't think that ATS should align themselves with someone that is so desperate to seek the truth that they are willing to break the laws of other countries in order to get it. There are legal ways to get disclosure. FOIA while tedious and lawyer intensive is the proper way to go about getting the required government documents that this man was looking for.

[edit on 7/31/2008 by whatukno]

In my defense, and perhaps that of burdman, if he will allow me.

You must understand. This is about one country commitment to support the anti-terrorism laws of another. The United Kingdom was morally obliged to allow the extradition to take place because the US declared the breach was committed in the vein of terrorism.

Most don't contend that this is not an exageration to be sure, however, the legal battle must ensue nevertheless. I think Mr. McKinnon's defense dropped the ball in allowing him to tacitly confess to the crime. By doing so, the prosecution no longer needs to bother with the "means, motive, and opportunity" aspect of proving their case. In fact, there case is already made for them. He confessed.

Had he not confessed, they would have had to 'prove' that his intentions were in fact malicious and could be construed as exploiting a weakness to pursue nefarious purposes, be it personally driven or. in this case, driven by the impetus of a UFO disclosure movement to which he himself professes to be a party. There would have been hope in minimizing that perception and perhaps lessening the charges brought.

As it stands now, he faces a charge which has, as it's evidenciary base, classified information. I find it highly unlikely that this will be a jury trial. A judge will review the classified material and determine the extent of the damage done to determine the degree of punishment he merits.

Not all judges are uneducated in the ways of high-tech. He or she may feel the claims of the state are at best disingenuous considering the system was woefully unprotected and that, all by itself, invited trespass. This could weigh in Mr. McKinnon's favor. But don't count on it.

Personally I believe the less press this case got, the more likely he will face a minor charge, perhaps a fine and time served. The more public, and political, this gets, the more harsh the treatment will be. So in effect, the best thing that could be done for him is to simmer down, and wait it out.

But, personally, I am disinclined to consider Mr. McKinnon a hero, for one he raised his case to celebrity status out of apparent hubris, and he is not the mastermind hacker some have attempted to convey he is; also, his transgression, more something our of a after school special ala 'Wargames' was not some victorious blow for the disclosure movement - in essence he made no 'discovery' that wouldn't have been forthcoming via legal means.

In the end this is a criminal case, and such matters are best left to those we implicitly entrust with the tools to resolve. Prosecution will be the standard 'over the top' case, defense will be the 'get real' script, and in the end the judge will probably say, enough already, we don;t have time for this dog and pony show, and move on. UNLESS of course the media/Hollywood gets involved, because there natural tendency is to elevate it either to the level of "David vs. Goliath" or "Uncle SAM vs the small-minded terrorist nut case." Either way making the judge visible to the public does not work in favor of McKinnon's fate.

Let's put it another way.

Let's say,Hypothetically, That the PTB/agents/whatever come for all whistle-blowers on ATS and other forums and in other mediums.
All the disclosure guys and whoever else they feel like.

They say they are all charged with revealing sensitive info. and talking about things that they swore/pledged not too.
All are facing 50+ years in jail for this.

Would all you rather militant-minded folks feel the same then?

If they arrested John Keel?

If they arrested Alex Jones?

If they arrested Dr. Greer?

If they arrested Art Bell?

Anyone who they wished, would you guys be ok with this?

reply to post by blupblup


The fact that those you mention are NOT in jail has often served towards some debates that they are agents of disinformation or 'plants' to keep the masses ignorant or distracted from the truth.

You're point is well-taken, but nevertheless, Mr. McKinnon does not figure as one who's status rises to the level of these others, at least that's what I think.

I feel for him though, because I know he is being victimized by the times, the political climate, and the public opinion machine. It can;t be comfortable being pulled in 90 different directions at once.

reply to post by Maxmars



I'm not saying he is even the same thing as these guys, not at all, my point is though that if this guy can get 60+ years for trying to find secret documents or proof of ufo's, covert activity or whatever, then what's to stop them eventually coming after these other guys?

The people i listed are not those i follow or listen to or believe, but just throwing examples out there.
The point remains, i think this kind of action/reaction to these kind of "crimes", is just a bit harsh and could eventually filter down to the level of some here on ats and elsewhere in the fields and subjects we discuss on ats.

I think this is bad news.

I wasn't actually going to come back....thought i would continue reading the thread and i actually find that thanks to your reply Pause4thought that i chewed it over and might actually stay........i need to find more patience from somewhere....but i felt moved to reply.
I was a little animated yesterday. I want to say thanks to you and BlurpBlurp for taking up this cause and defending it.
And i have to say thanks to maxmars for spending so much time in the defence of his position, clearly we disagree but you feel as strongly as we do and that's got to mean something.

The only thing i can say to carry on this thread is that we all kind of agree that Gary Mackinnon has crossed a line and he probably himself will accept that he is going to get his wrists slapped, that's the way it goes, he got careless, but one of the many points is this, the anti terror laws are clearly being mis used....my definition of a terrorist is someone who kills/blows up/etc innocent people without warning.
This case is just evidence of the misuse of this law and how we all could one day be charged under it for disagreeing with whatever and no one should condone it's use for punishing this case.
Some of you may remember a couple of years ago how an old guy in his 80's was dragged out of a labour party conference and arrested here in blighty because he voiced his disagreement...he'd been a member of the labour party for something like 60 years...his freedom of speech went right out the window. Clearly he is not a terrorist so why should anti terror laws be used to stop people from expressing their democratic right?
You don't arrest shop lifters under the anti terror laws.....yet so why a computer hacker???
I've wandered from the subject but feel justified in showing just how mad this is.........i mean 60 years in prison for snooping on secrets he might have got less time if he had shot Dubya with a pistol...do you see how it doesn't make sense.............How can anyone on here of all places just say it's ok to do that? regardless of T&C's
The conspiracy is that the Anti terror laws that are in place are being mis used, end of, and someone needs to take a stand.
I hope those in the european union at the courts of human rights have a little more spine and aren't under Dubya's Yoke.......(i nearly said American but i couldn't bring myself to blame a whole continent for the misdeeds of a few renegades) like we are here in the UK and can over turn this hideous farce, I'm sure, in a fair court of law, this case would be thrown out.
As for the evidence of what he found....I for one believe him, he doesn't strike me as the kind of person to just make it up (unlike a lot of whats on here).....but on the subject of Aliens we don't have much more than testimony as proof, most of us have seen them but people only seem to believe it if an Astronaut makes the claim.
If a crime has been perpetrated it is that NASA and the rest of the Govt agencies are keeping the truth of their true state of technology from you and everyone else. Prosecute that under the anti terror laws, can't we the people bring them to book????