The Dark Knight Social Commentary

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage



Plenty of bad guys, including the mob, left to stir the pot.

So know its not a victory unless it results in perfection?
Are you a democrat by chance?

Many people died. I don't think those alive balance the situation out.

Far less than if he hadnt been there, or hadnt fought the joker.

The city is saved, yes, for that day and yet it will never be the same after what the Joker did, neither will the society that inhabits it. As is the case when terrorist successfully commit disasterous acts.

And yet, so long as the society survives and moves on, Batman and the city win. He wanted to watch it all burn, and he didnt get to.

this movie was simply a masterpiece of story telling performance and ethical dilemnas
it elevated the 'superhero comic' genre to a place few will ever reach.
good film

reply to post by Shazam The Unbowed


So know its not a victory unless it results in perfection?

Oh no, that's a good point, this is not what I intended to say.

I'm just trying to explain why I think there was no victory, why in these situations no one wins, and why though he was caught the Joker still won something (the way he changed things).

Just my opinion.

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
reply to post by Shazam The Unbowed

 

So know its not a victory unless it results in perfection?

Oh no, that's a good point, this is not what I intended to say.

I'm just trying to explain why I think there was no victory, why in these situations no one wins, and why though he was caught the Joker still won something (the way he changed things).

Just my opinion.

See the whole point about The Batman though, is that as long as he keeps fighting, he wins. Hes knows hes fighting a war that cant be "won" in the conventional sense (again a paralell to bush) and that the fight will always continue. But every morening when he goes to sleep, if both he and the city are still there, he wins. See to me, the only way the Joker wins, if if
1) one of the boats had detoaned the other
2) gotham burned.

Cause the truth is he wanted to prove that at the end of the day, the "civlised people" were animals, just like him, he wanted to drag everyone down to his level. he failed, even the most uncivilised of the civilised rejected the option of going joker.

Originally posted by Torsten
reply to post by Cool Hand Luke

 

Your post really saddens me.

Well the thread was about the social commentary in the the dark knight, I simply gave my 2 pennies worth. I am sorry that saddens you that people have differing opinions but cheer up buddy, they are only opinions, just like the rest of this reply

All humans are animals and just because these people are criminals doesn't mean you have the right to go around treating them cruelly (unless, of course, you're the Dark Knight).

Really? So let's say a guy blows up a hospital in real life, should we worry about hurting his feelings?

As far as your government comments go.....oh really? If you honestly think that then....well, you should definitely get out more and open your mind a little.

Tell me what has the government done to you personally to make you think that they have in some way violated your rights? Oh and I get out plenty

Governments, in general, do not give a flying fantastic hoot about you or your well-being. You are nothing more than fodder for their conflicts.

Well thats your opinion. How many people in Government have you spoken with? If it is the case that the public is just fodder for the governments' conflicts why then do they give the choice whether or not you want to fight for your country? Why do people keep living longer and longer? Why does health care get better and better?

You seem to be of the mind that the people in public office transform into some non human entity as soon as they take office. In reality, these human-like entities are simply human like you or me.

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage

Batman could have stopped the killing and turned himself in, but he doesn't.

Let's say this movie happened in real life, do you honestly believe people like joker that say I will stop killing if such and such happens, that they will actually stop killing? Especially if the "if" is if their only opposing force is neutralized? History says otherwise.

[edit on 22-7-2008 by Cool Hand Luke]

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage

Originally posted by mike dangerously
I agree with The Joker's belief that once you remove the trappings of civilization people will do everything they can to save themselves.

I agree and I love how they showed this truth.

The Joker constantly gives people choices. Do the men in the bank have to kill each other? No, but they are greedy.

Does the comissioner have a choice in leaving the Joker in a room with Batman to be un-lawfully beaten? Yes, but he chooses the easiest and most brutal way of getting the information he desperately needs at the time.

Batman could have stopped the killing and turned himself in, but he doesn't.

I'm not sure what I think of the boat scene, part of me is more inclined to think they would have blown each other to bits.

There is no doubt in my mind that they wolud have blown each other up.As Robert E. Howard once wrote: "Civilization is unnatural.It is a whim of circumstace. And Barbarism must always ultimately triumph."

reply to post by Cool Hand Luke


Let's say this movie happened in real life, do you honestly believe people like joker that say I will stop killing if such and such happens, that they will actually stop killing? Especially if the "if" is if their only opposing force is neutralized? History says otherwise.

I wasn't commenting on if the Joker would really stop, I sincerely doubt it. I'm simply saying the Joker gives people choices, and he won so often because he knows those choices will be geared toward ones self-interest.

Originally posted by Quazga

See, I think that the Joker's point is that we are ALL Animals at heart.

I agree to a certain extent. The boat scene is where that changes. When people have the choice to kill others to save themselves, that scene IMO shows the transition from animal to human.

The question that I would have, what made these people turn into animals

Well to quote Alfred, "some men just want to see the world burn." I think that is true on this planet. I think the better question would be is there anything that could happen for these people to stop thinking that way?

and is it fair to treat animals with complete disregard.

Some people if you give them enough rope, they will hang you with it. Then the question would be how much rope should be given to these people?

Yep they have been monitoring phones since they were invented. But only with just cause and FISA court approval.

I think people forget that how much power they have because if you are brought to court with evidence gathered without just cause, the case is thrown out.

That being said. I'd have to agree with you here. For example, the monitoring of phone calls which leave the country for some reason doesn't scare me at all. It makes good sense if you ask me.

Also, I don't think that in the monitoring of these calls, that they are even worried about the pot head calling his dealer, or the conspiracy theorist claiming 9/11 was an inside job. I think "they" are looking for threats to national security.

Absolutely, couldn't agree more. But don't tell that to some of the posters on ats because they feel they are worth "their" time

I also think it is a slippery slope though, and does have the potential for being abused, and therefore should be openly subject to oversight.

I agree. But I think this is why they gave the responsibility to the major phone companies so the customers could take the service providers to court if they felt they were being wrongfully treated. That's why I said "more like Morgan (insert major phone companies)"

I agree it wasn't a pro-obama piece, but when I saw that scene, my brain made the switch, (which is what inspired this thread to begin with), and I realized that I myself would feel more comfortable with Obama monitoring everyone than Bush... I don't know why, and I don't state that it would be any different, I just felt that way during that scene, and found it odd that My position changed based on WHO was watching.

Wow, that is a perspective I would've never thought about . Thank you for clarifying that. I thought you meant something completely different. But you are right though, many people have lost all trust for this administration and they would feel more inclined to trust the government to do these things if it was a different administration running the show.

I think this last piece of your response is as politically blinded as my slight attempt at humor with Morgan Obama.

Sorry about that, it wasn't really towards you. And shame on me for not picking up that interesting perspective you gave. Forgive me, I do accidentally step onto that soap box once in a while

Anyhow, thanks for the very thoughtful response!

Thank you for your interesting incite.

btw, did you hear that Batman (Chrstian Bale) was picked up on assault charges! Crazy

I just heard it from you hear. But here's an article about it. Crazy!!
www.wnbc.com...

[edit on 22-7-2008 by Cool Hand Luke]

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage


I wasn't commenting on if the Joker would really stop, I sincerely doubt it. I'm simply saying the Joker gives people choices, and he won so often because he knows those choices will be geared toward ones self-interest.

Point taken and totally agree. Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part. Btw that boat scene, I thought for sure one of them would blow up. But your right he was counting on people's self interest to make his point.

reply to post by Cool Hand Luke


No problem.

I'm seeing the film again soon and the more I think about the boat scene the more I doubt the lack of hysteria or one of them not choosing to push the button.

[edit on 22-7-2008 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage


I wasn't commenting on if the Joker would really stop, I sincerely doubt it. I'm simply saying the Joker gives people choices, and he won so often because he knows those choices will be geared toward ones self-interest.

Im not so sure its merely a question of self interest. Self interest, in and of itself, doesnt lead to criminality. Its when that self interest in untempered by empathy. And I think thats why the joker lost. He doesnt have any empathy, and therfore he didnt understand how it might bear on a personal decisions.

reply to post by Shazam The Unbowed


I agree with this as well. The reason the people not blowing themselves up surprised the Joker so is because he had no reference to emotions that would protest against our self-invested nature, which many do, I guess he was counting on people’s self-interest overriding their compassion, and in that instance he was wrong.

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage


I agree with this as well. The reason the people not blowing themselves up surprised the Joker so is because he had no reference to emotions that would protest against our self-invested nature, which many do, I guess he was counting on people’s self-interest overriding their compassion, and in that instance he was wrong.

But was he planning on empathy at all?
A sociopath is unable to empathie with anyone but themselves. Maybe he didnt undertsand the concept?

Originally posted by Shazam The Unbowed

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage


I agree with this as well. The reason the people not blowing themselves up surprised the Joker so is because he had no reference to emotions that would protest against our self-invested nature, which many do, I guess he was counting on people’s self-interest overriding their compassion, and in that instance he was wrong.

But was he planning on empathy at all?
A sociopath is unable to empathie with anyone but themselves. Maybe he didnt undertsand the concept?

I think that though being able to grasp feelings like compassion like most psychopaths the Joker was intelligent. I think he did plan on empathy, he simply thought fear and self-interest would win. I think you can tell this by the plot he sets out for the man on TV to get shot. Knowing the man will be protected by some he also fully keeps his word is blowing the hospital up. I think he may have anticipated the man not being shot because he takes that opportunity to speak with Dent. Also he still makes plans to blow up the boats- keeping his own detonator, incase empathy wins.

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage


I think that though being able to grasp feelings like compassion like most psychopaths the Joker was intelligent. I think he did plan on empathy, he simply thought fear and self-interest would win. I think you can tell this by the plot he sets out for the man on TV to get shot. Knowing the man will be protected by some he also fully keeps his word is blowing the hospital up. I think he may have anticipated the man not being shot because he takes that opportunity to speak with Dent. Also he still makes plans to blow up the boats- keeping his own detonator, incase empathy wins.

Well thats one way to interpert it. I just figured he was going to blow it up anyway. The joke was going to be that some "ordinary guy" turned himself into a murderer for nothing.

If you like the movie the original "Dark Knight Returns" from 1996 is a 4 part comic book series and it essentially launched the era of dark anti heros in comic books...

it takes place 20 years in the future with batman as an oldman, a new female robin and involves the final death of the Joker and an epic fight with good ol superman who hasn't aged a bit but is sent to reign in batman... who's vigilante behavior is "out of control"

not a comic for the squemish but not anyworse than the movie (except good ol sups getting hit by a russian nuke...lol wont say any more) , but it's where the batman your seeing on the screen returned to comics (the original batman of the 30's was actually intended to be this sort of here, but was lost to kidishness intil 86)

anyway a great read if you want to know more about the dark knight persona

[edit on 22-7-2008 by mopusvindictus]

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
If you like the movie the original "Dark Knight Returns" from 1996 is a 4 part comic book series and it essentially launched the era of dark anti heros in comic books...

it takes place 20 years in the future with batman as an oldman, a new female robin and involves the final death of the Joker and an epic fight with good ol superman who hasn't aged a bit but is sent to reign in batman... who's vigilante behavior is "out of control"

not a comic for the squemish but not anyworse than the movie (except good ol sups getting hit by a russian nuke...lol wont say any more) , but it's where the batman your seeing on the screen returned to comics (the original batman of the 30's was actually intended to be this sort of here, but was lost to kidishness intil 86)

anyway a great read if you want to know more about the dark knight persona

[edit on 22-7-2008 by mopusvindictus]

Actually I thought TDK was far more ehavily based on "the Killing Joke" by Alan Moore and Brian Bollard. Allthough Millers "year one" was a huge influence on Batman Begins.

I thought that the ship scene was meant to demonstrate the humanity of us all. Often times, we get caught up in the "Groupthink" mentality and lose sight of our own morals and values. There is ample opportunity for each ship to blow the other one up, but in the end, morality endures. This scene goes to show that even the most menacing criminals can still chose to do good, all the while ordinary citizens are simply one wrong decision and one bad day away from becoming a criminal. The juxtaposition of the two situations on the ships; the choice of the feared criminal to throw the detonator out the window, and the choice of the enboldened citizen to put down his detonator, ultimately show the good nature of people. Whether this overestimates the nature of people, I'm a bit skeptical. In any case, those who have done wrong in their past are not always "bad" people, and are not limited to doing wrong in the future.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


Not bad at all. If I could applaud you I would. I can't wait to see this movie again.